Is this anti-semitism?

Oh that's helpful. Yeah that does make it seem vindictive and that is non-obvious to a casual observer not familiar with unionization of Tube drivers. And I do see what that has to do with the discussion of whether a chant is anti-semitic, given the way it could be a flimsy pretext to stomp on workers where you are looking for one. Sort of like how copyright infringement can be used to suppress speech.

I really don't know a good way to articulate this, but nowadays I think it's very difficult to take almost any factual premise for granted or to assume things are obvious to everyone. Because the spectrum of what is accepted as fact has been stretched so far. My brother thinks this makes it very difficult to change anyone's mind nowadays. I don't know.

xp to Tom D

Meant to say, I can't even tell as a factual matter if the chant was over the train's public address system or through a megaphone.

If it was over the public address system - I am struck at its clarity, it's nothing like the NYC subway announcements when I lived there

Sky News did a low profile clarification/weak apology on behalf of the grotesquely thick Kay Burley for attributing/making up an inflammatory quote to the Palestine ambassador Husam Zomlot. Two weeks later, when it has already done the damage.

She's at it again this morning, asking a government minister what they have to say about a tube driver being suspended for leading a chant of "From the river to the sea..." The minister didn't correct her.

Excuse my ignorance, but Kay Burley is a broadcaster and the original incident was that she falsely attributed "Israel had it coming” to Husam Zomlot, the most senior Palestinian diplomat in the UK, when Hamas attacked, correct?

And now Kay Burley has inaccurately reported the tube driver as chanting "From the river to the sea" when the driver was chanting "Free, Free," correct?

Sorry for being absolutely dense, but is there a connection between these incidents and antisemitism?

I'm responding to a post on this thread, where else should I respond to it?

The point is that the Home Secretary of this country (sorry it's not the USA, but there are other countries in the world) is pressing to have various chants prosecuted by the police as hate speech, so I'd say it belongs on a thread asking "Is this anti-semitism?" because are these chants anti-semitic?

Got it.

are these chants anti-semitic?

So if you are asking specifically about the chant "From the river to the sea," of course it belongs in this thread as I posted about three times that this is a good thread to follow it up on.

I am open to the case that it is or isn't, but when a non-zero number of sources have argued that it might be antisemitic - then even as a completely secular Jewish person I am going to pay some attention to that.

symsymsym cited this article for discussion generally on the meaning and history of "from the river to the sea"

I thought this article on the different things meant by the phrase was illuminating, was planning to share it in the other thread where the topic was brought up:

https://forward.com/opinion/415250/from-the-river-to-the-sea-doesnt-mean-what-you-think-it-means/

― symsymsym, Saturday, October 21, 2023 9:50 AM bookmarkflaglink

and it seemed to me that this quote from that article generated some discussion about whether Hamas had distanced itself in 2017 from its initial 1988 charter:

With Fatah seen as selling out, Hamas picked up the call for a free Palestine “from the river to the sea.” It sought to burnish its own anti-colonial bona fides at the expense of Fatah. And although many people point to Hamas’s 1988 charter as evidence of its hostility to Jews, in fact the group long ago distanced itself from that initial document, seeking a more explicit anti-colonial stance. Moreover, its 2017 revised charter makes even clearer that its conflict is with Zionism, not with Jews.

Then there was a citation to a news story about the 2017 charter https://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-hamas-charter-20170501-story.html

And then to the Guardian article you quoted.

So happy to pick up the discussion at any of these points.

My secularish Jewish take is that the verse isn’t antisemitic, and the insistence that the verse is tarred by antisemitic association is agenda-led.

I think the verse might make some Jewish (and non-Jewish) people feel uncomfortable. But it’s okay to make people uncomfortable, that’s not the same thing as antisemitism. Additionally if you are an oppressor (whether Jewish or not) and it makes you feel uncomfortable - then good.

My secularish Jewish take is that the verse isn’t antisemitic, and the insistence that the verse is tarred by antisemitic association is agenda-led.

I think the verse might make some Jewish (and non-Jewish) people feel uncomfortable. But it’s okay to make people uncomfortable, that’s not the same thing as antisemitism. Additionally if you are an oppressor (whether Jewish or not) and it makes you feel uncomfortable - then good.

What do people here think of this initiative?

An academic friend of mine is running a series of teach-ins (mostly in east London but occasionally on Zoom) for Jewish people to unlearn the Zionism they've been taught by their family, at school or in other communal spaces.

Mutuals DM me for details. Otherwise please email.

