Anti-semitism thread: onwards from 2023

Ok the last question in my post was poorly worded. Were people saying there were hate symbols and messages mixed in to otherwise peaceful protests, what were they, and what should be the response?

― felicity, Tuesday, November 7, 2023 3:38 PM (twenty-nine minutes ago)

the george floyd protests are not really relevant to the discussion of hate speech, hate symbols etc bcuz the police aren't an ethnic class. you're asking about a dynamic that just wasn't present at that conflict. i'm sure there were "counter protestors" in places saying horrible shit about black people but i don't think that's what you're asking

there were speakers at the DC rally leading the crowd in chants of stuff like "israel go to hell" & things of this nature. personally speaking bcuz of my upbringing that phrasing & concept is not something i'm entirely comfortable with, but i also don't think such chants were intended as anti-semitic dogwhistles even if i'm sure there were some people in the crowd who were receptive to hearing them as such. ultimately i saw/heard nothing that day that made me think the rally was about anything other than an end to the bombing of innocent civilians and achieving permanent humane living conditions for the people of palestine, both of which i just see as plainly agreeable causes

man alive, fwiw I think you're right about that sticker. I thought about it more after posting, and while it's basically impossible to parse with confidence, one possible reading of its co-opting of the anti-colonial term "settler" to refer specifically to Brooklyn is that its implying the project of European settler colonialism was a Jewish conspiracy, which is repulsively racist in multiple ways

plausible deniability is a big part of that kind of thing, so that's a reason why they don't always make clear sense

That's what I mean about the subliminal advertising too.

If anyone's curious, the tests at https://www.projectimplicit.net/ about implicit bias are pretty eye opening. And that's on well-educated adults.

Imagine the effect of all these inputs on children.

Interestingly, I tried one of those tests (the Religion test) and when you select "White" as your race, it gives you a bunch of ethnicities/nationalities to choose from. "Jewish" is not one.

Did you do the test? Were you surprised? I did one as a CLE in NY and I definitely was.

tbh, I didn't finish it, I started to feel both uncomfortable and annoyed with the seemingly endless barrage of categorizing things into "Good" and "Bad" and "Islam" and "Judaism" and it weirded me out that it put "Islam" and "Bad" on the same side even though I'm sure there was some subtle effect being tested for.

You can do one that's much less emotionally charged. Mine was about male and female careers I think.

A relative of mine goes to the private girls’ school in London where some kid painted a swastika and “kill Jews” on the wall recently. On the one hand, you know it’s just some idiot kid, maybe’s not even a serious risk, maybe just a kid confusing righteous rebellion tor something stupider. On the other hand… who knows?

― Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, 7 November 2023 19:41 (two hours ago) link

That is indescribably messed up. Sorry to have skipped over it when you first posted.

There were swastika's in my daughter's public middle school too recently. I'm actually not 100% clear on whether they were pre- or post-Oct 7 though. I saw them scratched into desks in my schools growing up too, nothing new.

doesn’t make it any less fucked up of course

You'd see swastikas everywhere when I was a kid. Not used as specifically targeted hate speech but just the symbol being drawn, mostly on desks or notebooks or bathroom stalls etc. I do think most of it was done by kids who didn't really have the context or if they did, just didn't understand the true depth of abhorrent evil it represented. Lots of kids grew up seeing the symbol in WW2 films or stories with the Nazis as genuine bad guys but one who were as threatening as Cobra in GI Joe. This is what I like to believe anyway, that most of it really was wrongheaded and regretted later. I don't think that excuse still holds water but I don't know what the kids across America are being taught about it and the Nazis at a young age.

Keeping in mind I grew up in the midwest sticks

My sister left high school (in the Philly burbs) early because, among other things, someone scratched a swastika into her locker. Pretty confident the person doing it knew what they were doing, even if they weren't explicitly a Nazi or whatever.

Imagine the effect of all these inputs on children.

There was a really long radio piece (or podcast?) about the woman that discovered implicit bias, at least from an academic vantage. It began with her assisting another researcher in a memory study about finding familiar or famous sounding names in the phone book or something, and iirc she learned that male names were more likely to be remembered or identified as "famous" than female names. Something like that. Anyway, once she pursued her new field of research she made all sorts of surprising discoveries, including the revelation that while she expected children to display implicit bias less than adults (innocent, blank slate, etc.) that was often very much not the case, revealing the impact environment (among other factors) has on even young kids when it comes to bias. Illuminating.

I thought the New Yorker interview (David Feldman, the director of the Birkbeck Institute for the Study of Antisemitism, at Birkbeck College, University of London) I posted was full of interesting observations. Like:

I have written about antisemitism as a reservoir in the culture, something there to be drawn on. And this is a reservoir which has built up over centuries, even over millennia. There are three key elements in this: one is the idea that Judaism has been superseded by Christianity (the notion that Jews have a particularistic and narrow morality is one consequence of that idea); second, the idea that Jews are forever conspiratorial and up to something against the common good; and, third, the connection of Jews with money. These ideas have been repurposed over centuries in multiple political contexts. And we see them repurposed in some of the antisemitic attacks on Israel.

