Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

not really sure what to make of these discussions… seems pretty clear that there are plenty of people committed to the liberation of palestinians who use the phrase in question innocently, though whether the governing body of the gaza strip agrees on the particulars…I’d say is less clear

so the fuck what it is infuriating to see people are falling for this shit again and again

yeah it’s a challenging situation that doesn’t exactly lend itself to sloganeering…I fully support palestinian liberation though, personally, given the recent state-sponsored massacre of innocent jews by proud anti-semites I can certainly see the argument for finding different things to say than “from the river to the sea”, which despite that very feeble essay posted upthread has a pretty convincing antisemitic history. idk, simply asking that israel not respond in kind by massacring other innocents seems like a simple enough tact to take to me. others may feel differently though I’d caution that the chosen language might be loaded and potentially politically counterproductive…just my 2 cents

thanks I'll pass it on to hamas

idk, simply asking that israel not respond in kind by massacring other innocents seems like a simple enough tact to take to me.

https://themedialine.org/top-stories/evidence-on-display-at-israels-forensic-pathology-center-confirms-hamas-atrocities/

Just in case anyone doubts the very real, very brutal atrocities committed on October 7, including against children and babies. I frankly fail to understand this as a "resistance strategy." I am at a loss. Whether or not "other things didn't work." Is this working? What was Hamas expecting? Perhaps they did want to draw Israel into a wider war, which may happen and will be very brutal. Maybe in some long game struggle this is a brilliant chess move that will bring things one step closer to a beautiful, free, multi-ethnic secular democratic Palestine. But I struggle to see how that could possibly be. We always hear that airstrikes just turn Palestinians more radical, more militantly against Israel and I think that's probably true. But why wouldn't this do exactly the same thing - not to mention atrocities committed largely against liberal to left Israelis and their children. Few people in this world have the moral certainty and courage of the 19yo victim whose speech was posted upthread.

I feel very pessimistic and dark right now. After the attack I was equally horrified at the atrocities and afraid of what Israel's likely response would do to Gaza, and the response to the response, and the quagmire war that was likely to result, and it's only getting started. And I felt horrified at the seeming rush to celebrate. This is a fucking nightmare all around. I guess that's just a vent and not a helpful post, but that's where I'm at.

v. sorry but it's 'tack'

someone call the nobel committee for pedantic sub-editing to nominate me

Unfortunately I fear we are in for a long, bloody war and a lot more death. It is all very depressing.

Hugs to all.

xxp do you know anything about Themedialine as a trustworthy source? Not particularly doubting that atrocities were committed, I'm just very wary of all these media outfits that I've never heard of and can't find any information regarding their ownership, looking at their twitter account this is the most recent post:

https://x.com/TheMediaLine/status/1715851521579979241?s=20

ugh fucking twxtter

#Iran has already been found legally liable as a state sponsor of #Hamas terrorist attacks carried out during the #SecondIntifada. The #US should now rescind its recent $6 billion prisoner release deal with Iran.#liable I #accountabilityhttps://t.co/wWYH8mcMaJ

— The Media Line (@TheMediaLine) October 21, 2023

The "war with Iran" crowd is getting very excited again. I'm sure John Bolton's dopamine levels are soaring.

Xp: the staff and board looked legit but in any case there’s plenty of other coverage

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/17/hundreds-of-israeli-bodies-remain-unidentified-10-days-after-hamas-attack

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-forensic-teams-describe-signs-torture-abuse-2023-10-15/

There’s more, it’s easy to google. There are videos taken by Hamas I won’t watch but that journalists have seen. I didn’t really want to dwell on it and it’s kind of nauseating but I just wanted to establish that there doesn’t seem to be real doubt that there was tons of intentional cruelty and brutality to civilians of the worst kind, since this initially kind of got lost in the beheaded babies controversy. I think the truth of this needs to be stated and not lost in the mix.

All I can say re: the Media Line is that I saw that the late Murray Fromson was on the board. Murray mentored a friend of mine at journalism school and had us over for dinner once. I didn't know he had died, actually until I looked at their website just now.

For Gaza — Ghassan Kanafani (1970) pic.twitter.com/XuNUjeoKmZ

— Farah-Silvana Kanaan (@farahkanaan) October 22, 2023

This will no doubt be forgotten in the news cycle. But Israelis won't forget the moment their government made it clear that killing Palestinians was more important than rescuing hostages. For the record, Hamas already agreed to release all hostages if the bombing ended. https://t.co/y2EFpZaKpd

— Saeed Taji Farouky (@saeedtaji) October 22, 2023

I just wanted to establish that there doesn’t seem to be real doubt that there was tons of intentional cruelty and brutality to civilians of the worst kind

Why are you establishing it on here though? Has anyone denied it on ILX?

