Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

Yeah, thanks fgti, good to hear about people coming together... makes me feel a little more hopeful...

fgti, I have a similar friend — one who works in the world of international relations and who has a much, much, much broader and deeper knowledge of such things than I. All of this seems very clear to me — that despite Hamas’ reprehensible actions, Israel’s reaction has been many times worse, and that the Israeli state is committing heinous atrocities that must stop immediately — but he brings up the arguments that there is a disproportionate scrutiny of Israel, that the international community turns a blind eye to worse crimes elsewhere, that Israel is held to a double standard, and that this is due to antisemitism.

I find it hard to argue, partly because I just don’t have the depth of knowledge, and partly because he’s at least partly right. I keep wanting to ask, “Can’t the world hold Israel to account without also having to hold all other countries/governments to account at the same time?” and as I type this I stop and think, why should we? why do we insist that Israel specifically must be held to account while we’ve practically ignored the ongoing disaster in Yemen, for just one example? Why have as many UN resolutions been raised against Israel as the rest of the world combined? — there’s no way that Israel is such a monstrous regime that it’s crimes can be compared to those of the rest of the world combined…

Yet holy shit, Israel’s actions in their offensive here are so clearly and deeply wrong and fucked, how can you shrug them off?

he brings up the arguments that there is a disproportionate scrutiny of Israel, that the international community turns a blind eye to worse crimes elsewhere, that Israel is held to a double standard, and that this is due to antisemitism.

I would argue that the "worse crimes elsewhere" he refers to take place in parts of the world that are nowhere near so well-integrated into the global economy as Israel nor receive foreign aid subsidies in amounts comparable to Israel. If Myanmar, the Congo, or Sudan had as many connections to the western financial system and as much influence over western electoral politics as Israel exerts, I suspect they'd get more scrutiny and criticism for their atrocities. It's because they're at the far periphery of world influence and importance, not because they are not jewish.

maintaining instability and slavery in the DRC is absolutely essential to the world economy in its current form (esp to the tech industry) - I wish more people cared more about that beyond using it as a gotcha but it's even harder to know what everyday civilians can do to change the situation there - putatively "pro-palestinian" and "anti-imperialist" regimes depend on the subjugation of that region as much as everyone else

So I suppose human life and holding countries and governments to account is less important in those places? That implies the lives lost are less important. At some point the loss of lives is a loss of lives. We're all humans. The hypocrisy pointed out above is enlightening.

And for many of the locations you specifically mentioned, they are likely getting their weapons imported. Outside of North Korea none are truly isolated. Where are the mass protests of 100k plus for the Chinese Uighers?

Sorry xp

hard to believe you give a shit tbh

sick of this disingenuous bullshit

I think it’s a good question tbh

It’s just too late for me answer tonight and I wanna discuss with a couple people before giving a good answer

@tamars
GAZA November 5

50 people killed, including 17 children, and families still under the rubble, after IAF airstrike on a residential square in Al-Maghazi camp, central Gaza Strip.

To answer v generally as to why this is getting a protest movement going around the world as opposed to say, Chinese Uyghurs is surely to do with how this started. Oct 7th is a pretty unique moment of a major fuck-up by the Israeli government, and is a shocking instance of a technologically superior power failing to secure it's people. That is a story that is going to be front page news.

Then you have it's response which is very much televised. We can see the rubble, the pictures, etc. People in the West can see it and want to do whatever little they can (going to a march) or contributing money to aid efforts. And in that I would see it partly in continuum with things like famines or pretty sudden disasters around the world, such as flood or fires or Tsunamis.

This is crossed with the long history of actions by the PLO over decades in the West and the long history of the Western world trying to broker a deal between Palestinians and Israel.

Israel has continuously been in breach of UN resolutions concerning the occupation since 1967, and been protected in doing so by the most powerful nation in the world, that's a pretty unqiue situation I'd say.

"What about the uyghurs?" really really doesn't work - western pols talk about their plight all the time, media reports on them extensively, celebs do not sign letters stating that they stand with China, China is not frequently upheld as a shining beacon of democracy in its region. Be serious.

