Anti-semitism thread: onwards from 2023

yeah, I don’t think of Muslim anti-Semitism as being old, either. Of course, being raised Muslim I might be blind to an ugly history.

There is a lot of reference to conflict with Jews in the Qur’an, but my understanding is that that has to do with the social circumstances the Bedouins were in and actual military hostilities between them and neighboring Jewish tribes (of course in this era, uneasy relations between tribes were the norm.) I remember a Muslim scholar once observing that Muslim conflicts with people of the book tilted toward Christians for the next millennium (Crusades, etc.)

I have definitely heard Muslim acquaintances and family members express anti Semitic sentiments when venting their spleen about actions taken by the Israeli government. This has mostly taken the form of eliding Israel with Jewish people writ large. Historically, it made me try to avoid the discussions at all, but I now regret that. As a non-Jew, it was my responsibility to challenge the anti-Semitism as it arose and disambiguate the non bigoted critique of the country from participation in the sludge that is anti-Semitism.

I have definitely heard Muslim acquaintances and family members express anti Semitic sentiments when venting their spleen about actions taken by the Israeli government. This has mostly taken the form of eliding Israel with Jewish people writ large. Historically, it made me try to avoid the discussions at all, but I now regret that. As a non-Jew, it was my responsibility to challenge the anti-Semitism as it arose and disambiguate the non bigoted critique of the country from participation in the sludge that is anti-Semitism.

ugh my internet sucks so bad; sorry about the double post

my perception is that antiSemitism in the Muslim world is fairly young and springs from bad feeling about the conflict. As is the anti-Arab and anti-Muslim sentiment I have sometimes heard from American Jews who must have thought because I was college educated and not foaming at the mouth that I couldn’t possibly be Muslim.

I regret being a nice, polite liberal and staying quiet in the latter circumstances, too.

the new testament has some awful stuff in it too - ofc it was written before christianity and judaism were as distinct so what might have been seen as intra-jewish debates take on much darker meanings later on

I'm sure there is something analogous going on with how modern islamic antisemites use quran or hadiths but I don't know enough about it xps

there is for sure a lot of that and it is gross

That's good.

A follow up question.

I was wondering when you said

It seems to me that if supporters of a cease fire would also clearly state that they disagree with Hamas' mission to eliminate the existence of Israel that would go a long way.

Respectfully, I seriously doubt this. Also, Emmanuel Macron is calling for a ceasefire now; it’s not exactly a marginal position (except in the US). Bernie finally said it too.

― horseshoe, Friday, November 10, 2023 6:22 PM bookmarkflaglink

Do you believe it doesn't matter if people are unclear about whether Israel has a right to exist?

It would certainly matter to me. Even if just knowing who I'm dealing with.

I do think it’s hard to overstate the degree to which the Holocaust is just not central to the non Western world’s understanding of the 20th century; that was European business from their perspective, and I think much of the post-colonial world is pretty focused on their own grievances with Europe. I know that people in Muslim countries have taken up European antiSemitic texts like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in the twentieth and twenty first centuries, which is depressing af. And I have definitely encountered the conspiracist idea of a Jewish cabal controlling everything among Muslims.

I've heard plenty of antisemitic stuff from muslims I worked with and went to school wikt - mostly starting with support for Palestine, "the jews" first used to mean israeli settlers but quickly broadening into the kind of conspiracy shit that took over a lot of the UK left and anti-war movements from the mid 00s onwards

a lot of them changed their minds after being challenged, learning more about history, actually meeting Jewish people, etc. ofc a few were just intractable bigots including an iranian counsellor I had as a teen who noticed my german name and tried to bond with me over hitler

Do you believe it doesn't matter if people are unclear about whether Israel has a right to exist?

It would certainly matter to me. Even if just knowing who I'm dealing with.

― felicity, Sunday, November 12, 2023 12:37 PM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I think that framing of the question—that of Israel’s right to exist—doesn’t particularly resonate with me. It feels like abstract rights discourse is an odd fit for the material, violent underpinnings of all nation states. Does the United States have a right to exist? Does Pakistan? Probably not and both nations have done and continue to do a lot of harm, but they’re here, and I don’t anticipate them disappearing or being dismantled. I don’t want them to. It would complicate my own life as a US citizen, for sure, but my life isn’t worth more than the lives of the slaughtered indigenous people or enslaved Africans whom this country assaulted.

if my presence in this thread is upsetting to you or anyone else more directly affected by antiSemitism, I’m happy to bow out.

there is also a perception among people who have experienced colonialism that their suffering and atrocities they've survived are never taken as seriously as jewish suffering which is deeply unfortunate all round and is made much worse by a media that loves pitting Jews and their struggles against those other minorities in a zero sum way xps

