Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

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Yair Wallach
@YairWallach
The options I see:
1. Israel invades south Gaza, removes Hamas, mass loss of life
2. Israel withdraws from north Gaza, large prisoner swap deal, Hamas stays in power
3. Israel remains in north Gaza, Hamas, refugees, hostages remain in the south. Stalemate for months? years?

---

Wallach goes for 3, which is ofc unstable.

xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 22 November 2023 23:57 (one year ago)

There is a fourth option, which I think is most likely: Israel continues to deepen the humanitarian crisis via blockades and bombardment, to a point where mass evacuation, first to Sinai, then to other places, is seen as merciful. Already the narrative is quickly shifting— people are expressing relief when those in Gaza are able to escape.

Even “just waiting” works in the favour of Smotrich and his policy of “letting Gaza collapse”; the living conditions are already such that contamination and disease will do a better job in “killing Gazans” over the next weeks than bombardment has done so far

meaner stinks meat bake it cone (flamboyant goon tie included), Thursday, 23 November 2023 03:36 (one year ago)

contamination and disease will do a better job in “killing Gazans” over the next weeks than bombardment has done so far

The Iraq War can testify to that harsh reality.

more difficult than I look (Aimless), Thursday, 23 November 2023 04:11 (one year ago)

On the Apartheid thing - If Israel were to end the blockade of Gaza and exit the West Bank, would that functionally end the apartheid or apartheid like system? Palestinians within Israel are able to vote (but they're called Israeli Arabs not Palestinians, is this correct?).

So if they ended the military occupation they would be a democracy?

there's still systematic racism against palestinian citizens of israel, it's just not as severe as the situation under occupation in the west bank. in your scenario (assuming this means a proper two-state solution), then yes israel would be a proper democracy but still a rather racist one without further reforms, those aren't contradictory.

There is a fourth option, which I think is most likely: Israel continues to deepen the humanitarian crisis via blockades and bombardment, to a point where mass evacuation, first to Sinai, then to other places, is seen as merciful. Already the narrative is quickly shifting— people are expressing relief when those in Gaza are able to escape.

this seems to be the preferred option of the israeli government but you have to hope it doesn't happen and could easily mean a wider war

1. Israel invades south Gaza, removes Hamas, mass loss of life
2. Israel withdraws from north Gaza, large prisoner swap deal, Hamas stays in power
3. Israel remains in north Gaza, Hamas, refugees, hostages remain in the south. Stalemate for months? years?

idk if 'removing hamas' is so certain if they do invade the south (which does seem likely enough still) but 'mass loss of life' is a given. i don't know how or why 3. would even happen. what reason would the idf have to just stick around in north gaza for months? years? doing nothing. that doesn't achieve anything much for them does it? the actual potential stalemate situation would be trying to invade south gaza but failing to actually score victories against hamas?

ufo, Thursday, 23 November 2023 06:07 (one year ago)

@ ufo, my “fourth option” wasn’t being presented as a preference, but as my interpretation of a most-likely outcome. Call it Overton window or call it manufactured consent, I’ve been arguing for weeks that this is Israel’s only intention and the most-likely outcome— and it’s even working on me. Personally, on Nov 21, I’d prefer to see 2m Gazan refugees than 15k more dead Gazans.

Man alive touched on this: I think too it is easy (and accurate) to scream at Biden for enabling genocide, but that his current policy is aimed toward one thing only: preventing other countries from entering the war. I don’t admire the decisions he’s making but I think it’s more complicated than pure complicity as people have argued. I reiterate that I wish he’d call the CIA and murder Netanyahu etc. right away for best results tho.

meaner stinks meat bake it cone (flamboyant goon tie included), Thursday, 23 November 2023 06:34 (one year ago)

Oh shit it’s already Nov 23.

meaner stinks meat bake it cone (flamboyant goon tie included), Thursday, 23 November 2023 06:34 (one year ago)

perhaps the US not giving Israel the funding and persisting with the no red lines policy towards their actions in Gaza (including a genocidal war of annihilation) would actually be a very effective way of preventing other Arabic countries from entering the war. That seems pretty obvious to me.

vodkaitamin effrtvescent (calzino), Thursday, 23 November 2023 07:27 (one year ago)

alas, the CIA only murder democratically elected left-wing leaders

vodkaitamin effrtvescent (calzino), Thursday, 23 November 2023 07:34 (one year ago)

