Anti-semitism thread: onwards from 2023

I totally get that. But imagine the response to any other marginalized group's discomfort being "get some perspective."

xp ah sorry I didn’t click through to the tweet. It being in Philly makes it unambiguous

Yesterday my wife and 6 yr old were walking by the catholic school which was letting out on the corner near our house when a bigger kid, but still elementary aged kid, came up to them, held up a cell phone with a picture of Hitler on it and said "what do you think about him?" or something.

My wife just pushed on by but contacted the school and they quickly saw the kid on security cameras and talked to him and his parents. Surprised it got that kind of response.

Can't even imagine what the kid was going on about or thinking. It's easy to just think "dumb, confused, asshole kid, no big deal" but also probably good to stop that kind of thing at the root.

I totally get that. But imagine the response to any other marginalized group's discomfort being "get some perspective."

― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, November 7, 2023 10:56 AM bookmarkflaglink

Oh totally. I should have said that was my brother's perspective. Not that I have any claim to impose any chosen perspective on others.

Xp

A 6 year old? That's grim.

You have to wonder what led a kid to that point.

Kids can be so dumb and not really understand half the things they do or the impact/repercussions of their actions when it comes to stuff like this. In fourth or fifth grade, I gave my yearbook to a boy to sign. He passed it around to the others and they all drew swastikas and stuff implying that my dad was a naxi in it and all ove it because my dad is from Germany. I was upset. I think my mom had a meeting with the teacher. In the end though, I think those kids knew that was something bad but not really how bad. Maybe I'm being naive and they did. Kids can be idiots though and I think it's absolutely good to squash that. Sorry that happened though.

aiui, brooklyn has a very large jewish population and that's been the case for a long time. it also is experiencing gentrification. if anything, the 'settlers' in brooklyn would be hipster goyim. so maybe the point of that slogan was striving to raise issues of intersectionality. hard to say.

I'm imagining a kid who doesn't understand anything. Just knows something's supposed to be shocking or taboo and likes to fuck around. Just a kind of bullying. I don't imagine he's thinking "oh this kid is definitely half jewish" or even thinking much of anything? I don't know. I think my wife just told my daughter it was something he shouldn't be doing and she didn't ask more. I've had a lot of thoughts about how to talk about what's going on or if to talk about what's going on in general and haven't really. My wife told her a little bit, just explained there's some terrible stuff going on and it's making people very upset.

I can't imagine having to have or even think about having those conversations with a child. I am also inclined to think that the kid in question knows the guy is bad and gets a reaction from people so a kind of shock value thing but it's still terrible.

I feel like there was always one kid in school (in the 80's) who was obsessed with Nazis/Hitler/WWII. In high school, one of them was in my german class, and he called me a fag on a daily basis. He was actually Persian and I had to inform him that Hitler would have had him killed. I finally ratted him out to the teacher because his notebook was covered in swastikas.

I started reading the Gary Gulman memoir (he's a really funny comedian). A lot of it is about growing up poor, and Jewish, in Boston. Here's an excerpt of his discovery, in 2nd grade, so around age 6 or 7, of anti-Semitism, by way of his soon to be ex-best friend, Wally Mitler:

“But it was his Holocaust miniseries recap back when I was in Rand’s class that caused me the most pain. It had a permanent effect on our friendship and my self-image.

He had told me about the miniseries the day after it started airing in April 1978. We were playing catch on the side of my house. Wally was not good at baseball, but, like every other boy, he had a glove and played Little League. Playing Little League was basically compulsory in 1970s Massachusetts. He threw wrong and seldom caught the ball. He claimed he needed a new glove. No, he needed new hands.

I had been sent out of the family room and its door was shut when Holocaust premiered on NBC the night before. It was the talk of the town, especially among the town’s Jews. Our "Roots.”

I am not sure if I had even heard the word “Holocaust” before the series began to air, and I definitely knew none of the particulars. I had a fear of Hitler identical to my fear of the devil, but I’m not sure of its origin. If it was discussed around me, it was done quietly; my mother forbade the discussion of anything solemn or emotionally challenging in her presence. Wally, now an expert after having seen the program, filled me in on what happened to Jews during the Holocaust, sharing with me the unspeakable specifics. He said that Jews were burned alive in ovens and starved in camps. My people were also gassed with poison. I was horrified, hoping he would stop talking about it. But much like with his devil voice, I think he enjoyed unnerving me.

