Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

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What the protests and continuous conversation of this issue across the West and the world are showing is that, at some point, pro-Israeli politicians in the West will face the end of their careers. Certainly my hope is that the calculus will change over time to Israel being treated like Apartheid-era South Africa. Pressure and boycotts from the outside with Israel being forced to reconfigure.

even if this doesn't happen immediately in response to the current war, there is a real generational shift in most of the west on the issue and i think it will eventually have an actual political impact yeah. though that's ignoring the scenarios where democracy in the usa completely collapses which is not really something that can be ruled out.

ufo, Saturday, 11 November 2023 13:09 (one year ago) link

hardcore zionists like netanyahu and his cronies benefit from increasingly hostile attitudes towards jews abroad. in their view, the worse things are for jews in the diaspora, the more appealing israel looks as a safe haven

i would understand this logic more if israel didn’t rely so heavily on the united states: if the u.s. ever loses its appetite for funding israel, whether due to antisemitism in the government ranks, or simply because israel becomes too extreme themselves, the jig is up.

the only hope for israel in the long run is real peace—not “normalization” of relations with neighbors, but the end of occupation and apartheid.

is he disgruntled adrian? (voodoo chili), Saturday, 11 November 2023 13:22 (one year ago) link

These settlers need to be stopped.

"What are the borders of that Jewish nation?

The borders of the homeland of the Jews are the Euphrates in the east and the Nile in the southwest. [This would include the territory of multiple Middle Eastern countries as well as the territory that Israel controls today.]"

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extreme-ambitions-of-west-bank-settlers

xyzzzz__, Saturday, 11 November 2023 14:55 (one year ago) link

worth remembering that the Likud Party manifesto includes its own "river to the sea" statement: "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty".

I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Saturday, 11 November 2023 15:24 (one year ago) link

the only hope for israel in the long run is real peace—not “normalization” of relations with neighbors, but the end of occupation and apartheid.


This post is OTM — but I’d add that ending occupation and apartheid alone would not bring peace, although it’s one of the prerequisites. Most (all?) of Israel’s neighbours, and their allies, are more or less of the opinion that Israel is not a legitimate state at all and that it must be destroyed. And there’s a large contingent that thinks Jews are the enemy and must be eliminated as well. So there’s that to contend with.

The land of dreams and endless remorse (hardcore dilettante), Saturday, 11 November 2023 15:24 (one year ago) link

I think that point is debatable considering Saudi Arabia and Israel were on the verge of normalising relations before all this happened.

People think peace is some nice sweet gentle thing. It’s not. Most often you’re going to find yourself shaking hands with people who’ve terrorised your ancestors and family, but it’s done to end violence and is a greater ideal than almost any others we have for exactly that reason. You just can’t shy away from what it demands, that’s all.

mojo dojo casas house (gyac), Saturday, 11 November 2023 15:28 (one year ago) link

it's almost like the founding of the state of Israel was a dirty trick on the jewish population "hey leave Europe, go over...here, where absolutely none of your neighbors is going to tolerate you"

I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Saturday, 11 November 2023 15:28 (one year ago) link

Oh yeah and Israel has nuclear weapons, forgot to mention that.

mojo dojo casas house (gyac), Saturday, 11 November 2023 15:29 (one year ago) link

I think that point is debatable considering Saudi Arabia and Israel were on the verge of normalising relations before all this happened.

People think peace is some nice sweet gentle thing. It’s not. Most often you’re going to find yourself shaking hands with people who’ve terrorised your ancestors and family, but it’s done to end violence and is a greater ideal than almost any others we have for exactly that reason. You just can’t shy away from what it demands, that’s all.


<3 this

The land of dreams and endless remorse (hardcore dilettante), Saturday, 11 November 2023 15:43 (one year ago) link

There’s a passage in Beowulf about that…but it’s kind of about the inherent instability of it. Because at any moment the conquered who are old enough to remember the last violent incursion will see the gold embellishment their leader wore on the head of the rival leader and it will all come rushing back.

Killing everyone who remembers the last time is one way of circumventing that problem though

horseshoe, Saturday, 11 November 2023 15:55 (one year ago) link

In Beowulf, that moment of memory leads the rememberers to burn their supposedly now peaceful coexisting tribe’s king’s castle

horseshoe, Saturday, 11 November 2023 15:57 (one year ago) link

truth and reconciliation is a model but Israel and Palestine are not there

horseshoe, Saturday, 11 November 2023 15:57 (one year ago) link

I’ve thought about this a lot because my family is from Kashmir. A huge part of why I feel fellow feeling with Palestinians.

horseshoe, Saturday, 11 November 2023 16:00 (one year ago) link

It’s the relatively powerless who are coerced into forgiving and forgetting or just told what happened didn’t happen

horseshoe, Saturday, 11 November 2023 16:01 (one year ago) link

@ voodoo chili, this was noted by Hannah Arendt decades ago:

In the words of a well-known Zionist in a letter to me discussing the original Zionist argumentation: ‘The antisemites want to get rid of the Jews, the Jewish State wants to receive them, a perfect match.’

@ felicity, I feel frustrated and sad that my posts are being felt as a personal accusation, they are not intended as such. The frustration I feel regarding discussions of "anti-Semitism" at this point in time are entirely informed by the changing definition of "what is anti-Semitic?" in other sources of media, as it broadens to cover "anyone who expresses criticism of the Israeli state" to "anyone who expresses sympathy toward Palestinians" to "anyone who seeks to document what is going on in Gaza": The Jerusalem Post's very-cute editor writing insane op-eds that would attempt to strip anti-Zionist Jews of their Jewish identity, calling them "non-Jews"; Columbia U shutting down pro-peace Jewish groups like JVP (and another, it slips my mind, but it happened yesterday); the continued portrayal of anti-war pro-Palestine protests in the right-wing American and Canadian media as being "hateful" and "racist".

Considering the number of individuals who have lost jobs, lost work, lost opportunities, been subject to harassment, for expressing even a "like" that opposed this Palestinian genocide-in-progress, considering that accusations of anti-Semitism are being used increasingly to silence those who oppose it, it does make me feel like debates about "what is anti-Semitic" are a smokescreen for filibustering, whether it's discussions about Rivkah or JVP or "whether it is appropriate to share n+1 articles on Facebook" (which I did, and realised that a lot of people would have a problem with it). And filibustering serves Netanyahu, as the bodies pile up, the buildings get destroyed, and annexation becomes increasingly like 'what is going to happen, here'. This is my frustration about these discussions; it's not that I'm not sympathetic, it's that it is happening broadly across the world as an attempt to silence and discredit those who oppose the bombardment of Gaza.

truth and reconciliation is a model but Israel and Palestine are not there

Although the optimist in me wants to disagree, I think you're right.

It’s the relatively powerless who are coerced into forgiving and forgetting or just told what happened didn’t happen

I read a quote recently, but it was late, and I forget the source. The quote, paraphrased: "I forgive my oppressors over and over, but my oppressor will never forgive me."

as a lyricist he is from hell (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 11 November 2023 16:11 (one year ago) link

Horseshoe, thank you for posting, though increasingly I feel, like you, that posting about this issue online is a mistake.

I am Irish and I totally feel where you’re coming from. We still have the UK government this very year legalising atrocities, including the murder of children, that happened in living memory and making government reports of said atrocities undisclosable for decades. So I get it. I say it not to lean on the weak side - not at all, not remotely - but because I pretty strongly believe that the deaths have to stop. There doesn’t seem to be any end in sight atm.

People upthread are aghast at the notion that violence creates terrorism, that people might respond to violence with violence, but of course it does and of course they do. There are so many documented cases of this. Maybe you need to be from a background where people were oppressed by an occupying force to fully understand that. Bloody Sunday was a better recruitment tool for the IRA than anything they could have done themselves. Most peace processes don’t end in truth and reconciliation - you know how strong the Hindutva movement is in India and how scary it is. I’m not denying any of those problems, just that the end has to be an end to the deaths, and the success of any peace process is how that’s done too. You have to give people alternatives.

mojo dojo casas house (gyac), Saturday, 11 November 2023 16:17 (one year ago) link

<3 gyac thank you for that post. Maybe weirdly essentialist to say, but Irish leaders and regular people speaking with clarity about Gaza have been a source of reassurance for me in the past month. Also, perhaps more trivially, the first time I saw the first episode of Derry Girls and the British army boards the bus the girls are on and everyone barely reacts, I was like, this is Kashmir.

horseshoe, Saturday, 11 November 2023 16:23 (one year ago) link

Back at you! I grew up south of the border though have friends and family up there or from there but the one time as a child I went over the border, we had armed soldiers board our school tour bus and go through our bags and examine the £ we had brought with us. It was so scary, and when I saw that scene as an adult, it really made me think of how normal that shit was for my friends and family up there.

mojo dojo casas house (gyac), Saturday, 11 November 2023 16:28 (one year ago) link

Great posts recently. I want to say more when I’m not on my phone, but thank you horseshoe, gyac, fgti et al

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Saturday, 11 November 2023 16:35 (one year ago) link

People upthread are aghast at the notion that violence creates terrorism, that people might respond to violence with violence, but of course it does and of course they do.

Thanks for saying this, gyac.

butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Saturday, 11 November 2023 16:38 (one year ago) link

Yeah that’s my cue to exit this thread. I didn’t say that for you to agree with, especially in the light of my earlier posts.

mojo dojo casas house (gyac), Saturday, 11 November 2023 16:45 (one year ago) link

Fwiw I appreciated the rest of that post, too. I know you'll tell me to fuck off, perhaps deservedly from some perspectives, but oh well.

butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Saturday, 11 November 2023 17:21 (one year ago) link

Yonatan Touval
@Yonatan_Touval
#BREAKING: Israeli cabinet told that up to 1,700,000 Gazans (out of a total population of 2.2 million) are no longer able to live in their own homes, either because they've been displaced or because their homes have been destroyed/damaged.

xyzzzz__, Saturday, 11 November 2023 19:45 (one year ago) link

Almost there!

Tahuti Watches L&O:SVU Reruns Without His Ape (unperson), Saturday, 11 November 2023 19:51 (one year ago) link

You can just feel Israel getting safer every day

Humanitarian Pause (Tracer Hand), Saturday, 11 November 2023 20:20 (one year ago) link

The thing is they are displaced within Gaza. There isn't anywhere else for them to go. I don't even see how this achieves any sort of "ethnic cleansing" goal, and yet the destruction is so great there will be nothing for them to go back to for a long time. Contrary to any fantasy the Israeli right may have, I don't think Egypt would let them resettle in Sinai even if some of the displaced people wanted to, and I doubt there is the infrastructure for it either. I just don't get it. Maybe I'm wrong, and the plan is even more diabolical than I see, but it feels to me like there is no real, workable plan -- and that's a special kind of horror.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Saturday, 11 November 2023 20:32 (one year ago) link

Well, there doesn't seem to be any real plan, but I'm sure cramming 2 million people into an even smaller space, and occupying and re-settling NOrthern Gaza will suit some elements in the Israeli government just fine. Just a tweak or two to the Iron Dome and it'll be perfect.

deep wubs and tribral rhythms (Boring, Maryland), Saturday, 11 November 2023 21:16 (one year ago) link

I really don’t think they are going to reoccupy and resettle Gaza anytime soon.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Saturday, 11 November 2023 21:57 (one year ago) link

Avi Dichter, current Minister of Agriculture, former Internal Security director, gave an interview today on Israeli TV and said, apparently, “this is what we are rolling out now. Nakba Gaza 2023.”

as a lyricist he is from hell (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 11 November 2023 22:13 (one year ago) link

going to need a source for that (not that I disbelieve it, but would like to see it myself)

I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Saturday, 11 November 2023 22:20 (one year ago) link

that's weird I get a "can't link to this website" message from that link

twitter embeds are fine. its links to giant threads on twitter that are an issue (IMO).

I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Saturday, 11 November 2023 22:26 (one year ago) link

For any Hebrew speakers...

"We are now actually rolling out the Gaza Nakba," says Avi Dichter, Israel's Minister for Agriculture and former head of Shin Bet.

pic.twitter.com/idUA5lnnmP

— Hanno Hauenstein (@hahauenstein) November 11, 2023

The First Time Ever I Saw Gervais (Tom D.), Saturday, 11 November 2023 22:32 (one year ago) link

fuck

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Saturday, 11 November 2023 22:41 (one year ago) link

oh man

horseshoe, Saturday, 11 November 2023 22:45 (one year ago) link

I didn't know who he was but apparently he has a history of invoking this idea.

I'm at a loss right now. I'm sorry.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Saturday, 11 November 2023 22:49 (one year ago) link

Similar but vaguer statements from Netanyahu in a press conf today, refuses to cede Gaza to PA

https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/benjamin-netanyahu/article-772829

as a lyricist he is from hell (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 11 November 2023 23:02 (one year ago) link

Not sure why anyone would be surprised by this tbh.

The First Time Ever I Saw Gervais (Tom D.), Saturday, 11 November 2023 23:38 (one year ago) link

There is not going to be an expulsion from Gaza, Dichter is full of shit, what a time for Israel to have a government of buffoons, maniacs, and crooks

Guayaquil (eephus!), Saturday, 11 November 2023 23:45 (one year ago) link

DEIR AL-BALAH, Gaza Strip (AP) — Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu pushed back Saturday against growing international calls for a cease-fire, saying Israel’s battle to crush Gaza’s ruling Hamas militants will continue with “full force.”

A cease-fire would be possible only if all 239 hostages held by militants in Gaza are released, Netanyahu said in a televised address.

The Israeli leader also insisted that after the war, now entering its sixth week, Gaza would be demilitarized and Israel would retain security control there. Asked what he meant by security control, Netanyahu said Israeli forces must be able to enter Gaza freely to hunt down militants.

He also rejected the idea that the Palestinian Authority, which currently administers autonomous areas in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, would at some stage control Gaza. Both positions run counter to post-war scenarios floated by Israel’s closest ally, the United States. Secretary of State Antony Blinken has said the U.S. opposes an Israeli reoccupation of Gaza and envisions a unified Palestinian government in both Gaza and the West Bank at some stage as a step toward Palestinian statehood.

For now, Netanyahu said, “the war against (Hamas) is advancing with full force, and it has one goal, to win. There is no alternative to victory.”

Pressure was growing on Israel after frantic doctors at Gaza’s largest hospital said the last generator had run out of fuel, causing the death of a premature baby, another child in an incubator and four other patients. Thousands of war-wounded, medical staff and displaced civilians were caught in the fighting.
In recent days, fighting near Shifa and other hospitals in northern Gaza has intensified and supplies have run out. The Israeli military has alleged, without providing evidence, that Hamas has established command posts in and underneath hospitals, using civilians as human shields. Medical staff at Shifa have denied such claims and accused Israel of harming civilians with indiscriminate attacks.

Shifa hospital director Mohammed Abu Selmia said the facility lost power Saturday.

“Medical devices stopped. Patients, especially those in intensive care, started to die,” he said by phone, with gunfire and explosions in the background. He said Israeli troops were “shooting at anyone outside or inside the hospital” and prevented movement between buildings.

Israel’s military confirmed clashes outside the hospital, but Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari denied Shifa was under siege. He said troops will assist Sunday in moving babies treated there and said “we are speaking directly and regularly” with hospital staff.

Amos Yadlin, a former head of Israeli military intelligence, told broadcaster Channel 12 that as Israel aims to crush Hamas, taking control of the hospitals would be key but require “a lot of tactical creativity,” without hurting patients, other civilians and Israeli hostages.

Six patients died at Shifa after the generator shut down, including the two children, spokesmen with the Hamas-run Health Ministry said.

The “unbearably desperate situation” at Shifa must stop now, the International Committee of the Red Cross director general, Robert Mardini, said on social media. U.N. humanitarian chief Martin Griffiths posted that “there can be no justification for acts of war in health care facilities.”

Elsewhere, the Palestinian Red Crescent said Israeli tanks were 20 meters (65 feet) from al-Quds hospital in Gaza City, causing “a state of extreme panic and fear” among the 14,000 displaced people sheltering there.

Israel’s military released footage which it said showed tanks operating in Gaza. The images showed shattered buildings, some on fire, and destroyed streets empty of anyone but troops.

A 57-nation gathering of Muslim and Arab leaders in Saudi Arabia called in their communique for an end to the war in Gaza and the immediate delivery of humanitarian aid. They also called on the International Court of Justice, a U.N. organ, to open an investigation into Israel’s attacks, saying the war “cannot be called self-defense and cannot be justified under any means.”

Netanyahu has said the responsibility for any harm to civilians lies with Hamas, which denied it was preventing people in Gaza City from fleeing.

The spokesman of the Hamas military wing said militants were ambushing Israeli troops and vowed that Israel will face a long battle. The Qassam Brigades spokesman, who goes by Abu Obaida, acknowledged in audio aired on Al-Jazeera that the fight is disproportionate “but it is terrifying the strongest force in the region.”

...Palestinian civilians and rights advocates have pushed back against Israel’s portrayal of the southern evacuation zones as “relatively safe.” They note that Israeli bombardment has continued across Gaza, including airstrikes in the south that Israel says target Hamas leaders but that have also killed women and children.

Demonstrations and outrage continued. Police said 300,000 Palestinian supporters marched peacefully in London, the largest such event there since the war started. Right-wing counterprotesters clashed with police.

FEAR GROWS INSIDE SHIFA
“Shelling and explosions never stopped,” said Islam Mattar, one of thousands sheltering at Shifa. “Children here are terrified from the constant sound of explosions.”

The Health Ministry told Al Jazeera there were still 1,500 patients at Shifa, along with 1,500 medical personnel and between 15,000 and 20,000 people seeking shelter.

Thousands have fled Shifa and other hospitals that have come under attack, but physicians said it’s impossible for everyone to get out.

"We cannot evacuate ourselves and (leave) these people inside,” a Doctors Without Borders surgeon at Shifa, Mohammed Obeid, was quoted as saying by the organization.

CASUALTIES RISE
More than 11,070 Palestinians, two-thirds of them women and minors, have been killed since the war began, according to the Health Ministry in Gaza, which does not differentiate between civilian and militant deaths. About 2,700 people have been reported missing and are thought to be possibly trapped or dead under the rubble.

At least 1,200 people have been killed in Israel, mainly in the initial Hamas attack, Israeli officials say. The military on Saturday confirmed the deaths of five reserve soldiers; 46 Israeli soldiers have been killed in Gaza since the ground offensive began.

Nearly 240 people abducted by Hamas from Israel remain captive.

About 250,000 Israelis have been forced to evacuate from communities near Gaza and along the northern border with Lebanon, where Israeli forces and Hezbollah militants have traded fire repeatedly.

“Hezbollah is dragging Lebanon into a possible war,” Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant said after meeting with soldiers stationed along the border.
Mroue reported from Beirut. Associated Press writers Julia Frankel in Jerusalem, Samy Magdy in Cairo and Baraa Anwer in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, contributed to this report.

dow, Saturday, 11 November 2023 23:46 (one year ago) link

My impression is that neither Israel, nor Hamas, nor the PA want the PA to govern Gaza

Guayaquil (eephus!), Saturday, 11 November 2023 23:48 (one year ago) link

the usa & eu have recently been pushing the idea of the pa governing gaza in the aftermath of the war. the pa has actually said they're open to it if it means a proper two-state solution that the usa forces israel to abide by, but that still seems pretty unlikely.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/09/world/middleeast/palestinian-authority-gaza.html

of course, israel absolutely doesn't want the pa to govern gaza because it would strengthen claims of palestinian statehood, but they also don't want the divide & conquer status quo of hamas staying in control now that hamas have proven to be more of a threat than they thought, so there aren't really any clearly good options for them and they're just throwing all sorts of ideas at the wall.

ufo, Sunday, 12 November 2023 00:58 (one year ago) link

Except the one that, yknow, would actually show some level of humanity

butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Sunday, 12 November 2023 03:26 (one year ago) link

Nimrod Flaschenberg
@Nimrod_Flash
·
8h
Netanyahu announced this evening that he will not allow the PA to take control of Gaza. This means Israel's official plan is to reoccupy Gaza indefinitely.
It's time for the US, Germany, and other backers of Israel to say this will not pass. It's quite simple.

xyzzzz__, Sunday, 12 November 2023 07:58 (one year ago) link

the usa has already publicly rejected the idea of israel reoccupying gaza and have continued to suggest that the palestinian authority should end up in charge. reportedly they've also been privately floating other ideas like having israel's arab neighbours be responsible for it (which none of them are interested in), or have some un peacekeeping force in charge of it (which israel has also rejected). there are pretty public differences there already

ufo, Sunday, 12 November 2023 08:51 (one year ago) link

Yes, moves are being made in the background...and here Macron has come out in support of the ceasefire, which is lol given he was banning protests a couple of weeks ago.

---
Waleed Shahid 🪬
@_waleedshahid
MACRON calls for a ceasefire on BBC: “I think the only solution we have is a ceasefire because it's impossible to explain we want to fight against terrorism by killing innocent people"

xyzzzz__, Sunday, 12 November 2023 10:23 (one year ago) link

Fractures in Europe are welcome.

xyzzzz__, Sunday, 12 November 2023 10:24 (one year ago) link

the usa has already publicly rejected the idea of israel reoccupying gaza and have continued to suggest that the palestinian authority should end up in charge. reportedly they've also been privately floating other ideas like having israel's arab neighbours be responsible for it (which none of them are interested in), or have some un peacekeeping force in charge of it (which israel has also rejected). there are pretty public differences there already

Israel to the USA: "Suck It"

The First Time Ever I Saw Gervais (Tom D.), Sunday, 12 November 2023 12:30 (one year ago) link

How would you describe the settler movement?

I see the settler movement today as a direct continuation of the settler movement of a hundred and twenty, thirty, forty years ago. I see it as a chapter in the history of Zionism, and we are in one of those chapters of modern Zionism. Settlement is the way to return to Zion.

You said, "Settlement is the way to return to Zion”?

Yes. It’s the end of the dispersion and the beginning of the revival of the Jewish nation in this homeland.

What are the borders of that Jewish nation?

The borders of the homeland of the Jews are the Euphrates in the east and the Nile in the southwest. [This would include the territory of multiple Middle Eastern countries as well as the territory that Israel controls today.]

There’s a Palestinian slogan that has become very controversial: “From the river to the sea,” which means from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea. It’s controversial because it would include all the land that currently makes up Israel. But you’re saying from the river to the—

What is controversial?

Palestinians sometimes use the slogan “From the river to the sea.” But what you’re saying is that from the river to the Nile is the Jewish homeland, correct?

Of course. If someone decides to invent a new religion today, who will decide the rules? The first nation that got the word from God, the promise from God—the first nation is the one who has the right to it. The others that follow—Christianity and Islam, with their demands, with their perceptions—they’re imitating what existed already. So, why in Israel? They could be anywhere in the world. They came after us, in the double sense of the world.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extreme-ambitions-of-west-bank-settlers

Posted that yesterday. Knew quite a bit of the mindset at a high level but not the bit I pulled out, where she said the land they think is theirs stretches even further into the middle east.

xyzzzz__, Sunday, 12 November 2023 17:32 (one year ago) link


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