"Preventing other countries from entering the war" rings hollow. What other Arab countries are poised to enter the war? Syria is a disaster, Jordan's certainly not going to, Egypt is barely holding its shit together, Iran/Hezbollah are already engaged in southern Lebanon, Saudi Arabia is pro-Israel, the UAE buys a lot of weapons FROM Israel.

papal hotwife (milo z), Thursday, 23 November 2023 08:05 (one year ago)

"Fear that Arab and Muslim states might be forced by internal pressure to de-normalize relations with Israel" might be a more accurate way to put it but, uh, boo-hoo.

papal hotwife (milo z), Thursday, 23 November 2023 08:07 (one year ago)

Which other Arabic countries would enter the war? I don't see any having either the appetite or the capacity to do anything, most only have palace guard militaries. Outside of that there's only really Iran that has both the capacity and the appetite, either directly or via Hezbollah. I guess Hezbollah is a de facto military being stronger than the Lebanese military

Even the thawing of relations is only paused not ended. Feels like most Arabic countries are making just enough movement to placate domestic audience, but not sure about anything beyond that

anvil, Thursday, 23 November 2023 08:11 (one year ago)

that was an xp, hence the overlap

anvil, Thursday, 23 November 2023 08:16 (one year ago)

also wouldn't all the US/UK military assistance deployed in the region be the reason other countries wouldn't really fancy it? I think to credit sleepy Joe when he sleepwalking through this on the US default setting towards Israel, with playing some nuanced diplomacy game is just pure projection.

vodkaitamin effrtvescent (calzino), Thursday, 23 November 2023 08:18 (one year ago)

https://t.co/kejiV1SUtq pic.twitter.com/Mu0ADkEQbo

— Austin Ahlman (@austinahlman) November 22, 2023

xyzzzz__, Thursday, 23 November 2023 08:47 (one year ago)

Sorry interview already posted in the correct thread. Just another amazing interview

xyzzzz__, Thursday, 23 November 2023 08:49 (one year ago)

alas, the CIA only murder democratically elected left-wing leaders

Oh I know, I’m just speaking wishfully; several of my friends are posting about how they’d like Netanyahu to take the ceasefire as an opportunity to step down; better that Yair Lapid et al organize some kind of gtfo plan with popular support

“Other nations entering the war” is literally giving me nightmares; if you guys think it’s unlikely it is relaxing to hear. I worry that Netanyahu’s intentions becoming more obviously ghastly will cause Biden to justifiably listen to his conscience and speak up, pull out, and suddenly it’s full-tilt Iran-Jordan-Lebanon declarations; but these are my nightmares! maybe not reality

meaner stinks meat bake it cone (flamboyant goon tie included), Thursday, 23 November 2023 08:51 (one year ago)

@ ufo, my “fourth option” wasn’t being presented as a preference, but as my interpretation of a most-likely outcome. Call it Overton window or call it manufactured consent, I’ve been arguing for weeks that this is Israel’s only intention and the most-likely outcome— and it’s even working on me. Personally, on Nov 21, I’d prefer to see 2m Gazan refugees than 15k more dead Gazans.

oh i wasn't suggesting you preferred it, just agreeing with it as a possible outcome and likely what the israeli government prefers. i really don't know how likely it is though - the us was originally open to it, but egypt has seriously threatened war over it and the us of course really does not want a wider war. it would also really only happen if israel secures military victory over hamas which seems like a dubious prospect?

re: escalation - hezbollah is the main threat- there's obviously conflict there but it's still not really full-on, but if they did escalate there's all sorts of potential chaos that results - the usa has obviously threatened retaliation and there's all sorts of iranian-backed militias in iraq etc. that could get further involved. i figure that at this point it is probably unlikely unless hamas is seriously in trouble, or some wider chaos breaks out for other reasons? egypt also sees the possibility of having to deal with 2 million refugees who are ideologically hostile to it as an existential threat and has threatened war if that happens. the houthis in yemen are trying to get involved as they can be from where they are but don't have the means to get more directly involved.

ufo, Thursday, 23 November 2023 09:28 (one year ago)

Reading this piece on "from the river to the sea" and it lines up with our conversation yesterday on how Israeli democracy is enabling what might have been fringe ideas to take centre stage in an eliminationist turn.