When his précis ended, I asked the unanswerable question. Why? Why did they do that to the Jews? What could we have done to deserve this? I was asking out of genuine curiosity, the same way when I was five, I had asked him what G-d looked like. But I also asked him because I knew that whatever he said would let me know what he thought about Jews. I understood, as early as kindergarten, that my people were the object of pervasive hatred.

“Why?” I asked.

Without any hesitation Wally gave me his analysis.

“The Jews were rich snobs … walking around with their noses in the air.”

He said this with certainty, like it was an indisputable fact and, what’s more disturbing, a valid explanation for Hitler’s atrocities.

There is no way Wally generated this explanation on his own. This was an idea an adult in his life must have expressed. Until that moment I’d never thought about how close Mitler is to Hitler. They’re one letter apart.
I’d bet that after watching the show he’d had the same question I just asked him. Instead of giving a historically accurate attempt at an answer, someone in his orbit must have said to him, “Well, kid, these kikes got too big for their britches and Uncle Adie had to put them in their place. Also, the numbers are exaggerated.”

Wally’s next move, and this was particularly sadistic, had been to let his favorite Hēb in on the exigency of the final solution.

No matter the provenance of his despicable “snobs” theory, once again my gut told me how I should respond and hammered me for resisting.

It was my fault. I had appeased Mitler. I should have fought him when he gave my dad the finger that time when we honked at him. And now, he’d gone too far.

I had let my dad down. Phil Gulman would fight you just for saying the word “Jew” in a less than reverent tone; surely, he would have torn the throat out of some Nazi spawn announcing that the Jews were to blame for the Holocaust.

“They were snobs.”

A good reason to dislike someone? Maybe. A defensible reason to torture and murder them? J-sus Chr-st.
I had to keep this to myself. If I shared this with anyone, they’d ask why I didn’t violently attack him. I did have an answer for that: I’m a coward. As evidenced by the fact that I couldn’t even defend the honor of my people. I said nothing and instantly hated myself. And I stayed friends with him. Like a schmuck.”

Ok so maybe some kids know a lot more by way of asshole parents but I still think that doesn't necessarily they grasp the impact of the words/actions.

Schmuck is SUCH a good word.

There are some people for whom no other word will do.

Also, having lived on the edge of Brookline for years, I wonder where in Boston he grew up and will check him out.

It looks like Peabody, I think?

I totally get that. But imagine the response to any other marginalized group's discomfort being "get some perspective."

― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, November 7, 2023 1:56 PM (thirty-three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

look, i'm a jewish person, and i understand being nervous about the potential increase of anti-semitism in society. but i got a concerned message from my friend about a pro-palestinian march in brooklyn worried about me because he heard that they were "hunting jews." that just plain is not happening.

A relative of mine goes to the private girls’ school in London where some kid painted a swastika and “kill Jews” on the wall recently. On the one hand, you know it’s just some idiot kid, maybe’s not even a serious risk, maybe just a kid confusing righteous rebellion tor something stupider. On the other hand… who knows?

xpost Yeah, I wouldn't lose any sleep over that, either. That's like that day of global jihad, or whatever bullshit was foretold a few weeks ago. Though again, it's a fine line between "hunting Jews" and "targeted for being Jewish." Let's just say I wouldn't show up to that march waving an Israeli flag, or even holding a sign with a star of David on it. Unless it was, you know, depicted being tossed in the trash, that seems to be OK. (joke, sort of)

jewish voice for peace has the star of david in its logo.

i also wouldn't wave an israeli flag at a free palestine rally, idk why that would be so controversial.

Xposts ah ok - think that's north shore maybe near Salem

xpost Yeah, it would be pretty obnoxious. I think my point was that the protest itself should not strike fear into the hearts of Jews, let alone fear of being "hunted." But that it wouldn't take much provocation to invite negative attention.

Hey, good timing, Isaac:

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/where-does-antisemitism-come-from

Lemme know if anyone needs it copy and pasted.

You heard about Paul Kessler then? That happened in what is considered a normal suburban enclave in LA.