To answer v generally as to why this is getting a protest movement going around the world as opposed to say, Chinese Uyghurs is surely to do with how this started.

the other part beyond just visibility is that israel is a major american/western ally. of course, there are other major western allies that are oppressive regimes that regularly commit atrocities (say, saudi arabia), which generally don't get enough attention, but the difference there is visibility and israel's determination to pretend it is a normal western liberal democracy.

Perhaps the reason that the international community turns a blind eye to atrocities elsewhere is that the international community benefits from those atrocities, but unlike in the mines of the DRC or Uigher reeducation camps or small hamlets in the Bolivian altiplano, the benefits that many countries derive from their relationship with Israel are much more visible, and thus the atrocities are much more visible, too.

In my purview, any greater-than-average scrutiny that applied to Israel may be the result of, in fact, the opposite of anti-Semitism, rather a “we expected better of our Jewish friends” feeling. I mean, I’ve been surrounded by Jews my whole life, (my ex-in-laws excluded) I have far more Jewish friends than Catholic friends. I work with Jews, I work for Jews; my “hawkish friend” I mentioned is actually my boss, and I’m glad he can say dumb shit like “what is happening in Gaza is necessary” and I can say dumb shit like “I marched today and chanted that Israel was illegally occupying Palestinian land” and neither of us are going to try and blacklist the other

I think the feeling of scrutiny is akin to the horror of realizing “oh wow, that white gay guy is actually a total racist monster?” Like yeah white gays are frequently the worst; me saying this is not coming from a place of homophobia, it’s that I hoped my fellow cocksuckers might not be such shitheads when it comes to race

Anyway I have to think about it more tho that’s not my real answer, just my initial intuition

why do we insist that Israel specifically must be held to account while we’ve practically ignored the ongoing disaster in Yemen, for just one example?

a minor point, but Yemen is such a bad example to choose that I'm confused about your friend's larger argument

A better example I’ve heard: “why doesn’t the West march for the Kurds in Turkey”. I don’t think it’s an unreasonable line of query

is there a thread that is current about how ppl otherize cultures and then set expectations and budgets from those levels of otherization

i was in the process of posting about it in accord with fgti's but will hold with "my expectations for israel are what they are. but they are obv not politically or even socially serious about a peaceful future with palestinians."

Arguably the British should care about this conflict in particular because of their special responsibility in initiating it and giving it momentum; the Americans should care because of their special responsibility in perpetuating it since 1967; the Europeans should care because of their historic role in antisemitic murder and inequality that led to even pre-WW2 justifications for the creation of the state of Israel, and obviously strengthened after it. Thus "the west" is largely directly responsible in multiple ways for the history and policy of the modern state of Israel, and directly therefore for the plight of the Palestinians. A lot of what has happened in Israel and Palestine has and is therefore partly being drone in our name. Isn't this enough to feel a special emotional connection to this conflict, and special concern for its resolution?
It's a trusim that the imperial machinations of the colonial powers have lead to lasting problems in the 21st century; Hong Kong, Iraq, Syria, Yemen are all recent examples of this long-tailed phenomenon; Israel/Palestine should be included in that list.
And of course everything said above; allyship, proxy interests, global integration etc.

Some possible answers to hardcore dilletante’s question— I note that some of these explanations have already been stated:

- the greater number of people in the West with ties to the region— displaced Palestinians, the descendants of displaced Palestinians, Jews with direct ties to Israel, Jews with no direct ties to Israel— both groups forming their own opinions as to how Judaism interacts with the actions of the Israeli state (that is “not in my name” vs. “why aren’t Jews allowed to win a war”). I have friends who’ve sent their kids on Birthright trips, and I have friends who’ve lost family in Gaza over the past three weeks, this is a conflict that has an effect on people close to me, has an effect on family members

- the investment, financially and culturally, of Western nations into the economy and identity of Israel; there is a feeling of responsibility/culpability