— Rivkah Brown (@rivkahbrown) October 24, 2023

sounds good

And yours are fair too -- I mean there are reasons my wife's family left Israel. And unfortunately there's a kind of vicious cycle that has occurred where people who are less ideologically driven and open to compromise are also less likely to stay there, whereas the ideologically driven are more likely to move there.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Saturday, October 21, 2023 7:19 PM (three days ago) bookmarkflaglink

just to continue this conversation from 3 days ago...something that compounds this effect is that Israel allows absolutely no absentee voting, unless you're active duty in the military. So if you get fed up and leave, you lose your vote. There is no moderating effect from the Israeli diaspora.

What do people here think of this initiative?

Rivkah Brown
@rivkahbrown
·
Follow
An academic friend of mine is running a series of teach-ins (mostly in east London but occasionally on Zoom) for Jewish people to unlearn the Zionism they've been taught by their family, at school or in other communal spaces.

Mutuals DM me for details. Otherwise please email.
2:00 AM · Oct 24, 2023

― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, October 24, 2023 3:56 AM bookmarkflaglink

For those who don't see Twitter embeds, xyzzz is posting a post from Rivkah Brown.

When I think of Rivkah Brown I seem to recall she deleted a tweet that seemed to celebrate the October 7 massacre. I believe xyzzz knows this.

And to Felicity/others who were troubled by this - idk if you care at this point or it matters (as we'll have different readings on the Z word) but as it makes you stressed out I won't say it on the Israel thread anymore.

― xyzzzz__, Thursday, October 19, 2023 9:41 AM bookmarkflaglink

xyzzz, are you going to be following me around ILX forever on other threads quoting Tweets that use Zionism in that way. I co sider you a friend but it is starting to feel like harassment.

This has nothing to do with you, Felicity. There are more people who post here than you. Obviously, you could comment on Rivkah's initiative, but I am not asking you or anyone in specific to comment.

I did say I won't be saying the Z word but that was a post by Rivkah, who is also a Jewish journalist, and I was wondering about that initiative with her academic colleague, and what people here thought about it.

And, as regards to her previous posting, she posted further to clarify. You may not accept it but there it was. I wouldn't say she supports Hamas.

^ ^ ^

You asked people what they thought.

I am also a person, and I told you what I thought.

But you are saying I am specifically following you around, that this veers on harassment. That's bullshit.

My secularish Jewish take is that the verse isn’t antisemitic, and the insistence that the verse is tarred by antisemitic association is agenda-led.

I think the verse might make some Jewish (and non-Jewish) people feel uncomfortable. But it’s okay to make people uncomfortable, that’s not the same thing as antisemitism. Additionally if you are an oppressor (whether Jewish or not) and it makes you feel uncomfortable - then good.

― Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, October 24, 2023 2:04 AM bookmarkflaglink

That's all fair. I don't have a crystallized opinion on it either way.

If you say it is bullshit I believe you xyzzz. I can drop it.

Rivkah Brown is a little online for my liking and reminds me of the tunnel-visioned comrades from my student union who could always be guaranteed to make a bad situation worse, but she's young, she apologised, it's okay to say stupid things, not everyone is Trump. I'm not sure that those unlearning lessons are going to reach useful audiences, but I'd 100% sign up for a "How to argue with a pro-Israeli family member" class.

I don't know who Rivkah Brown is, but imo her post does not appear to be in good faith (if you pardon the pun). I'm all for conversations, but I'm not really for conversion, especially when it starts from a patronizing place.

Funnily enough your mention of "conversion" often speaks to a manner of talk in left-wing circles. So let's not talk communism but how about work, wages, conditions, which can easily go in that kind of direction.

Just see it as politics but it's just not on for many ppl.

Days that my Newham pro-Palestine parents' group went without someone saying something outrageously antisemitic and then doubling down when I (calmly) said I wasn't comfortable with it: Two. (I left and told the admin why)

Two days is a good start.

This Rivkah Brown Tweet has been deleted already. Not sure what to make of this, but yeah . . . doubling down

That tweet got quote tweeted by a few saying it was AS, and she was attacked in strong terms (she takes a lot of shit on twitter generally).

I didn't think it was but it served as the main reason for me to use this thread to ask.

Looks like this is why it was deleted.

Daily Express journo upon seeing a Jew mention another Jew offering to speak to Jews about a Jewish experience:
I MUST HOUND THEM OUT OF PUBLIC LIFE https://t.co/sWb6FpIKWB

— jewdⒶs // ייִדהודה (@jewdas) October 24, 2023

gross

Looks like this is why it was deleted

xyzzz, a lot of people in this thread don't see Twitter embeds.

Why not try paraphrasing the tweet in your own words?

Why don't they see twitter embeds, is it because they are not on twitter?

I'll paraphrase where I can, but won't do everything.