Pretty much. The thread revive was to cheer it on. I am kind of excuse that because it was still happening and no one could have known the scope and nature. Then there was a lot of arguing with vhs and then I haven’t gone back through the entire thread but the only other discussion I recall was “40 babies weren’t actually beheaded.”

Which is not the same as saying cruelty and brutality didn't happen though is it?

I recognise that this is a very fraught and sensitive subject, it is wildly horrific to think and read much about but like…. Who, exactly was cheering on violence to civilians? At most I saw people post takes I disagreed with. Is it possible to not just toss out takes there like ilxors were celebrating attacks on (Israeli? Palestinian?) civilians without at least pasting the posts you mean if you’re still angry about them? Like I don’t think everyone agrees but please can we actually talk to each other. Thanks.

xp The Rivkah Brown tweet hasn't aged well (and is now very deleted), but was clarified to say that she supported the effort but not all of the actions. I realise this might seem like a minor clarification, but as Tom says, it's different from saying that things didn't happen.

I'd be very surprised if anyone thought Hamas actions were a good idea or justifiable in any way,. It feels like this is mostly hanging off the BLM Chicago tweet and some DSA types who thought they had seen some multipolarity decolonisation particles. Equating Palestine and Hamas would be a weird thing to do

Equating Palestine and Hamas would be a weird thing to do

Important to stress that most of the media and the political class in the UK are doing this, though

Obviously! Thats hardly a surprise. But it would be weird for anyone to go along with that and do their job for them

Who, exactly was cheering on violence to civilians?

not in this thread, but i have seen several activists types refer to the hamas attacks as liberatory and just, and others continue to assert that the brutality of the attacks were exaggerated. i can name names if you like, but would that really be productive?

man alive is using this thread to vent about those takes, which to me is totally fine, because these are friendlier confines (when people aren’t being weirdly defensive) than the broader internet at large.

obviously these takes are less prominent and less influential than many of the draconian anti-palestinian positions that dominate the western polity and media, but it doesn’t mean that they don’t hurt!

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive)
Posted: 22 October 2023 at 14:40:43
Pretty much. The thread revive was to cheer it on.

^ I was referring to that tbf, it kind of took me by surprise

I’m not debating in these threads any longer, but just to say that one of my dearest friends was purposefully struck by a car during a pro-Palestine march yesterday. He was shepherding people across the street and a guy with an Israel flag hanging from his rearview hit him.

My friend is okay— the guy wasn’t going very fast and he mostly has scrapes and bruises— but just want to note that it is also very dangerous to be for the liberation of Palestine in the US.

i think the one person here you could easily say was doing that is now gone.

it is also very dangerous to be for the liberation of Palestine in the US

and not just on a physical level now, but UPenn, the cancellation of Viet Nguyen's book talk in NY this weekend; I can see this support starting to have impacts on people's professional lives, which is absurd. Obv if you are like that Davis professor and calling for the murder of journalists and their children you should have some repurcusion. But taking a principaled political stance should not result in cancellation.

92Y lost an event with Dionne Brand, Christina Sharpe, and Saidiya Hartman as a result of their actions— just noting that to say that people are not taking this kind of censorious bullshit sitting down any longer.

Sorry, 92Y lost an event with those authors as a result of the cancellation of Nguyen's event, if that wasn't clear.

well if nguyen didn’t preface his comments about the gaza siege with a condemnation of hamas then we have to assume he’s in favour of chopping babies’ heads off. i don’t make the rules

this article lays out a pretty plausible worst case scenario. my impression is that israel is planning on the first step already - ground invasion of gaza - so that’s fun

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/22/the-week-the-world-tried-to-stop-gaza-spinning-out-of-control

yeah, israel have been very openly planning a ground invasion, but it won't go well for them. they are pretty much guaranteed to suffer heavy casualties (urban warfare is difficult and brutal and the idf are not at all prepared for it) even if they are at all successful in significantly damaging hamas' capabilities (which is probably the bare minimum they could claim as a victory) and hezbollah is threatening war if they do invade gaza. they also have no real plan for what to do in the aftermath of any invasion and have been desperately trying to figure out what they're even trying to accomplish. of course, backing down now would also be an incredible sign of weakness and fail to satisfy the desire for revenge - probably the best option for short-term de-escalation but still not any sort of resolution to the instability. the other option of maintaining the current siege & air strikes, without actually invading, until there's mass civilian deaths from starvations would still (you would hope) lead to more international backlash and likely trigger the threatened reprisals from hezbollah. they don't really seem to have any good options here.

hezbollah are already working towards proper war - the border skirmishes have been escalating and they seem to have been coming out on top there so far, successfully damaging israeli equipment while taking less casualties. there have been reports that some in the israeli government saw war there as inevitable and wanted to pre-emptively strike them but the americans had to talk them out of it because they're not convinced israel can win fighting two fronts at once.

idk really how this is going to avoid a greater regional war. hezbollah's threats turn out to all be nothing because they don't want to deal with the usa too? (that seems to be what the usa is hoping for?) israel finds some way to claim victory without really doing much more (maybe killing some senior hamas figure in an airstrike idk)? but that would still probably just be delaying further chaos even if it's the most peaceful short-term possibility

idk really how this is going to avoid a greater regional war.