"Between the sea and the Jordan there will be only Israeli sovereignty"

https://www.versobooks.com/en-gb/blogs/news/zionism-s-political-unconscious

xyzzzz__, Thursday, 23 November 2023 10:04 (one year ago)

"the central contradictions of this settler-nation have become ever harder to sustain: the state can be either Jewish or democratic, but it cannot be both. Unable to give up its commitment to the former, the need to change the demographic balance once again comes to the fore. For the radical right, that truth is easily spoken out loud. For Jewish-Israelis who consider themselves more centrist, liberal even, perhaps the opportunity offered by this war is the only way out: transfer in the name of humanitarian concern. Once out, as every Palestinian knows, they will never be allowed to return."

xyzzzz__, Thursday, 23 November 2023 10:06 (one year ago)

Following on from yesterday's discussion on Palestinian prisoner exchange.

https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/11/22/23972908/palestinian-prisoners-israel-administrative-detention

"In 2022, Amnesty International released a comprehensive report pointing to the practice of administrative detention as just one example of how the Israeli state subjugates Palestinians and cracks down on dissent. Since 1967, Israel has issued over 1,000 military orders that criminalize a range of activities in Palestinians’ daily lives, including waving political symbols like flags, being in certain areas without permits, and any kind of speech that can fit into a loosely defined charge of “incitement.” Citing decades of evidence, the Amnesty report outlined an “intentional Israeli policy to detain individuals, including prisoners of conscience, solely for the non-violent exercise of their right to freedom of expression and association, and punish them for their views.”"

xyzzzz__, Thursday, 23 November 2023 14:53 (one year ago)

Exploring the once-familiar streets of my city, now barely recognizable in the Zs' destruction. Every step is a journey through memories, anger and nostalgia. https://t.co/l50FRoCDYy

— Dr. Mustafa Elmasri (@Gaza_Psych) November 24, 2023

xyzzzz__, Friday, 24 November 2023 13:46 (one year ago)

If Israel lost support/funding/land/whatever, and Hamas gained land/support/funding/land/whatever, wouldn't they just ramp up their attacks

I think a relevant factor here is that when people have something, they have something to lose.

I just want to say in passing that if I'm on the Facebook app and scrolling, it'll regularly display "hey here's some stuff from Threads" and it's usually about this conflict, and when it is, it's always the most uninformed ahistorical nonsense (sadly not confined to one side) - I just want to say that this thread is doing really well and I'm proud of us.

Andrew Farrell, Friday, 24 November 2023 13:53 (one year ago)

Yeah my suggested Threads content is stunningly bad - “how dare you call for a ceasefire” vs “how dare you have a holiday meal celebrating another settler genocide”

JoeStork, Friday, 24 November 2023 16:22 (one year ago)

oh yeah it's absolutely trash and the issue is if you click on a single one of them, you will get 10,000 more.

I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Friday, 24 November 2023 16:31 (one year ago)

Meet Marah Bakir. She is from Jerusalem. She was 16 when she was arrested and detained by Israel. Today she was released. She is 24 years old. Her lawyer proved that she had done nothing wrong but still she was sentenced to prison.
Freedom feels good. pic.twitter.com/zwKKPPVn9g

— Dima Khatib (@Dima_Khatib) November 24, 2023

xyzzzz__, Friday, 24 November 2023 18:34 (one year ago)

Yeah, judging from the other accounts in the comments, that doesn't seem to be a particularly accurate summation.

Josh in Chicago, Friday, 24 November 2023 19:21 (one year ago)

That summation is fine enough for me. And one of many children locked up and forgotten about till today.

xyzzzz__, Friday, 24 November 2023 19:30 (one year ago)

Remi Kanazi
@Remroum
What a "pause" looks like for Palestinians:

~Palestinians shot at when returning home to the North, injuring dozens

~Israel fires teargas at prisoners set to be released at Ofer prison

~Israel storms the home of a Palestinian set to be released, harassing their family

xyzzzz__, Friday, 24 November 2023 19:49 (one year ago)

it does sound like she tried to stab some people to death. I'm not sure what the trial was like or what proof was shown though.