One thing shown by multiple opinion surveys in the United States, Germany, and in the U.K. and elsewhere, is that the percentage of committed ideological antisemites is relatively small, but the diffusion of negative stereotypes and narratives about Jews through the culture is much higher and much wider. At certain moments, people draw on these, especially at political flash points when these ideas appear to be useful, and when they appear to explain something. Yes, there are antisemites, sort of ideologically committed individuals and groups who have an antisemitic world view, but much more commonplace are individuals who draw on the well of antisemitism within the culture. And that’s what we see in antisemitism around Israel.

Tied in with the second is probably linking anyone Jewish to Israel and its policies, and the implicit suggestion that they support those policies. There is a Jewish deli in West Hollywood which was tagged with anti-israel graffiti, pro-palestinian slogans, etc. perhaps not anti-semitic in another context but in that context it feels quite obviously to be the case.

Getting more into the Jews vs "Zionists" thing, one popular strain of thought that comes up a lot in the context of Palestine is that European Jews are not "real Jews" - they are Khazars or some other similar theory. This is again a good example of the messiness of anti-semitism vs anti-zionism. Part of the reason this theory is so popular is that it is seen as undermining the idea that "Zionists" have any actual historical connection to Israel. But it also bleeds into the idea that European Jews are "not real Jews" but rather evil "zionists."

I thought the New Yorker interview (David Feldman, the director of the Birkbeck Institute for the Study of Antisemitism, at Birkbeck College, University of London) I posted was full of interesting observations.

Agreed. Although Feldman didn't answer some of Chotiner's questions in less than 30 seconds or in the form of a haiku, he seems to have kept a sense of humor.

European Jews are not "real Jews" - they are Khazars or some other similar theory

Ah! But what about all those Lost Tribes of Israel? Chances are that the Khazars were just Jews who got lost for a while and then suddenly remembered about that covenant thing. Makes as much sense as the "not real Jews" theory.

There’s plenty of historical record and genetic evidence of ancient Israelite migration to Europe, as well as slaves taken by Romans. It’s not some great mystery why there are Jews in Europe.

I dug into that Khazars thing recently. Saw it mentioned in the context of the 10 Myths about Israel book and got curious. Read a bit more about the source of it, and there's this ironic thing that it's from somebody trying to use that fact to COUNTER semitism. Regardless, I think it's been debunked by DNA testing. Ashkenazi jews (of which I am one) share enough DNA with mizrahi and sephardi jews and not with "khazars". Personally I feel about as much connection to the holy land as I do to the eastern europe from which my great-great grandparents fled, which is very little, and mostly heritage-wise feel connected to the tri-state area, so that's my homeland.

The history of cranks who theorize what happened to the Lost Tribes of Israel is both voluminous and foolish, occupying the same precincts as cranks who seek a perpetual motion machine. Ashkenazi Jews are as Jewish as any other Jews. Anyone who says different is just huffing moonbeams.

the khazar thing is something I've only ever seen from neo-nazis and conspiracy theorists if it has been adopted more broadly that's really unfortunate

My family are a mix of Sephardis and Ashkenazis and Dutch Catholics and Muslim (peace is possible!) although everyone is non-practicing. My homeland is the entire Northwest branch of the Northern Line.

I was at a family wedding this weekend and dreaded the inevitable Israeli national anthem section. Pleasingly it was accompanied by a tentative speech with a lot of qualifiers.

I was at a family wedding this weekend and dreaded the inevitable Israeli national anthem section.

emi, is that a common thing?

Israel never qualifying for international football tournaments (altho they've a chance of making next summer's euros, as if that wasn't shaping up to be moody enough) means I've never heard the anthem. Any good, or a dreadful dirge like most?

Scotland have played Israel about 10 times in the last 4 years so I've almost certainly heard it.

The Israeli national anthem is iirc pretty sad (surprise). Fun fact: it apparently did not officially become the national anthem until November 2004.

it’s a really beautiful song

Hatikvah (the Israel anthem) is a thing of beauty but I can't remember ever hearing it at a wedding

It's interesting to me that the lyrics speak of being a free people in Zion in the future. To me that's the quintessential Jewish idea of Zion - something that will come one day.

So, I was just talking to my current high school kid, who has been complaining about the MENA group at school. Her first complaint is that it's an explicitly activist pro-Palestinian group despite being billed as a more neutral sounding "safe space for students to create community around sharing and educating the OPRF student body on Middle Eastern/North African culture," and yet the Jewish Student Connection (a social club that she participates in) is considered "non-school affiliated" while the MENA group *is* officially school affiliated.

(I don't really know the difference myself, tbh; maybe it means that one gets money and the other doesn't? It could also be because the Jewish Student Connection is openly affiliated with a religion, though it has always included plenty of non-Jews.)

The second is that in the running for a MENA fundraiser shirt is stuff like a stylized depiction of a bulldozer busting through a fence, which is pretty explicitly celebrating Hamas. The third is that this is the timeline they post on their Instagram account:

https://sites.google.com/student.oprfhs.org/advocacyforpalestinianrights/history?authuser=0

Which of course is their prerogative, but it conveniently minimizes the Holocaust and other sort of important factors of the Israel story (like, for example, any mention of the 1948 war, basically summed up as "Zionist forces invade Palestinian territory and capture much more land than was allocated to them by the Plan of Partition"). And needless to say, it falls pretty short when it comes to the current situation:

On October 7th, as the civilians in Gaza continue to be bombarded by Israeli attacks in the "open-air prison" enclosing them, Hamas launched an organized airstrike against Israel.

Hamas sets 25 interspersed explosions to break out of the Gaza blockade that has denied them movement, access to schools, social services, fertile farmland, and hospitals since 2002.

To call that a gross simplification is an understatement, imo, though it is pretty gross.

Yeah, there's a lot of inaccuracy on that page, and that one seems particularly bad.

It's quite common to hear the national anthem at weddings etc. in London, IME. It's a beautiful melody! I remember arguing with my parents, I didn't want it to be played at my barmitzvah (not for political reasons, but because I thought it would be embarassing.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHy29bn4zeE

Hatikvah slaps

It's all so fucked up. According to reporting, Turkish student at UMass Amherst punches and kicks a Jewish student carrying an Israeli flag. Attacking student faces expulsion and multiple criminal charges. Comment sections full of angry "Why is antisemitism allowed and even encouraged on campuses, that student should be expelled and face criminal charges!"

Love how objective history is antisemitic now

I think treating what Hamas did as a legit military response is a bit biased

I think destroying a border wall unjustly keeping people from land that is as much theirs as anyone else’s is an act of liberation, not an act of terror.

I'm not sure people are focusing on the property damage.

And then what happened on October 7 after they came through the wall

yeah idk if the anti-semitism thread is the place to litigate this

The second is that in the running for a MENA fundraiser shirt is stuff like a stylized depiction of a bulldozer busting through a fence, which is pretty explicitly celebrating Hamas.

That's extremely disturbing. Is there a faculty advisor for this group?

Love how objective history is antisemitic now

― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Wednesday, November 8, 2023 8:52 AM bookmarkflaglink

I think destroying a border wall unjustly keeping people from land that is as much theirs as anyone else’s is an act of liberation, not an act of terror.

― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Wednesday, November 8, 2023 9:41 AM bookmarkflaglink

We get it. You're not exactly subtle.

w/r/t Paul Kessler's death the other day, that was about ten minutes up the road from me. There's a sizable jewish/israeli community, and i suppose a palestinian protest there would be expected to draw a counter-protest if only because it's very possible that many residents there know/knew people who were directly affected by the Hamas attack, and this was the unfortunate result.

it should be noted that in one of the videos i briefly saw it did look like a palestinian protestor was trying to help him as he was on the ground (i don't believe it was the one who allegedly struck him or pushed him.) while i hate what happened for virtually every reason imaginable and for both sides, i also hope that's not something (if what i saw was accurate) that would go unnoticed, how even in the heat of this moment there was humanity.

Let's not pretend the people who broke through the fence did it to kiss the ground of their ancestors. Start your own thread if you want that poetic fantasy.

table, you are all but saying explicitly that Hamas' murderous rampage is acceptable. I don't know if you realize this is how it comes across.

Not quite sure what to make of the two Moldovans arrested in Paris for stars of David graffiti being investigated for ties to Russia. "Putin made me do it" seems a bit weird to offer up straightaway, but the French authorities appear to be taking it seriously

That's extremely disturbing. Is there a faculty advisor for this group?

Yeah, but I don't know how neutral either of them are. I brought it to the attention of the Superintendent and our Director of Equity and Student Success after running it by our Rabbi, who has a kid at the school, too, and is a super chill dude but who nonetheless responded, when I apologized for bothering him with something so relatively small scale, that "I am up to my neck in what is going on at the high school and am currently editing a letter. The situation is bad and I think being made worse."

Here's the t-shirt in question, fwiw:
https://i.imgur.com/tjsS3yI.png

It's literally this image of Hamas in action:
https://media13.s-nbcnews.com/i/mpx/2704722219/2023_10/f_mo_lon_gazaborder_231007-zhzpb1.jpg

yeaaaaahhhh....not good

Local version:
In the speech, Knight recounts a Sept. 2021 prison break by six people from a maximum security prison in the occupied West Bank. Israel, Reuters reports in a story matching Knight's description, said the men were convicted of or suspected of planning attacks on Israeli civilians but Knight called them political prisoners.

"This was a feat of determination and ingenuity only eclipsed — only eclipsed — by the amazing, brilliant offensive waged on Oct. 7," Knight said to cheers.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/jewish-group-calls-for-langara-instructor-to-be-fired-over-speech-at-pro-palestinian-rally-1.7018736

don't really think she should be fired but this shit is just so dumb