The other day, a social media friend posted a video of someone (probably in his 30's or 40's) defending the ongoing bombings by going through all the peace deals and land negotiations officially rejected by Palestinians. (FWIW, at this point, I would say the overwhelming majority of my friends and acquaintances on social media who are Jewish are horrified by Israel's disproportionate response to Hamas, but there are five, maybe six who have maintained an uncompromising, hardline stance and this is one of them.) The information is not wrong - those were indeed failed agreements - but what's extremely unsettling to me is when his argument spends so much time in the mid-20th century, going back to the 1940's. In other words, these are events involving individuals who are likely no longer around. It's inherent to any lasting peace that you have to look forward, to understand from a practical perspective that the real hope for peace lies with newer generations who are physically removed from past conflicts and disagreements. I was already demoralized that the past month has already ensured generations of new hatred, of surviving children who will grow up angry and unforgiving for the atrocities they've now lived through whether it's the Oct. 7th massacre or the incessant bombings leveling Gaza, but a bleak future begins to look devoid of any hope if unforgiving blame can stretch back that far, at least for too many people.

It's not upsetting.

It's just from my background I can tell you that there is miles of difference from saying Israel should be held to every standard of international law and saying it shouldn't exist. I truly don't know if this is something non-Jewish people can understand.

Becuase of my background on my mother's side as well I don't know if I can be sorted into the colonizer or colonizer class. She was occupied, forcibly moved, among a population that saw many unjustified killings by the Japanese and also the Russian and Chinese communists.

Also I don't consider myself white which seems to come up a lot in the rhetoric. Thankfully few people have tried to argue this with me.

xp

To more directly answer your question (I didn’t mean to obfuscate; I just get distracted), I do not personally advocate that Israel cease to exist. I’ve always taken that as inflammatory rhetoric that Hamas and other shit-starters engage in to get a reaction. Israel has kicked ass every time conflict has become more-than-rhetorical. Again, applying a standard of legitimacy to Israel that I wouldn’t to the United States seems nakedly anti-Semitic. But I am uncomfortable with sentimental attachment to a nation; a lot of Kashmiris I know are attached to Pakistan because they view it as a “Muslim homeland” alternative to India, and…I mean, I do not want that. I both understand why European 19th century style nationalism appeared progressive and good when it arose and cast a jaundiced eye on its outcomes.

maybe I still haven’t answered your question, Felicity. I guess, I don’t think a lot about whether other advocates of Palestinian liberation want Israel to “end” because it seems like wanting to live in a world of make-believe, to erase the past 100ish years) Most activists I know who organize for a free Palestine don’t want that, for what it’s worth. If I heard someone say it, I would have follow up questions for sure. When I have heard it from a American leftists/Muslims, it has seemed like posturing.

I mean, also, it seems like what is in danger of ceasing to exist is Palestinians.

As of today, that is certainly the greater danger.

To more directly answer your question (I didn’t mean to obfuscate; I just get distracted), I do not personally advocate that Israel cease to exist.

I really appreciate this. It means everything.

I didn't think you were obfuscating either. I think these are very emotional issues and it's hard to focus and think straight when you are fearful of being accused of this or that.

And I absolutely sympathize and emphathize with the existential threat to Palestinian people. I think we have a lot in common that way.

Yes both of you otm

what does saying Israel shouldn't exist mean to you? does it imply something genocidal? or that Jews shouldn't have anywhere where they can be safe?

I'm not sure what my responsibility is here or if I should even be engaging considering my ancestors are a small part of the reason Israel became a lifeline to millions of people. I have considered that I should never talk about the subject at all. at the same time I can't ignore or punish the people of Gaza because of my inherited guilt that they have nothing to do with. I need to learn to sit with the uncertainty and contradictions and avoid my usual kneejerk reactions. I want to jump in and fix things with easy answers which is not helpful to anyone.

Well, I think there's what it could theoretically imply and what it practically implies. Theoretically, it could imply some kind of binational democratic state with equal rights for all. That sounds fine to me, but I don't live in Israel nor do I intend to, so easy for me to say. I don't think it actually has much support as an idea on either side. That, of course, doesn't mean that can never change, we just aren't very close to it now. There are also all kinds of demographic prognostications in play about who would *really* control the state if that were to happen. And of course there are fears of retribution and retaliation and civil war (in fact I think there could also be intra-Jewish and intra-Palestinian civil war).