I don't think anyone should be assaulted for counter protesting.

i also wouldn't wave an israeli flag at a free palestine rally, idk why that would be so controversial.

― is he disgruntled adrian? (voodoo chili), Tuesday, November 7, 2023 11:46 AM (one minute ago)

Just read this story of an 65 year old counter-prostestor waving an Israeli flag at a Free Palestine demonstration in suburban LA who was involved in a physical altercation and has died as result of a fall (witness details are mixed whether he was struck, or tripped and fell to the ground on his own). The other person (a 50 year old man) involved in the altercation is cooperating with authorities but there is a burst of social media claming this incident was anti-semitic/terrorist (source: my pro-Israel friends IG shared stories).

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-11-06/man-dies-after-fight-at-protest-westlake-village-israel-hamas-war

his discovery, in 2nd grade, so around age 6 or 7, of anti-Semitism, by way of his soon to be ex-best friend, Wally Mitler

Woah, Wally Mitler?

But imagine the response to any other marginalized group's discomfort being "get some perspective."

xp to steve shasta, to be clear, i don't think the guy had it coming, obviously that's a terrible thing to happen. of course it's now going to be used as evidence that none of the hundreds of other worldwide protests were peaceful at all.

gyac, I really appreciate that.

Re: taking pain seriously, I agree that it's rarely as much as is warranted or needed, and regardless, it's not like sympathy can be quantified. But here's another story involving one of my kids that I can offer (I've probably told it before). A few years back some knucklehead scribbled racist and anti-Semitic stuff on a bathroom stall at the high school. There was the expected outrage, protests, eventually an assembly, but none of it ever addressed the specifically anti-Semitic aspect of the incident. My daughter came home that afternoon and basically asked, "what about us?" She's a strong kid, and the school responses have improved some since then, but I know she still carries that hurt with her. It's probably curdled into cynicism, which helps no one.

Re "settlers" -- there were a lot of arguments going around right after October 7 that the people who were killed were not civilians because they were "settlers." (This is not true by any international law standards btw, as they were living within the 1948 borders, not to mention that I would guess few of them were first generation in Israel). In that context, putting up a sign about "settlers" being "the problem" across from a synagogue seems like pretty clear intent to me.

of course it's now going to be used as evidence that none of the hundreds of other worldwide protests were peaceful at all.

― is he disgruntled adrian? (voodoo chili), Tuesday, November 7, 2023 12:05 PM bookmarkflaglink

I think there is a difficulty in engaging with this kind of claim if there appears to be a willful blind spot or what looks like an oblivious/disingenuous denial that some symbols of hatred are mixed with legitimate political protest. Kind of a mixed-motive situation.

Notice I didn't restrict this to pro Israel or pro Palestine.

Has this happened with other peaceful protests?

The BLM protests in 2020 are still constantly talked about this way

That's terrible

For sure cops are often fucking up peaceful protestors.

There's an ongoing perception that the BLM protests were 100% violent and destroyed entire cities

Ok the last question in my post was poorly worded. Were people saying there were hate symbols and messages mixed in to otherwise peaceful protests, what were they, and what should be the response?

maybe I need a gut check on the "settlers" one, maybe it's just my media-addled brain seeing something that isn't there, idk. I'm not exactly sure what it means anyway, Brooklyn itself was a Dutch settlement so it seems odd to say settlers are "the problem" within Brooklyn. Brooklyn is mostly settlers by the broad definition used in theory about "settler colonialism" as I understand it. If it means gentrifiers, I think calling them "settlers" is kind of a poor analogy but w/e.

I think there is a difficulty in engaging with this kind of claim if there appears to be a willful blind spot or what looks like an oblivious/disingenuous denial that some symbols of hatred are mixed with legitimate political protest. Kind of a mixed-motive situation.

Notice I didn't restrict this to pro Israel or pro Palestine.

Has this happened with other peaceful protests?

The question that is elided here is what is "legitimate," who decides what is "hatred" or not? While I think what happened to that person in LA is execrable, I would also argue that waving an Israeli flag in that situation is essentially cheering on ethnic cleansing, and is pretty illegitimate as a result.