Especially if the result of a ground invasion of Gaza is all the other countries and non-state groups in the region watching them take heavy casualties and thinking, "Hmm, they're not so tough..."

that is already what they are thinking, yeah

there's reports just now that some israeli forces just made an attempt at entering gaza to try to fix the fence but were forced to retreat

omg you genius, you’ve solved the Middle East, someone call the Nobel committee

Don't know if this is possible but making an appeal to lay off this kind of snark in this thread please

In terms of a wider war, do any of the state in the immediate region currently have capacity for that? Obviously not impossible but which state(s) are you thinking?

Yes, I'm not convinced by this wider war theory.

if nothing else, the existence of Israel's nuclear retaliation capacity seems like a deterrent to all out regional war. that doesn't mean it won't happen. initiating or greatly escalating a war is always a reckless move. that truism applies both to Hamas's recent incursion and hostage taking and to Israel's current actions and planned invasion of Gaza.

Not a fake AI image yall lol
This is Stockholm for #Gaza #Palaestine pic.twitter.com/SUlyvalACo

— Abier (@abierkhatib) October 22, 2023

I guess this is how you get to wider war, although this sounds like pretty normal Middle Eastern saber rattling to me.

JUST IN: Israel is threatening to cut off “the head of the snake” and launch an attack against Iran if Hezbollah joins the war.

Israel's Minister of Economy Nir Barkat said Iran's Ayatollahs will be “wiped off the face of the earth” if Hezbollah attacks Israel.

“The plan of… pic.twitter.com/W7Lmqo3OZG

— Collin Rugg (@CollinRugg) October 22, 2023

sorry for linking a dipshit like Colin Rugg, it's just the first place I saw the report.

So there was a Solidarity with Israel event in the parking lot of a nearby grocery store and a Pro-Palestinian protest that was originally supposed to be held in downtown Chicago was rescheduled for the same location. Social media reports are all over the place and difficult to be held as valid, but there has been a non-stop parade of cop cars flying in that direction for the past hour or so.

Some X reports are of shots fired, but being blamed on both protest groups. Hopefully nothing major, but sounds like an ugly situation.

Unfortunately it's next to impossible to glean any real info because L00mer and other batshit far-right idiots have decided to make this their sole focus today.

the friend who was hit yesterday is one of the leaders of his Grad Union, which put out a statement of solidarity with Palestine. conservative lawmakers are now demanding they be brought to the capitol under suspicion of “sedition.”

of course, this is ridiculous and won’t ever happen, but jfc.

Was going to start this with an excerpt, but so much striking detail:

Associated Press
Second aid convoy reaches Gaza as Israel attacks targets in Syria and occupied West Bank
NAJIB JOBAIN, SAMY MAGDY and RAVI NESSMAN
Updated Sun, October 22, 2023 at 6:26 PM CDT·7 min read

the friend who was hit yesterday is one of the leaders of his Grad Union, which put out a statement of solidarity with Palestine. conservative lawmakers are now demanding they be brought to the capitol under suspicion of “sedition.”

of course, this is ridiculous and won’t ever happen, but jfc.

Reminds me of recent headline on WSJ op-ed page to the effect that Republican Presidential candidates other than Trump or DeSantis now finally have a chance to move up via stand for Israel. Didn't read.

Interesting thread as we go to a potential ground war.

Missing context here: Sharon’s plan was to invade South Lebanon to force Palestinians in camps to flee back to Jordan, overthrow king and create Palestine there (that old chestnut). US Marines evacuated most PLO leaders and some of their families to stop this and left PFLP behind https://t.co/ckdxpLwDQC

— ‏تمار 🌴 Тама́р 🌴 תמר (@tamars) October 23, 2023

Update: I found the document Herzog is holding. It is not a chemical weapons manual, it's an amateurly-published biography of WTC bomber Ramzi Yousef. It contains no instructions, only mentions of Yousef's early plans to use chemicals. It isn't classified or secret, it's a PDF. https://t.co/vPUCCEaHDO pic.twitter.com/OhLDsYEfqE

— Séamus Malekafzali (@Seamus_Malek) October 23, 2023