I think it's important not to imagine that if you create a power vacuum, it will necessarily be filled with the thing you hope for. We see this play out over and over again, where we naively assume an overthrown repressive state will be replaced with democracy, and instead it is replaced by whoever is best organized, often another repressive group.

Not that this is really immediately on the table anyway. But Hamas's political goal has been to simply resist until Israel is gone, and Israel's goal under Likkud has been to erase the possibility of a Palestinian state. I do hold Israel particularly responsible for failure to do more on the settlement issue before Likkud took power. I want to scan and post a great essay from 1967 or 68 by Yeshayahu Leibowitz called "The Territories." He basically predicted that the occupation of the West Bank would be a disaster for Israel and that the fantasy of creating a "secure border" was illusory as long as Israel antagonized whoever was immediately on the other side of that border. I can't really speak to whether or where Palestinian leadership went wrong or what they were or weren't truly willing to give up under Oslo vs what they said. Negotiations are a poker game, intent is very hard to discern. But I do know that Israel has made it harder to negotiate by settling the territories, and I hold Israel responsible for that.

I think a lot of us here find ourselves in the difficult position of wanting something for Israel/Palestine that a lot of people there don't want, and that the current Israeli government is trying to destroy (and that Hamas also tried to destroy, fwiw, as their entire raison d'etre is non-capitulation to the Israeli state on anything, but I still hold Israel more responsible). I am constantly struggling with this dilemma, and as much as I would like to just wash my hands of it, I don't feel like I can, because I am too personally connected to it.

I really appreciate the reasonable and thoughtful discussion happening here. I especially appreciate the input of horseshoe, for lots of reasons but specifically for a vantage that incorporates or at least has referenced the partition of India, which may (or may not) be a model going forward. (I only say that like that because I'm not particularly well versed in its history or specific repercussions.) Conveniently, India and Pakistan have existed as they are for about as long as Israel has (a product of similar colonial meddling). Has that partition been considered a success? I'd love to know why, or why not, or how.

I would certainly not look to India and Pakistan and the partition as a model for anything!

Assuming Israel and Palestine are one day split into two, there would seem to be parallels. No?

I can only speak for myself but I think it’s a disaster. It’s fairly positional. I suppose if you’re an upper-caste Hindu nationalist, it’s working out okay for you right now, but I imagine even those people are occasionally kept up at night with anxieties about the potential for nuclear war. More specifically, Partition itself unleashed waves of brutal sectarian violence that no one has forgotten, that continue to echo in today’s sectarian violence in the subcontinent. There are plenty of Muslims (and Sikhs, and Christians, etc) in the putative Hindu sanctuary of India, and that’s been working out less and less well for them. Tolerance was enshrined in the Indian constitution in 1948, but Modi has actually removed that language and the majority of Indians seem to agree that tolerance has failed. Pakistan has repeatedly oppressed its religious minorities and also its Muslim populations (Bangladesh) and is just a terrible kleptocracy that is corrupt and terrible.

Again, my family is Kashmiri Muslims, so I have a Point of View on the whole thing. Kashmir…is going to be unrecognizable soon I think; properties considered valuable are going to be settled by Indian Hindus and Muslims will be priced out or killed. Partition was bad, and at this point I am not sure how to staunch the bleeding.

lol Tom D. much pithier and otm

Thanks for that. To be clear, I didn't mean a model as in something to be emulated, something that works, just as an example of how things might turn out. Which doesn't bode well.

Given that India and Pakistan spent nearly 20 years fighting over a glacier, it’s definitely not a model to follow. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siachen_conflict

https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/suspect-arrested-in-death-of-jewish-man-after-socal-pro-israel-and-pro-palestinian-rallies/3270208/

A man has been arrested in the death of a 69-year-old Jewish man who suffered fatal injuries at dueling pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian rallies in Thousand Oaks.

Loay Alnaji, 50, of Moorpark, was arrested Thursday at his home on suspicion of involuntary manslaughter in the death of Paul Kessler. Alnaji's bail will be set at $1 million, according to the Ventura County Sheriff's Department.

Details about what led to the arrest were not immediately available. In a news release announcing the arrest, the sheriff's department did not provide details about the altercation between Kessler and Alnaji at the Nov. 5 rally in the community northwest of Los Angeles.

It was not immediately clear whether Alanji has an attorney who can speak on his behalf. The Ventura County District Attorney's Office said a charging decision is expected by later Thursday and a case status update will be issued at that time.

Analji was identified as an employee with the Ventura County Community College District, where he was employed as a computer science professor. The district said in a statement released Thursday that Analji was placed on administrative leave.