Regarding your follow-up, I remember very clearly a moment during the early days of Occupy Oakland when I came upon the camp and a friend of mine was in a small group yelling at a woman and asking for her to be escorted away from the camp. The reason? She was spouting off one of the standards of economic antisemitism regarding Jewish people controlling the gold supply, etc etc. The woman *was* escorted away and I never saw her again. There are absolutely fucked up antisemitic things that go on in leftist protest movements, but many times that I've seen, the people being antisemitic are pretty quickly put in their place and told to fuck off.

Over here we've got the UK Home Secretary explicitly calling the pro-Palestinian protests "hate marches". This despite the fact that there's been barely any arrests made at the dozens of marches that have taken place in towns and cities the length and breadth of the UK.

x-post Again, that's just my experience in protest and social liberation movements, not universal since much of that experience was in the Bay Area or Philly.

From what I've read the marches in London have been overwhelmingly peaceful. It would be infuriating to have the Home Secretary call them hate marches.

There are absolutely fucked up antisemitic things that go on in leftist protest movements, but many times that I've seen, the people being antisemitic are pretty quickly put in their place and told to fuck off.

― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Tuesday, November 7, 2023 12:45 PM bookmarkflaglink

I am very glad to see this acknowledged and to hear that this is the response. It feels like a topic that is absolutely not tolerated for discussion whatsoever.

Free Palestine is not exclusively a leftist protest movement.

I never said it was, I was answering more generally about my experience in such movements. I haven’t seen anything antisemitic at recent Philly rallies, fwiw

Ok the last question in my post was poorly worded. Were people saying there were hate symbols and messages mixed in to otherwise peaceful protests, what were they, and what should be the response?

― felicity, Tuesday, November 7, 2023 3:38 PM (twenty-nine minutes ago)

the george floyd protests are not really relevant to the discussion of hate speech, hate symbols etc bcuz the police aren't an ethnic class. you're asking about a dynamic that just wasn't present at that conflict. i'm sure there were "counter protestors" in places saying horrible shit about black people but i don't think that's what you're asking

there were speakers at the DC rally leading the crowd in chants of stuff like "israel go to hell" & things of this nature. personally speaking bcuz of my upbringing that phrasing & concept is not something i'm entirely comfortable with, but i also don't think such chants were intended as anti-semitic dogwhistles even if i'm sure there were some people in the crowd who were receptive to hearing them as such. ultimately i saw/heard nothing that day that made me think the rally was about anything other than an end to the bombing of innocent civilians and achieving permanent humane living conditions for the people of palestine, both of which i just see as plainly agreeable causes

man alive, fwiw I think you're right about that sticker. I thought about it more after posting, and while it's basically impossible to parse with confidence, one possible reading of its co-opting of the anti-colonial term "settler" to refer specifically to Brooklyn is that its implying the project of European settler colonialism was a Jewish conspiracy, which is repulsively racist in multiple ways

plausible deniability is a big part of that kind of thing, so that's a reason why they don't always make clear sense

That's what I mean about the subliminal advertising too.

If anyone's curious, the tests at https://www.projectimplicit.net/ about implicit bias are pretty eye opening. And that's on well-educated adults.

Imagine the effect of all these inputs on children.

Interestingly, I tried one of those tests (the Religion test) and when you select "White" as your race, it gives you a bunch of ethnicities/nationalities to choose from. "Jewish" is not one.

Did you do the test? Were you surprised? I did one as a CLE in NY and I definitely was.

tbh, I didn't finish it, I started to feel both uncomfortable and annoyed with the seemingly endless barrage of categorizing things into "Good" and "Bad" and "Islam" and "Judaism" and it weirded me out that it put "Islam" and "Bad" on the same side even though I'm sure there was some subtle effect being tested for.

The funniest response to this I saw was "the real way to show solidarity with us is to circumcise your husband and sons"

#brisMylahYourlah

people whose real interests have nothing to do with us, and who will forget about us or worse when we aren't useful.

Honestly it's worse than that, because the ideological commitment is paper thin. In the end times that these weirdo death cultists believe in, the Jews still have to convert or die. There's no place for Jewishness in the eschaton.

otm

yeah if you kind of play it out to its logical extension at its root its pretty anti-semitic

I mean explicitly the only Jews ("tribes of Israel") who survive the wrath of God are 144,000 (weirdly specific but okay) who get protected status because they proclaim their belief in Christ? Idk what else to tell you, I'd hold out for a better offer if I were you.

