Israel/Palestine post 10/7 - follow-on events/thoughts as relate to other countries

Yeah, I can tell.

Even the tenor of posts on the other thread occasionally veers not quite into conspiracy theory territory but "here is another bad thing said or done by an Israeli" with the implied collective effect of "Israelis are irredeemably bad people."

This is certainly not a perfect comparison - I hope it's not an offensive one! - but I've often been reminded of how I felt during the Iraq war, as a terminally online kid with a lot of US friends. I was obv opposed to it, but found the way it was discussed amongst a lot of ppl I knew irl very bothersome, just all these assumptions about Dumb, Arrogant Americans and v little acknowledgement of the popular opposition to it in the US. ppl on holidays getting roped into being asked to justify political decisions they didn't agree with in the first place, that kind of thing.

anyway in retrospect I don't know if I had my priorities right - international outrage over the conflict was justified and correct, the fact that it trickled down into a kind of boorish chauvinism perhaps inevitable with any movement that garners widespread public support. obv it wasn't cool my friends were set upon by so many ppl eager to treat them as official representatives of the US government, obv also this shouldn't even register on the list of injustices surrounding the conflict (goes without saying that muslims around the world were experiencing something similar at the same time to a far more extreme extent). but yeah it sucks to be viewed as a representative for your country's shitty political decisions, and it sucks that many ppl can't look at conflicts without a tribalist "everyone living in this nation is a baddie" lens.

I would argue that policing a tweet of a few words of an Israeli man to this extent is extremely weird and not remotely smart and cool.

― mojo dojo casas house (gyac), Thursday, 30 November 2023 bookmarkflaglink

Doing direct feedback on his posting might be, but unless YW posts in this corner of the web.

Bevins losing speaking engagements over that tweet is clearly ridiculous, and Germany's threats to criminalize pro-Palestine sentiment are egregious.

I do find it disingenuous for Bevins, who wrote a book on the effectiveness of mass protest movements, to say he couldn't possibly know enough to comment on the strategic effectiveness of the Hamas attack.

On the march against semitism that took place in London.

https://vashtimedia.com/2023/12/01/formats/opinion/a-long-way-from-cable-street-antisemitism-march-palestine/

surprise surprise meme

all these assumptions about Dumb, Arrogant Americans and v little acknowledgement of the popular opposition to it in the US.

Still understandable when you recall that at the start of the Iraq war polls showed the U.S. opposition to be very scant, with a huge majority in favor.

I met more Americans that were in favour than not at the time, though this says more about Americans on holiday in European cities than the population as a whole.

1. Remaining quiet is not the same as consent, given the extremely small chance of one's opposition even getting recognized, let alone having it affect the outcome.

2. I was actually there, on the Mall, and we made a lot of noise, and it made exactly no difference.

Someone should ask Joe Biden, Kier Starmer, Rishi Sunak etc if they’re pleased by the resumption of bombing, given their earlier opposition to a cease fire.

well my point wasn't that the Iraq war was opposed by the majority of Americans, it's that if you have a personal connection to a place, know actual people from there, it's natural to feel a certain defensiveness when these kind of blithe categorical statements about countries come up, even when those countries are objectively fucking up

I say "natural" as opposed to "correct" or "important" because yeah I don't know to what extent it's justified to focus on that when actual atrocities are happening, man alive's post just hit on some stuff that made me remember those times tho as I said the situations aren't analogous

also see: thinking everyone who lives in a Red State is a conservative

we are, we all converted the moment the election results told us to

americans should get over it imo

there was widespread support for the Iraq war in official media channels. Journalists like Pankaj Mishra have written about how it was incredibly difficult to get published if you wanted to critique what Bush was doing. pretty much out and out censorship of dissenting opinions.

there was a great deal of popular protest, but it was covered as though it was fringe, as though dissenting was tantamount to terrorism.

anecdotally, as an American Muslim who opposed the war, i was surprised by how many acquaintances on the left supported it even though they had been critical of American military ventures in the past.

part of why i am having a hard time shutting up in my critiques of Biden, Blinken, et al, these days is because i feel guilty about how relatively quietist i was then.

your culture is so dominant that even the dissident parts of it are well known internationally - people saying americans do this or that know they're making sweeping statements but american feelings aren't their priority xp

people saying americans do this or that know they're making sweeping statements but american feelings aren't their priority

Nah that wasn't true at all for the situation I was talking about, because opposition to the Iraq war in Europe was mainstreamed to an extent where every pub bore was at it - which was ofc good because it was 100% the right position.

Not an American obviously.

Ok, then do we get to blame England for Tony Blair

President keyes you are not ever gonna get any blowback from left or indeed most ukilx posters for attacking England for any reason at all, have you seen our threads

Ok, then do we get to blame England for Tony Blair

The UK not England. Personally I have no problem with, for instance, Europeans thinking the British are a bunch of Brexit-voting xenophobes, I know I'm not so why should I care?

personally I blame britain for america

and england for britain for that matter

That was a Scotsman's idea though.

How central is Joe Biden to the US's continued support for Israel?

Listen to the analysis of Rachel Maddow, broadcaster and author, on the latest #Americast

— BBC Sounds (@BBCSounds) December 1, 2023

Maddow going full on fan fic here

This is encouraging, at least:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/01/uaw-ceasefire-gaza

Jennifer Hodgson
@jenniferhodgson
·
2h
We saw police arrest 3 children at the sweet and peaceful Palestine rally in Brixton today

Seeing the odd journo claiming they have been sacked for signing this letter

https://www.protect-journalists.com/

Protester self-immolates outside Israeli consulate in Atlanta

Reuters

December 2, 2023 9:03 PM GMT+9

Anat Sultan-Dadon, consul general of Israel to the southeastern U.S., said in a statement, "We are saddened to learn of the self-immolation at the entrance to the office building. It is tragic to see the hate and incitement toward Israel expressed in such a horrific way. The sanctity of life is our highest value. Our prayers are with the security officer who was injured while trying to prevent this tragic act. We are grateful to the city of Atlanta’s law enforcement and first responders for all they do to ensure safety."

Probably one of the more vile things I have read all week tbh

these terrorists will stoop to anything won’t they

It’s becoming increasingly clear that Americans approve of « Israel’s military action in Gaza » is driven by racial factors. Two out of three person of color in the US are opposing it, and two out of three white Americans are supporting it. College education doesn’t have an… pic.twitter.com/sxAszZyVwj

— Mohamed Dhia Hammami - محمد ضياء الهمامي (@MedDhiaH) December 3, 2023

Who'd have thought?

Statement by Hisham Awartani, one of the three Palestinian students who was shot in Vermont:

https://theindy.org/article/3137

He is paralyzed from the chest down, there is a gofundme for him- will link if i can locate it again.

cool I had been wondering if there was one

What I’d like like to say about Sultan-Daron’s statement upthread is pretty much unprintable.

here is the gofundme:

https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-hishams-recovery

Jonathan Cook
@Jonathan_K_Cook
·
9h
Letter to the British Medical Journal questions how it's possible that, in its rampage on Gaza, Israel has waged an unprecedented attack on hospitals and health care workers, and yet there's been not a peep of protest from western medical associations, the World Health…

Table, I’m hearing from a friend in Philadelphia that some Palestine advocates are targeting/boycotting Jewish-owned businesses? How true is this?

People are boycotting and targeting businesses owned by Michael Solomonov, whose culinary empire doubles as soft propaganda for Israel. https://www.zahavrestaurant.com/chef.html

"Goldie, Goldie you can’t hide, we charge you with genocide," the protesters can be heard shouting in the video.

The protesters shouted outside the restaurant and vandalized it, officials said.

This is not a great look.

My friend who lives in South Philly said it was more than just one guy’s businesses, that other Jewish-owned businesses were getting targeted. If that’s true, I’m not sure that’s how BDS is meant to operate (I don’t buy Israeli produce or goods fwiw, but personalising Zahav guy in that way doesn’t sit right with me).

Solomonov has raised around 100k for IDF related charities, and that seems to be what groups are protesting. However there's also a boycott of other businesses:

Since October, though, the Philadelphia Free Palestine Coalition has targeted what they claim to be “Zionist” restaurants and owners for boycotting — a boycott that has targeted not just restaurants who raise money for the IDF, but any restaurant owned by those they identify as a “Zionist” or raising money for “Israel” (“the Zionist State,” in the organization’s words). The lack of clarity from the coalition around the parameters around how they define a “Zionist” individual have left some to interpreting that they’re mainly boycotting openly Jewish restaurant owners and chefs.

BDS certainly isn’t meant to target individuals. I don’t know about the Philly Free Palestine Coalition’s goals around any bans or boycotts.

That said, Solomonov is an apologist for Israeli fascism, and isn’t some small businessman. I don’t really have a lot to say about it other than that, because we’re probably not going to agree.

Meanwhile, those businesses are still open and doing pretty well, and hundreds of Palestinians are getting murdered by a religious fascist Israeli government every day, so I am not too concerned about them at the moment.

In what sense is he an "apologist for Israeli fascism?"

If you’re raising funds for the IDF and you have said stuff like the below quote in official interviews, sorry, it’s apologism.

"Representing Israel and being an ambassador for Israel is my life's work, as is representing Philly. I think both places are often misunderstood and not appreciated to their fullest."

can’t believe i honestly have to debate people about this, the guy raises money for the military forces that are committing atrocities.

See, in that case I would probably not want to eat at his places but I wouldn’t picket - I’d recommend Palestinian food elsewhere instead. The last time I picketed a restaurant was at a UK burger place that deceived its workers (some of whom were undocumented) into attending a staff meeting where Immigration Control were waiting for them.