Huh, go figure:

"Antisemitism was rising online. Then Elon Musk’s X supercharged it."

https://wapo.st/47GpBEA

was arrested Thursday at his home on suspicion of involuntary manslaughter

Seems right. You give a guy a shove, he trips, hits his head and dies, that's the charge. And yet when this happened my feed was evenly split betweeen "elderly Jew murdered by crazed Arab / woke prof" and "the Zionist lunged at the peaceful protester who had no choice but to meekly defend himself with his megaphone." And I'm sure those same people will now be evenly split between "FREE ALNAJI" and "the short prison sentence he's likely to get is a slap on the wrist that emboldens the pro-Hamas tendency on campus."

"Antisemitism was rising online. Then Elon Musk’s X supercharged it."

I'm just gonna come out and say it, and you guys are probably gonna think I'm naive, but I am pretty surprised that Musk just went straight to classic "Jews in the shadows are behind everything" antisemitism. And I still don't know whether to think something has gone organically wrong with his brain or whether from the very beginning when he talked about "free speech" he meant "the freedom to reveal the shadowy Jews behind everything is in danger from the shadowy Jews who control the means of information transmission." I can't rule that out!

The ADL is now cool with him cause he’s pro-Israel

Well I'm not the ADL

And I think Musk is about as pro-Israel as John fucking Hagee

Cool, cool

🚨ADVISORY! 🚨
Masked neo-Nazis have been spotted at the Library Mall marching toward the Capitol Building. They look like they might be Blood Tribe but unconfirmed. More info to follow as it becomes available.
Please stay safe! pic.twitter.com/bpILMsVgFd

— MadCityRWWatch (@WiRWWatch) November 18, 2023

It’s so weird for an extremely powerful billionaire to complain that Jews control things. Like he has more power than all but a handful of people in the entire world. Unless Jewish space lasers blew up his latest launch.

But he lacks the freedom to say whatever racist or anti-semitic shit he imagines, that's the rub.

must be economic insecurity

But the thing is despite being perhaps the most powerful and autonomous man in history, he doesn’t have 100% power to just control reality. So it must be the Jews.

Lots of people disagree and/or dislike like him, and objectively this can't be the case if people were acting with free will, but as we know individual agency doesn't exist it is a question of who is pulling the strings. He is now in a powerful position and is pulling the strings and yet.....thre are still people not playing ball.

This can only mean there are more strings that people somehow further up than him are pulling

dilettante and anvil fully otm about how this psychology works

I wish I could find it now but a couple of years ago I read a long article about Tolyatti, and if I recall correctly it had something about the city mafia boss and then an FSB head meeting, and one of them asking "yes but who is pulling the strings really", and that at the top there was still the perception someone further up was really controlling things (which may just have been a function of the fact their control wasn't omnipotent)

The point being I guess that leaders and powerful people aren't immune to conspiratorialism, may even be more prone to it, as controllers themselves and perceiving the world through a controller/controlled lens

only the Jews could be so devious as to get him shadowbanned on his own website

Also, I think some of this stuff is anti-semitism, but some isn't anti-semitism - but these aren't completely distinct, and some of the stuff that isn't anti-semitism today could become so tomorrow

For a lot of people with this mindset, its not necessarily Jewish people that are pulling these other strings, its the CIA, its capitalists, its Americans - and there's nothing inherently anti-semitic about that. But there's overlap and underlying thinking is the same

So its not just individuals that have no agency, the same is true for movements such as color revolutions or Maidan. Its also why Ukraine isn't real, and neither is Ecuador, Albania, or New Zealand.

I don't feel like posting this on the Israel thread(s), but I thought this was some interesting context/background for those Philly restaurant protests. Apparently this group has been antagonistic to Israeli restaurants for years. They consider Israeli food Palestinian culinary appropriation. This is a story I saw from a couple of years ago:

https://philly.eater.com/2021/6/23/22546803/philadelphia-food-festival-canceled-apologies-israeli-food-truck

And this was a more recent piece about the failure of "food diplomacy":

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/03/dining/israel-hamas-war-divides-american-chefs.html

I don't think it's anti-Semitism, but it does seem like small potatoes (no pun intended) in the grand scheme of things, and a waste of energy on the part of protestors. But then, I also feel it's kind of ridiculous when any group claims exclusive rights to any particular cuisine, given that historically food has always been a fusion of influences and ingredients.

It’s like this group never heard of Mizrahi Jewish people?

I think (and this *is* suited to the anti-Semitism thread) that a lot of people conflate Judaism with Eastern-European immigrants. Maybe because they're more easily recognizable as immigrants? But of course there are Jews in Israel from all over, including from the middle east and Africa. My rabbi growing up was from Morocco.