For those who can't see a journalist from a right-wing newspaper was asking for names of who is behind that initiative.

if you have twitter embed/images/etc disabled on ilx, they show up as plaintext as far as I know. the same as they do if someone deletes the tweet -- the extracted text stays here

Yes. I don't want to speculate, but I've seen several people say they've left or deleted Twitter for various reasons. One of the reasons - again, speculating, not saying this is anyone's reason that is in this thread or lurking in these discussions - is that Elon Musk has tweeted and amplified a number of tweets that are generally agreed to be antisemitic. And it's becoming more of an echo chamber for that. And people may show their disapproval by not giving Twitter the eyeball traffic.

I've read the discussuons in this thread going back several years regarding Jewdas and the Left and the relationship with AS.

I think if you want to have discussions with people about this, it would be helpful to recognize there may be issues even with the platform you're repeatedly citing and also with taking on faith that tweets on there provide a credible or "one true" explanation. It seems like that's how you've framed it by citing that tweet. Not sure if you actually believe that but that's one interpretation.

I think there could be other explanations.

We've already discussed the "river to the sea" chant. How about "glory to our martyrs", which was apparently also projected on the side of a building at GW University last night? That one seems maybe more problematic.

yeah pretty straightforward endorsement of terrorism in this context.

most of the google hits for the phrase that are older than the last 24 hours appear to refer to the war in Eritrea.

Yes. I don't want to speculate, but I've seen several people say they've left or deleted Twitter for various reasons. One of the reasons - again, speculating, not saying this is anyone's reason that is in this thread or lurking in these discussions - is that Elon Musk has tweeted and amplified a number of tweets that are generally agreed to be antisemitic.

I don't know if it's helpful for me to open this can of worms, but there is the context that a lot of the anti-semitic crew Musk loves are also deeply islamophobic and tend towards being pro-Israel from a "defense of the West" pov. Which doesn't deny anything you've said but it's another aspect to take into account.

I just came across a protest irl where people were chanting "Free, free Palestine" which seems fine. But then followed it with "Intifada, Intifada" which I wasn't so sure about.

Follow-up question: if "glory to our martyrs" is projected alongside the "river to sea" phrase, doesn't it imply the "river to sea" phrase, at least in this context, may not be entirely innocuous?

intifada /ĭn″tə-fä′də/
noun

A protracted grassroots campaign of protest and sometimes violent resistance against perceived oppression or military occupation, especially either of two uprisings among Palestinian Arabs in the Gaza Strip and West Bank, the first beginning in 1987 and the second in 2000, in protest against Israeli occupation of these territories.

innocuous? it's a war!

like, if Israelis weren't chanting 'death to Hamas' on the reg i'd be kind of shocked, and vice versa

the important thing is to stop the war. then you will have achieved the aim of getting people to stop using offensive slogans which after all is the real problem

yeah, but this is the antisemitism thread, not the stop the war thread. This is where we talk about Bradley Cooper's fake nose.

sorry i got bent out of shape. i just think "glory to our martyrs" is the kind of thing people have said for thousands of years in the middle of a war. it's not great. but i don't see it as antisemitic. i'm sure there are a range of views on this though!

All valid and welcome perspectives.

Getting back to the Rivkah Brown post that was deleted, I think it was posited upthread something to the effect that holding of "Zionist"
or even nationalist beliefs is not limited to Jewish people, and that it is arguably the conflation of Jewish people with Zionist views that is objectionable.

So while I can see other explanations, the aspect of Brown's tweet that seemed eyerolly to me (in the Sarah Silverman sense) was, ok if that's true, if the superset of people who hold Zionist views comprises more people than just Jewish people, and if a subset of Jewish people do not hold Zionist views, then why mention Jewish people at all? Why address that Tweet to Jweish people and imply that the source of Zionism is home, synagogue, family? Why not just say anyone interested in unlearning "Zionism" should dm?

The singling out, shaming, and implication that by default Jewish people need to be reeducated is quite iffy, and that is what I think might have been overlooked.

yeah, but this is the antisemitism thread, not the stop the war thread. This is where we talk about Bradley Cooper's fake nose.

I just came across a protest irl where people were chanting "Free, free Palestine" which seems fine. But then followed it with "Intifada, Intifada" which I wasn't so sure about.

― Beyond Goo and Evol (President Keyes), Wednesday, October 25, 2023 10:49 AM bookmarkflaglink

Follow-up question: if "glory to our martyrs" is projected alongside the "river to sea" phrase, doesn't it imply the "river to sea" phrase, at least in this context, may not be entirely innocuous?

― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, October 25, 2023 10:51 AM bookmarkflaglink

Let's say it's not great branding

xpost oh ffs

We've already discussed the "river to the sea" chant. How about "glory to our martyrs", which was apparently also projected on the side of a building at GW University last night? That one seems maybe more problematic.

sound of the thread police