- a kind of “Prime Directive” aspect; conflicts between Igbo and Yoruba populations in Nigeria seem like less of “the West’s business” than conflicts in Israel-Palestine

- anti-Semitism; both of the traditional neo-Nazi variety, also a kind of proxy form of anti-Semitism where Jews are reductively named as a force of Western Imperialism in the region; I say “proxy” but it is still anti-Semitism

- an illusion of specified scrutiny. This is not to say that “Israel is under no more (or less) scrutiny”, just that in the face of conflict, and protests about it, a group may feel unfairly targeted. I have vivid memories of my Serbian friends, 25 years ago, mounting counter-protests regarding the war in Kosovo, claiming that Serbia was a target of Western media propaganda

- a disproportionate amount of violence and aggression considering the population of the region

- a disproportionate number of displaced/refugee Palestinians compared to others of the world’s conflicts; it is often stated that “1 of 3 of the world’s refugees are Palestinian”. I can’t immediately confirm that this is the case, as the UNHRC (world except Palestine) and the UNRWA (only Palestine) are separate bodies with separate criteria for gathering this information, but on scanning the numbers it doesn’t seem to be that far off-base

- Iraq War / Afghanistan War hangover; left-leaning Westerners are already predisposed to oppose any further Western involvement in Middle Eastern conflict

- a response to the clearly hawkish statements made by the likes of Mitch McConnell, talking about how the US involvement in this conflict is “good for the American economy”

- a response to bald-faced Islamophobic opinions and statements made by Israeli extremists, these opinions and statements becoming more mainstream over the course of Israel’s existence

But in general my feeling, when posed this question, is “you’re right, we SHOULD care more about geopolitics”; to expand the breadth of one’s awareness rather than limit it

*dilettante, my apologies

I think "WHAT ABOUT YEMEN/KURDS/UIGHURS" is not a good argument for "shut up and don't protest, it's hypocritical" but it is a good answer to the question "How can people just be going about living their lives and not caring that a lot of people are dying in ways that they could be said to be partly implicated in," the answer being "everybody does that every day and it's part of being a human that doesn't require special explanation"

My government isn't sending $14bn to China specifically to aid in murdering Uyghurs. My government, in fact, passed a (toothless) law about tracking and reporting human rights abuses of Uyghur people.

Considering the real threat of anti-Semitism both at home and abroad, and the explicitly stated anti-Semitic mandates of various political groups in the reason (not the least of whom: Hamas), I don’t think it’s an unreasonable line of interrogation, here.

I do think this line of interrogation should be interrogated, accepted, and then resolved so it doesn’t threaten to obfuscate the critical present-tense need for an immediate ceasefire

said this before but it does bother me a lot that the UK left has both anti-israel and pro-british majorities - it feels like a total abdication of responsibility and a wilful ignorance of history (including the british left's long history of antisemitism)

it's also true that I have never knowingly met a uyghur but I have met many palestinians, israelis, and others with connections to that region - but has anyone tried asking uyghurs whether they think israel has a right to defend itself?

I have to assume the PRC has learned a lot from israel (as well as russia, syria, the US) since their use of the t-word has been very effective at damaging international solidarity with the uyghurs

Fgti, thank you for that post.

I will say that there are times when I am traveling in Europe and it comes up that I'm Jewish and I immediately get a side-eye and a question about Israel, and there I start to feel like I've walked into the beam of a laser focus on Israel that feels like it comes in part from underlying antisemitism. I don't get that as much in the US. So in the past, the question to me has been how much I want to let myself care about that, given that Israel has absolutely earned the criticism that comes its way. It always seemed better to overlook it than to let it push me to the right.