Apologies for taking my eye off the FP situation for a while, but trevor piled up a whole lot of them in a very short time, and is banned. Theoretically for a week, but we'll see.

144,000 (weirdly specific but okay)

I love these kinds of biblical details, you just know there's always some kind of obscure numerolgical or ideological reason behind them. Basically the equivalent of the writer going "lol I'll put 144k in here as a shoutout to my Chaldean bros" or whatever

Seriously the bible is so much weirder than people I think really understand it to be? I was sitting through a Christmas reading and the whole nativity story isn't a simple narrative, it has all these weird bits in it about "as had been foretold by this random prophet guy from another province who is never mentioned again" and yeah it's like, all the historical context is missing, and if it's not missing it's sanitized away in order to use a certain narrative to amass power over the centuries.

Anyway sorry this is not about antisemitism. I work for a Jewish non-profit these days and there's, ahhh...just a lot going on.

So is that Common song with Cee-Lo where he raps, "Cause when the trumpet's blowin' 24 elders surround the throne/
Only a 144,000 gonna get home" antisemitic?

Seriously the bible is so much weirder than people I think really understand it to be?

for sure, and I always make a point to emphasize this when people dismiss it out of hand as a text not worth reading, it is unbelievably dense and strange, bottomless really

The 144k comes from Revelations, and I think Jehovah’s Witnesses think that is the number of total people saved. Which of course raises the question of why they proselytize. Not everyone you convert will go to heaven!

Calvinists have the same problem tbrr and it hasn't stopped them either. Nothing that these people believe makes any sense when you get right down to it.

You don't know which ppl are gonna be saved, maybe God gave you the opportunity to save one of the 144k!

For all I know there may be some antisemitism in The Bible. I'm not sure, but it would bring us back on topic.

all the antisemitism in the New Testament basically boils down to all of Jesus' followers absolutely hating the Jewish religious institutions of their day, and vice versa. That's what all that stuff about the Pharisees and Sadducees is about. Jesus was basically a heretic and it set up an internal conflict with Judaism at the time. A tiny, insignificant internicene squabble that has been magnified and passed down to us through the ages (thx a lot, assholes!) Elaine Pagels has some good scholarship on this iirc.

*within* Judaism

JWs specify that it is 144k *men* who get saved. Not women.

So that either implies it’s all women or no women.

My mom’s parents spent 10 years as JWs (long story). They mean just the men.

I will use this as another opportunity to proselytize about my favorite little podcast (which, yes, is two cishet white nerd dudes talking at each other): apocrypals. “where two non-believers read the bible and we try not to be jerks about it.”

It’s great imo. Benito really seems like he knows his stuff and Chris always comes with the (family friendly) joeks

Tom, I would actually give that podcast a try! I listen to a lot of exvangelicals/deconstructing from cults content but sometimes it's too vibes-based, I would appreciate a little more structure and a guided tour through the insanity.

I thought the JW's finally decided that heaven has 'annexes' for other people

IO I strongly recommend it! It is my #1 favorite thing to listen to while I do my jigsaw puzzles during the weekends when we have nothing else going on.

My mom’s parents spent 10 years as JWs (long story). They mean just the men.

OTOH when my grandfather decided the JWs were awful, but found it difficult to directly break from them, he got a bunch of astrology books and once up to speed on the subject, offered to do their birth charts.

Suddenly Kingdom Hall left them alone. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Lol

for sure, and I always make a point to emphasize this when people dismiss it out of hand as a text not worth reading, it is unbelievably dense and strange, bottomless really

― famous instagram dog (Shakey Mo Collier),

I spent 30 mins Thursday night with this guy I met who said he was Christian but didn't know shit about the Bible explaining to him the walls of Jericho, Onan, Ruth, the Witch of Endor, and the Book of Job. I loved this shit when I was a kid and studied it like Greek mythology except I was supposed to love the former and revere the latter.

That night I did not become Balaam's ass.

Balaam hits significantly hard because it's like the one narrative reprieve in the (a) book (full) of Numbers.

Where's the "favourite bible stories" thread? I've got some posting to do

Things that you like in the bible: