Anti-semitism thread: onwards from 2023

Xpost to Josh and Keyes

That's really messed up. I'm very sorry to hear that Josh.

Similar things have been reported about protests at Northwestern University and a friend of mine who's still there (attended as a student, then got a nice job as university staff) sadly confirmed the details. It's really insane and infuriating how too many people opposed to what's happening in Gaza have been taking it out on all people of Jewish faith - I really expected at least students in a university to know better. I was already bracing for both anti-semitism and Islamophobia to get worse - per the analyst quoted in another thread, to 9/11-era levels - but this is far worse than what I've seen in my lifetime.

Conversely, over here, people who are susceptible to yelling "White Power" are more likely to be supporting Israel's actions.

Thanks everyone, I appreciate it. Fortunately she's a strong kid, and sensible and discipled enough not to reply. She just reported it to the school and moved on.

Shit's pretty fucked up right now. So much rage and frustration, made worse by ignorance and a general erosion of whatever empathy was ever there. Sometimes you just gotta put on Tom Lehrer's "National Brotherhood Week" and laugh.

"I was already bracing for both anti-semitism and Islamophobia to get worse - per the analyst quoted in another thread, to 9/11-era levels"

Yeah I posted that thread and was thinking about it earlier today...

I honestly thought this NYT article was good, https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/09/us/antisemitic-speech-palestine-israel-protests.html and was dismayed to see Dan Nguyen and others downplaying the importance of this on bluesky and elsewhere.

The most heartbreaking thing is, my daughter is a kind, generous, caring person who spends a lot of her time helping and supporting other people (and animals!). She also has anxiety issues (who doesn't?) and, for lots of reasons, finds the Jewish community to be her safe space. When she called me today (not in tears or anything, just to check in and say hi) she told me how a lot of the more liberal voices she gravitates to no longer sound like allies, and a lot of the voices on the right, which she can't stand, are gleefully stepping in to fill that void, which disgusts her. She told me it increasingly feels like there is no place for someone like her, and nowhere is a terrible place to be. The last thing I want her to think is that it's better to just be silent.

The last thing I want her to think is that it's better to just be silent.

I feel that. Every day that passes, the more I feel I just can't speak out about the subject, both due to my own emotions as well as the potential reaction.

I can see why.

That sucks, Josh. I've noticed for a long time that people will start posting that kind of stuff on all kinds of Jewish content on Instagram regardless of if it has any connection to Israel. I'm sure it's worse now.

I saw this post reblogged by a baseball tumblr I follow and thought it was good. Linking because it’s reasonably long and if you guys think it’s full of shit at least it won’t take up too much space itt. On the dangers of false friends (and, as they would say on there: tw: antisemitism): https://postimg.cc/gallery/q7ZMf9S

I can’t read it for some reason, it comes through blurry

If you click the individual images it should be ok

XP, I relate a lot to the instinct to remain silent. In the morass of modern “discourse” it can feel like saying what you think is right also gives ammunition to the people who want to harm you. On the other hand, the loudest among us are often the worst.

I see it now gyac, thanks. Actually dovetails with what I just commented.

I haven't gone to a single march in this mess, and I doubt I will. "Pro-Israel" means many different things to different people. The same goes for "Pro-Palestine." I've heard too many voices speaking on behalf of Israel that disgust me. I've heard too many voices speaking on behalf of Palestine that disgust me. Any protests or marches that make room for these voices are not for me. I don't care if they're a minority, they're a loud minority, and I hear them.

Last night I went to a friend's house for a very small, very informal, not at all religious shiva for his (not Jewish) father. Everyone there was Jewish, to degrees, from converts to atheists to someone that wears a yarmulke to people who can't spell yarmulke without checking (that's me!) to someone with Lebanese roots who, needless to say, no longer has family there. There was, of course, discussion. But no one there was a yeller, or angry. Everyone could speak intelligently but calmly, compassionate but understanding of the complexities, balanced in sympathy but willing to call out both sides. That's what I want, that's what I need.

gyac, the one other thing that I think is important to note about that post, though, is that from a white leftist perspective it may seem easier to just look at neonazis trying to "infiltrate" pro-Palestinian protests with antisemitism, but the reality is a lot messier. Antisemitism in the Muslim world is very old and did not originate with neo-Nazis or even Nazis, I'm not saying most protesters are in any way animated or motivated by that, but I guarantee you that there are plenty of antisemites who don't need encouragement from neo-Nazis.