But right now I think we're past that, because a lot of the messaging that causes people to link together Israel and The Jews In General is coming direct from Israel and pro-Israel Jewish groups, on purpose, with no concern for how they are setting up Jews around the world for a rise in antisemitism. The corollary to "Israel = The Jews; if you are anti-Israel you are anti-Semitic" is "If Israel does something you have to take a stance against, then you may as well embrace antisemitism in general." And right now Israel is committing atrocities and the world is not going to forgive the Jews for that. It's been 2000 years and people are still saying "The Jews killed Jesus" - how long will "The Jews carried out an ethnic cleansing" be used as a weapon against the world's Jewish population? I was talking to my dad about this, and he pointed out that an explosion in global antisemitism means more Jews seeing Israel as the only safe place to live, which means more settlers, which is what Netanyahu wants, so why would he care about the safety of Jews worldwide?

I don't mean this to suggest that I'm looking at this whole conflict through the lens of "Is this good for the Jews?" My primary concern is for Gaza. But when I do take a moment to look through that lens, it is undoubtedly very bad for the Jews.

Good posts, Lily and fgti.

But right now I think we're past that, because a lot of the messaging that causes people to link together Israel and The Jews In General is coming direct from Israel and pro-Israel Jewish groups, on purpose, with no concern for how they are setting up Jews around the world for a rise in antisemitism

That's nothing new tbf. What I've noticed lately is a veritable torrent of strawmanning coming from Israeli and pro-Israel sources.

Younis Tirawi | يونس
@ytirawi
Gaza city is shaking.

Very, very violent Israeli attacks in the areas of West Al-Nasr, the vicinity of Al-Shifa, Tal Al-Hawa, Al-Jalaa, and most of Gaza’s neighborhoods, with unprecedented intensity and force.

Yes, Lily, my friend D has argued that there is no greater fomenting factor toward a rise of global anti-Semitism than seeing what Israel is doing in Gaza right now. "Do these acts make Jews of the world safer, or make them more endangered? Do these acts fight anti-Semitism or exacerbate it?"

I shared my long post above with my hawkish friend and he agreed with the vast majority of it, insofar as "reasons why the West pays greater attention to Israel than they do other global conflicts". His own assertion regarding pro-Palestinian rallies being "wrong" is rooted in what he considers to be "big picture" perspectives; that Hamas's purpose is solely to make its leaders rich off of the conflict. That protesting in favour of Palestine, demonising Israel, it only enables and validates Hamas's "big business" terrorism. He also continues to assert that Hamas was offered a ceasefire (conditional on the return of the Israeli hostages) but that this offer was refused; my own recollection was that a member of Netanyahu's cabinet stated "we don't negotiate with animals" in this regard. His present-tense view is that the world should "let the Israelis finish what they started in Gaza, eliminate Hamas with a minimal number of civilian casualties". My own feeling however is what I've stated before, that Netanyahu's "big picture" goal here is annexation.

thanks for that, Lily Dale— it clearly elucidates an issue that I wanted to ask about in the antisemitism thread the other day but was having trouble phrasing.

Not to be weird but again, it is important to remember that the Israeli government and Netanyahu himself fund Hamas. https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-to-hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-palestinians-divided-583082

like when Haaretz and other Israeli papers talk about the government not keeping Israel safe, this strategy is a part of what they’re talking about.

the world should "let the Israelis finish what they started in Gaza, eliminate Hamas with a minimal number of civilian casualties".

I cannot help but wonder what "minimal" number of civilian casualties your hawkish friend would consider acceptable. Would he stop at 10,000 civilian casualties? Sorry. No can do. We're already there just with outright deaths, not simply "casualties". If Israel continues its current offensive then 50,000 dead, maimed and wounded civilians seems like a cinch. If the war widens, the sky is the limit.

Your friend needs to be more intellectually honest about what he is hiding behind the words 'minimal' and 'casualty', because their reality is this context is massive amounts of death, horror and suffering.