I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Friday, 24 November 2023 21:45 (one year ago)

Right.

xyzzzz__, Friday, 24 November 2023 21:49 (one year ago)

The WaPo story was the one I found the most tragic/sad. She allegedly stabbed or attempted to stab a solider, was in turn shot by the police during her arrest, then an Israeli solider (whose father was recently killed by stone throwing Palestinians) rushed to apply first aid, saving her life. Circle of violence.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/10/16/her-dad-was-killed-by-palestinian-stone-throwers-weeks-later-she-saved-a-suspected-stabbers-life/

Josh in Chicago, Friday, 24 November 2023 22:28 (one year ago)

Soldiers, border guards and cops in occupied lands are fair game IMO.

papal hotwife (milo z), Friday, 24 November 2023 22:33 (one year ago)

rasha abdulhadi
@rashaabdulhadi
·
4h
As we watch 150 of more than 10,000 kidnapped Palestinian hostages be released:

Remember that Palestinians can be taken by the settler apartheid state for no reason or any reason, can be held without charge or "trial" for any amount of time, & no "international law" intervenes

xyzzzz__, Friday, 24 November 2023 22:36 (one year ago)

An Israeli soldier from the Combat Engineering Corps dedicates to his daughter on her birthday by detonating an entire building in Gaza shortly before the commencement of the ceasefire.#GazaGenocide pic.twitter.com/J76wjK9jlL

— Hani Siliman Salamah 🇵🇸 (@HaniSiliman) November 25, 2023

xyzzzz__, Saturday, 25 November 2023 11:57 (one year ago)

Pelham
@Resist_05
Israel makes those imprisoned serve their full sentence in prison even if they’re dead…

142 Palestinians that have died in prison (mostly children) are kept in refrigerators as a form of collective punishment and psychological torture against their families

xyzzzz__, Saturday, 25 November 2023 21:32 (one year ago)

wtf!!

Humanitarian Pause (Tracer Hand), Saturday, 25 November 2023 21:50 (one year ago)

Come on, what even is that claim

mojo dojo casas house (gyac), Saturday, 25 November 2023 22:23 (one year ago)

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/israel-postmortem-detention/

papal hotwife (milo z), Saturday, 25 November 2023 22:25 (one year ago)

Thank you, wasn’t taking the word of a random Twitter account

mojo dojo casas house (gyac), Saturday, 25 November 2023 22:31 (one year ago)

i had similar reaction, did similar search, and found the same nation article. that shit is monstrous.

digital chirping and whirring (Hunt3r), Saturday, 25 November 2023 22:45 (one year ago)

At what point does Israel become the US's worst ally? Like, Saudi Arabia's still on top, right? But how long can that last?

Tahuti Watches L&O:SVU Reruns Without His Ape (unperson), Saturday, 25 November 2023 22:51 (one year ago)

That tweet has a video from an Al Jazeera interview.

xyzzzz__, Saturday, 25 November 2023 22:57 (one year ago)

Hard to guess that without a link to the tweet!

papal hotwife (milo z), Saturday, 25 November 2023 23:10 (one year ago)

Yeah I think it’s okay for us to post links here they can be useful.

deep wubs and tribral rhythms (Boring, Maryland), Sunday, 26 November 2023 02:13 (one year ago)

Should've just said that a video was posted. Forgot on that occasion.

This is a thread. And the bombing will begin again soon.

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corey robin
@CoreyRobin
·
22h
1/ "Israel’s assault is different. Experts say that even a conservative reading of the casualty figures reported from Gaza show that the pace of death during Israel’s campaign has few precedents in this century.

xyzzzz__, Sunday, 26 November 2023 12:18 (one year ago)

"The Israelis have released 117 Palestinians in the last 3 days & in that same time they've detained 116 new Palestinian prisoners.. across the occupied West Bank" pic.twitter.com/QiJfMFNrtR

— Saul Staniforth (@SaulStaniforth) November 27, 2023

xyzzzz__, Monday, 27 November 2023 12:28 (one year ago)

Here’s a personal story about Palestinian child prisoners:

- In 2012, I was arrested in Hebron while participating in a march to open Shuhada street, which was a main market street for Palestinians until the Israeli military shut it down, and made it for Israeli settlers only.…

— Fadi Quran (@fadiquran) November 26, 2023

papal hotwife (milo z), Tuesday, 28 November 2023 04:10 (one year ago)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/28/israeli-military-had-warning-of-hamas-training-for-attack-reports-say

Tom D has a right to defend himself (Tom D.), Tuesday, 28 November 2023 14:24 (one year ago)

so the leak points at the attack being meticulously planned rather than them being surprised at the lax security and killing more/taking far more hostages that they expected was possible.

vodkaitamin effrtvescent (calzino), Tuesday, 28 November 2023 14:48 (one year ago)

Rohan Talbot
@rohantalbot
·
4h
Incredibly, Shifa Hospital has reportedly been able to restart dialysis services today for patients needing it in the north

xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 28 November 2023 15:46 (one year ago)


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