That’s not remotely the point of that post. That post is specifically calling out people who don’t know better about some of the terms and tropes they’re sharing and warning them that anger is no excuse for antisemitism. I’m…not really sure why you brought Muslims up, at all, since the topic of said post is broader than Nazi infiltration? It’s about people being aware of what they are saying and listening to Jewish people about the language they’re using because there are a lot of bad actors looking for recruits.

Antisemitism in the Muslim world is very old

is this true? my understanding is that european-style (i.e. conspiratorial, metaphysical) antisemitism is a relatively recent import to the region. I could be misinformed. I don't think dhimmi status for jews or christians is the same thing at all.

unless we're including babylonians, romans etc as antisemites which you could make an argument for but that's a much broader definition than I usually see from historians

yeah, I don’t think of Muslim anti-Semitism as being old, either. Of course, being raised Muslim I might be blind to an ugly history.

There is a lot of reference to conflict with Jews in the Qur’an, but my understanding is that that has to do with the social circumstances the Bedouins were in and actual military hostilities between them and neighboring Jewish tribes (of course in this era, uneasy relations between tribes were the norm.) I remember a Muslim scholar once observing that Muslim conflicts with people of the book tilted toward Christians for the next millennium (Crusades, etc.)

I have definitely heard Muslim acquaintances and family members express anti Semitic sentiments when venting their spleen about actions taken by the Israeli government. This has mostly taken the form of eliding Israel with Jewish people writ large. Historically, it made me try to avoid the discussions at all, but I now regret that. As a non-Jew, it was my responsibility to challenge the anti-Semitism as it arose and disambiguate the non bigoted critique of the country from participation in the sludge that is anti-Semitism.

I have definitely heard Muslim acquaintances and family members express anti Semitic sentiments when venting their spleen about actions taken by the Israeli government. This has mostly taken the form of eliding Israel with Jewish people writ large. Historically, it made me try to avoid the discussions at all, but I now regret that. As a non-Jew, it was my responsibility to challenge the anti-Semitism as it arose and disambiguate the non bigoted critique of the country from participation in the sludge that is anti-Semitism.

ugh my internet sucks so bad; sorry about the double post

my perception is that antiSemitism in the Muslim world is fairly young and springs from bad feeling about the conflict. As is the anti-Arab and anti-Muslim sentiment I have sometimes heard from American Jews who must have thought because I was college educated and not foaming at the mouth that I couldn’t possibly be Muslim.

I regret being a nice, polite liberal and staying quiet in the latter circumstances, too.

the new testament has some awful stuff in it too - ofc it was written before christianity and judaism were as distinct so what might have been seen as intra-jewish debates take on much darker meanings later on

I'm sure there is something analogous going on with how modern islamic antisemites use quran or hadiths but I don't know enough about it xps

there is for sure a lot of that and it is gross

That's good.

A follow up question.

I was wondering when you said

It seems to me that if supporters of a cease fire would also clearly state that they disagree with Hamas' mission to eliminate the existence of Israel that would go a long way.

Respectfully, I seriously doubt this. Also, Emmanuel Macron is calling for a ceasefire now; it’s not exactly a marginal position (except in the US). Bernie finally said it too.

― horseshoe, Friday, November 10, 2023 6:22 PM bookmarkflaglink

Do you believe it doesn't matter if people are unclear about whether Israel has a right to exist?

It would certainly matter to me. Even if just knowing who I'm dealing with.

I do think it’s hard to overstate the degree to which the Holocaust is just not central to the non Western world’s understanding of the 20th century; that was European business from their perspective, and I think much of the post-colonial world is pretty focused on their own grievances with Europe. I know that people in Muslim countries have taken up European antiSemitic texts like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in the twentieth and twenty first centuries, which is depressing af. And I have definitely encountered the conspiracist idea of a Jewish cabal controlling everything among Muslims.

I've heard plenty of antisemitic stuff from muslims I worked with and went to school wikt - mostly starting with support for Palestine, "the jews" first used to mean israeli settlers but quickly broadening into the kind of conspiracy shit that took over a lot of the UK left and anti-war movements from the mid 00s onwards

a lot of them changed their minds after being challenged, learning more about history, actually meeting Jewish people, etc. ofc a few were just intractable bigots including an iranian counsellor I had as a teen who noticed my german name and tried to bond with me over hitler

Do you believe it doesn't matter if people are unclear about whether Israel has a right to exist?

It would certainly matter to me. Even if just knowing who I'm dealing with.

― felicity, Sunday, November 12, 2023 12:37 PM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I think that framing of the question—that of Israel’s right to exist—doesn’t particularly resonate with me. It feels like abstract rights discourse is an odd fit for the material, violent underpinnings of all nation states. Does the United States have a right to exist? Does Pakistan? Probably not and both nations have done and continue to do a lot of harm, but they’re here, and I don’t anticipate them disappearing or being dismantled. I don’t want them to. It would complicate my own life as a US citizen, for sure, but my life isn’t worth more than the lives of the slaughtered indigenous people or enslaved Africans whom this country assaulted.

if my presence in this thread is upsetting to you or anyone else more directly affected by antiSemitism, I’m happy to bow out.

there is also a perception among people who have experienced colonialism that their suffering and atrocities they've survived are never taken as seriously as jewish suffering which is deeply unfortunate all round and is made much worse by a media that loves pitting Jews and their struggles against those other minorities in a zero sum way xps

The other day, a social media friend posted a video of someone (probably in his 30's or 40's) defending the ongoing bombings by going through all the peace deals and land negotiations officially rejected by Palestinians. (FWIW, at this point, I would say the overwhelming majority of my friends and acquaintances on social media who are Jewish are horrified by Israel's disproportionate response to Hamas, but there are five, maybe six who have maintained an uncompromising, hardline stance and this is one of them.) The information is not wrong - those were indeed failed agreements - but what's extremely unsettling to me is when his argument spends so much time in the mid-20th century, going back to the 1940's. In other words, these are events involving individuals who are likely no longer around. It's inherent to any lasting peace that you have to look forward, to understand from a practical perspective that the real hope for peace lies with newer generations who are physically removed from past conflicts and disagreements. I was already demoralized that the past month has already ensured generations of new hatred, of surviving children who will grow up angry and unforgiving for the atrocities they've now lived through whether it's the Oct. 7th massacre or the incessant bombings leveling Gaza, but a bleak future begins to look devoid of any hope if unforgiving blame can stretch back that far, at least for too many people.

It's not upsetting.

It's just from my background I can tell you that there is miles of difference from saying Israel should be held to every standard of international law and saying it shouldn't exist. I truly don't know if this is something non-Jewish people can understand.

Becuase of my background on my mother's side as well I don't know if I can be sorted into the colonizer or colonizer class. She was occupied, forcibly moved, among a population that saw many unjustified killings by the Japanese and also the Russian and Chinese communists.

Also I don't consider myself white which seems to come up a lot in the rhetoric. Thankfully few people have tried to argue this with me.

xp

To more directly answer your question (I didn’t mean to obfuscate; I just get distracted), I do not personally advocate that Israel cease to exist. I’ve always taken that as inflammatory rhetoric that Hamas and other shit-starters engage in to get a reaction. Israel has kicked ass every time conflict has become more-than-rhetorical. Again, applying a standard of legitimacy to Israel that I wouldn’t to the United States seems nakedly anti-Semitic. But I am uncomfortable with sentimental attachment to a nation; a lot of Kashmiris I know are attached to Pakistan because they view it as a “Muslim homeland” alternative to India, and…I mean, I do not want that. I both understand why European 19th century style nationalism appeared progressive and good when it arose and cast a jaundiced eye on its outcomes.

maybe I still haven’t answered your question, Felicity. I guess, I don’t think a lot about whether other advocates of Palestinian liberation want Israel to “end” because it seems like wanting to live in a world of make-believe, to erase the past 100ish years) Most activists I know who organize for a free Palestine don’t want that, for what it’s worth. If I heard someone say it, I would have follow up questions for sure. When I have heard it from a American leftists/Muslims, it has seemed like posturing.

I mean, also, it seems like what is in danger of ceasing to exist is Palestinians.

As of today, that is certainly the greater danger.

To more directly answer your question (I didn’t mean to obfuscate; I just get distracted), I do not personally advocate that Israel cease to exist.

I really appreciate this. It means everything.

I didn't think you were obfuscating either. I think these are very emotional issues and it's hard to focus and think straight when you are fearful of being accused of this or that.

And I absolutely sympathize and emphathize with the existential threat to Palestinian people. I think we have a lot in common that way.

Yes both of you otm

what does saying Israel shouldn't exist mean to you? does it imply something genocidal? or that Jews shouldn't have anywhere where they can be safe?

I'm not sure what my responsibility is here or if I should even be engaging considering my ancestors are a small part of the reason Israel became a lifeline to millions of people. I have considered that I should never talk about the subject at all. at the same time I can't ignore or punish the people of Gaza because of my inherited guilt that they have nothing to do with. I need to learn to sit with the uncertainty and contradictions and avoid my usual kneejerk reactions. I want to jump in and fix things with easy answers which is not helpful to anyone.

Well, I think there's what it could theoretically imply and what it practically implies. Theoretically, it could imply some kind of binational democratic state with equal rights for all. That sounds fine to me, but I don't live in Israel nor do I intend to, so easy for me to say. I don't think it actually has much support as an idea on either side. That, of course, doesn't mean that can never change, we just aren't very close to it now. There are also all kinds of demographic prognostications in play about who would *really* control the state if that were to happen. And of course there are fears of retribution and retaliation and civil war (in fact I think there could also be intra-Jewish and intra-Palestinian civil war).

I think it's important not to imagine that if you create a power vacuum, it will necessarily be filled with the thing you hope for. We see this play out over and over again, where we naively assume an overthrown repressive state will be replaced with democracy, and instead it is replaced by whoever is best organized, often another repressive group.

Not that this is really immediately on the table anyway. But Hamas's political goal has been to simply resist until Israel is gone, and Israel's goal under Likkud has been to erase the possibility of a Palestinian state. I do hold Israel particularly responsible for failure to do more on the settlement issue before Likkud took power. I want to scan and post a great essay from 1967 or 68 by Yeshayahu Leibowitz called "The Territories." He basically predicted that the occupation of the West Bank would be a disaster for Israel and that the fantasy of creating a "secure border" was illusory as long as Israel antagonized whoever was immediately on the other side of that border. I can't really speak to whether or where Palestinian leadership went wrong or what they were or weren't truly willing to give up under Oslo vs what they said. Negotiations are a poker game, intent is very hard to discern. But I do know that Israel has made it harder to negotiate by settling the territories, and I hold Israel responsible for that.

I think a lot of us here find ourselves in the difficult position of wanting something for Israel/Palestine that a lot of people there don't want, and that the current Israeli government is trying to destroy (and that Hamas also tried to destroy, fwiw, as their entire raison d'etre is non-capitulation to the Israeli state on anything, but I still hold Israel more responsible). I am constantly struggling with this dilemma, and as much as I would like to just wash my hands of it, I don't feel like I can, because I am too personally connected to it.

I really appreciate the reasonable and thoughtful discussion happening here. I especially appreciate the input of horseshoe, for lots of reasons but specifically for a vantage that incorporates or at least has referenced the partition of India, which may (or may not) be a model going forward. (I only say that like that because I'm not particularly well versed in its history or specific repercussions.) Conveniently, India and Pakistan have existed as they are for about as long as Israel has (a product of similar colonial meddling). Has that partition been considered a success? I'd love to know why, or why not, or how.

I would certainly not look to India and Pakistan and the partition as a model for anything!

Assuming Israel and Palestine are one day split into two, there would seem to be parallels. No?

I can only speak for myself but I think it’s a disaster. It’s fairly positional. I suppose if you’re an upper-caste Hindu nationalist, it’s working out okay for you right now, but I imagine even those people are occasionally kept up at night with anxieties about the potential for nuclear war. More specifically, Partition itself unleashed waves of brutal sectarian violence that no one has forgotten, that continue to echo in today’s sectarian violence in the subcontinent. There are plenty of Muslims (and Sikhs, and Christians, etc) in the putative Hindu sanctuary of India, and that’s been working out less and less well for them. Tolerance was enshrined in the Indian constitution in 1948, but Modi has actually removed that language and the majority of Indians seem to agree that tolerance has failed. Pakistan has repeatedly oppressed its religious minorities and also its Muslim populations (Bangladesh) and is just a terrible kleptocracy that is corrupt and terrible.

Again, my family is Kashmiri Muslims, so I have a Point of View on the whole thing. Kashmir…is going to be unrecognizable soon I think; properties considered valuable are going to be settled by Indian Hindus and Muslims will be priced out or killed. Partition was bad, and at this point I am not sure how to staunch the bleeding.

lol Tom D. much pithier and otm

Thanks for that. To be clear, I didn't mean a model as in something to be emulated, something that works, just as an example of how things might turn out. Which doesn't bode well.

Given that India and Pakistan spent nearly 20 years fighting over a glacier, it’s definitely not a model to follow. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siachen_conflict