Aimless, don’t you understand that Hamas fighters exist in hospitals, schools, universities, random streetcorners, the mouths of children? That’s why those places have to be bombed indiscriminately!

someone please correct me if i'm wrong but there is one other government in the world aside from israel that is currently using advanced war techniques to kill scores of civilians and that is russia, and the plight of ukrainians was very present in american society for a long while. palestinians can only hope for a sliver of the support that ukrainians got from american institutions. are they going to invite any palestinians to speak at the oscars?

yes there are other active conflicts around the world, there are other ethnic groups being oppressed by governments, there are innocent people in countries w/ no reliable governmental structures who desperately need the world's help and so on. all of those causes are valid and i wish we as people had a capacity to address that need. but i think it's important to remember that what israel is doing -- taking in billions of dollars from the most powerful government in existence in order to use advanced aerial weaponry on innocent civilians to accumulate mass death -- is... pretty much the worst thing that can happen in the world? i hope i'm not putting too fine a point on it. it's not a very difficult riddle to me as to why this is drawing disproportionate attention. how could we be anything approaching, like, a genuine version of humanity if it wasn't?

:-(

Cannot get over how this woman, in the midst of a massive bombing campaign, still did a birthday party for her baby girl, only to be killed along with her other daughter in said bombing campaign hours later. We teach life but what an unfathomable loss, this girl is an orphan now https://t.co/pUh5XzkJ1P

— Aya 𓂆 آية (@jimzawiya) November 5, 2023

Oh no, Aimless, I agree with you. My friend sent me a video of an Israeli journalist (“he’s Arab!”) offering a message to Angelina Jolie: “yes, Israel bombed Jabalya; a terrible tragedy; but did you know that the IDF had already asked several times for civilians to vacate the region?” I’m like… dude the forced evacuation demand is in direct contravention to Geneva Code and was condemned by literally everyone. “Yes, war crime happened; but did you know, Angelina Jolie, that this other war crime happened?”

J0rdan otm, ofc

i went to the march in DC yesterday. got right up to the white house. the only thing in the last month that's made me feel better about all of this was being part of the many many thousands letting the palestinians know that people here are speaking up for them. the organizers even brought macklemore to the stage for some levity (unintentional)

what israel is doing -- taking in billions of dollars from the most powerful government in existence in order to use advanced aerial weaponry on innocent civilians to accumulate mass death -- is... pretty much the worst thing that can happen in the world?

The worst thing that can happen in the world? Absolutely not. What North Korea is doing every single day to it's millions of citizens and the actual, very real genocide of Uyghurs in China (a country with billions, nukes and deep deep economic connections across the world) is far worse in terms of number of lives affected. What is happening in Palestine is indeed fucked, a massive conflict of interest for the West, and has major implications in the area, but to say that the suffering in Gaza is "more" and "worst thing in the world" is massive exaggeration and merely a reaction to the media attention. Ukraine, by your own description, due to the numbers, weapons and tactics (blowing up dams, the potential of blowing up a nuclear power plant) far eclipses Gaza in this regard. It's disturbing to me as it does feel more and more, everyday, that antisemitism seems to drive this intensely disproportionate passion and attention. I would love for this newfound sympathy and focus on the oppressed to be actually consistent across all the world's situations, regardless of the connections to the West. Pointing out that this situation is the "worst" screams some form of bias to me.

It's fucked, a cease fire should happen ASAP, and actual progress towards long term solutions should be happening (including the elimination of Hamas and current Israeli leadership with both being tried for war crimes), but any rhetoric beyond that, especially to hold this crisis and tragedy above even Ukraine is disturbing to me at a deep level, and reeks of inherent bias driven by anti-semitism.

And if someone disagrees with your assessment?

“when i was little, i asked myself if i was palestinian”

xpost

Like have we forgotten how many thousands of children Russia has kidnapped? Who knows how those kids will be trafficked, but given Russia's reputation, no doubt it's not for anything remotely wholesome, and I'm sure you can imagine the worst possible outcome there.

That act alone disgusts me far more than any IDF action has taken thus far.

FP

(xp) So you're saying JOrdan S is antisemitic?

this is why you don't have to take "but what about the Uyghurs" concern trolling seriously

xxp if someone disagrees with my assessment, fine - that's their opinion, but it feels hypocritical to me, and I'd love to discuss more the motivations and source of passion behind the view.