Israel/Palestine post 10/7 - follow-on events/thoughts as relate to other countries

Here's a vid of a Congressman demanding specific profs to be fired:

UPenn's president tries to justify not firing faculty who have openly expressed antisemitic viewpoints.@RepJimBanks: "You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth. You're defending it." pic.twitter.com/NlqHtJhscx

— House Committee on Education & the Workforce (@EdWorkforceCmte) December 5, 2023

Okay, not anyone I know.

Still, completely absurd that this is happening at all IMHO. Just goes to show that Islamic students don’t matter to politicians or on college campuses.

One thing to keep in mind is that Philadelphia has the third highest Muslim population of any city in the US— a few blocks from UPenn’s main campus is an incredible and thriving Little Lebanon (tho of course it is made up of Lebanese, Palestinian, Yemeni, Tunisian, and other nationalities).

The anger at Solomonov is also part of this— even before the current conflict, he was accused of essentially appropriating Palestinian and Middle Eastern food and labeling it “Israeli.”

(Note that I merely know of these conflicts with Solomonov and am reporting them)

David Adler
@davidrkadler
BREAKING 🇮🇱🇩🇪 Starting this month, the German state of Saxony-Anhalt will require all applicants for German citizenship to submit a signed declaration of Israel's right to exist

Talk about overcompensating...

that house discussion was the lead up to this toothless resolution that conflates all anti-zionism with anti-semitism.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/05/politics/house-vote-resolution-condemning-antisemitism/index.html

that conflates all anti-zionism with anti-semitism.

― I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Tuesday, December 5, 2023 3:43 PM bookmarkflaglink

Not this again.

We've done this.

In this case it’s the Congress stating that anti-Zionism equals Antisemitism rather than folks on the internet arguing about it.

From Rep. Nadler’s opposition statement:

More problematically, the resolution suggests that ALL anti-Zionism is antisemitism. That is either intellectually disingenuous or just factually wrong. And it unfairly implicates many of my orthodox former constituents in Brooklyn, many of whose families rose from the ashes of the Holocaust.

While most anti-Zionism is indeed antisemitic, the authors, if they were at all familiar with Jewish history and culture, should know about Jewish anti-Zionism that was, and is, expressly NOT antisemitic. This resolution ignores the fact that even today, certain orthodox Hasidic Jewish communities—the Satmars in New York and others—as well as adherents of the pre-state Jewish labor movement have held views that are at odds with the modern Zionist conception.

According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, “the anti-Zionist world-view of the ultra-Orthodox groups . . . like the Satmar Hasidism perceives Zionism and the establishment of the State of Israel as an anti-messianic act. . .” This is to say that these ultra-orthodox Hasidic Jews believe that only the messiah can bring about the true Israel. And, I assure you, the Satmars are certainly NOT antisemitic.

I should also note that there are those who try to smear even progressive pro-Israel supporters with the inappropriate label of “Israel hater” or “anti-Zionist.” Under this resolution, those who love Israel deeply but criticize some of its policy approaches could be considered anti-Zionist. That could make every Democratic Jewish member of this body—because they all criticized the recent Israeli judicial reform package—de facto antisemites. Might that be the authors’ intention?

Again, let me be unequivocally clear: most anti-Zionism, particularly in this moment, has a real antisemitism problem. But we cannot fairly say that one equals the other.

this was a good report on it: https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/house-anti-semitism-resolution/

I'm agreeing with you.

The resolution was stupid and the correct vote was "present."

It distracted from the testimony of the hearing of the horrific conditions on US campuses. It was an accountability for antisemitism hearing. Not an accountability for antizionism hearing.

Both violence towards Muslim students and death threats to Jewish students are abhorrent. They don't cancel each other out.

Except only one seems to be a real priority on campuses at the moment?

I think that one of the reasons I am so frustrated with current conversations about college campus environments is that there is an execrable rise in hatred toward both Jewish students and Muslim students, but the institutions seem to be really addressing only the former while presuming that the latter is just business-as-usual.

This is to say: the amount of latent, even blatant, antisemitism on college campuses before 10/7 was awful and real, and so was the amount of Islamophobia. I have taught students who told me that they didn’t wear their hijab because of Islamophobic harassment, and that’s in a city like Philly with a huge (and racialized) Muslim population.

I guess this is all to say that I really want people to feel safe, yet I become really frustrated when it feels like one group’s safety is privileged over another’s, in an almost exact mirror image of how things are playing out in the larger conflict.

It's a really stupid resolution and it's depressing that it exists. It strikes me as potentially somewhat inconsequential, but I really don't want to see further moves toward a McCarthy-like inquest into antizionism (and I don't even label myself as an antizionist).

Muslim students being shot does not cancel out with words directed at anyone.

yet I become really frustrated when it feels like one group’s safety is privileged over another’s, in an almost exact mirror image of how things are playing out in the larger conflict.

― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Tuesday, December 5, 2023 6:40 PM bookmarkflaglink

Did you watch the hearing?

What they are talking about is not privileging any group at the expense of another. It is about providing education in an environment free of bullying and harassment based on national origin, race, or ethnicity in accordance with federal law. This is an incredibly low bar and applies to all protected groups.

It's a nefarious thing to twist legitimate opposition to antisemitism in the US, or any group for that matter, into an affront against other US groups. Any principled legal argument against discrimination or harassment based on national origin, race or ethnicity is also a principled argument against illegal discrimination and harassment affecting other protected groups. If opposing discrimination or harassment of any protected group upsets you, then you might have some issues.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/05/nine-arrested-over-pro-palestinian-banner-in-london

felicity, your post doesn’t address the heart of my post, and willfully misreads me as another effort to smear me. i won’t be interacting with you or your bad-faith arguments on this site any longer.

Maybe a weird question, but is anyone familiar with Nissim Black? He's coming to perform at a Jewish solidarity rally here next week. I'd never heard of him, on first glance he seems like kind of a religious kook. But I have no idea what his standing is culturally in Israel or elsewhere.

Israeli officials justify bombing Gaza by recalling the Allied bombing of Dresden.

2 problems with that argument:
1 The Geneva Convention was brought in after WW2 to prevent such mass killings of civilians.
2 The destruction in Gaza is already comparable after just 2 months. pic.twitter.com/0HVbuc38SC

— James Schneider (@schneiderhome) December 7, 2023

The bombing of Dresden was two days.

I believe the point is that the destruction is still ongoing in Gaza

yeah I'm not sure what he's trying to convey in that post. that said both situations are deplorable and no one should positively compare their actions to the bombing of dresden as though that were some kind of good thing. maybe Israel needs to read Slaughterhouse Five.

They've been using that analogy since the start of the bombing campaign.

Sorry, James Schneider is "Israel"? Why do people provide these Twix posts without source or attribution.

Bombing is bad, sexual assault as warfare is bad, hostage taking is bad. What source are we discussing.

The tweet is discussing what Israel have said and why that's a problem. I don't know who is saying "bombing etc. is good here".

Here is more on what's unique here.
---
@joolsd
·
43m
and i think uniquely among these kinds of campaigns there are no air raid shelters in gaza, unlike north vietnam, germany, britain, etc

Sorry, James Schneider is "Israel"?

uh, James Schneider was not in any way trying to identify himself as "Israel". Nor did he attribute the argument to "Israel" as a whole, but to "Israeli authorities", unspecified, but the implication is the people with some sort of governmental authority. Both of those are quite clear if you take a moment to read it slowly.

What are you saying then.

His tweet uses a PDF with no link to source. Not to say that it's misinformation, but a PDF rather than link where the source can be verified is often a giveaway for misinformation.

It's basically hearsay. So fine, discuss this guy's take. But's that's what it is.

I recognised that graph from the FT

https://www.ft.com/content/7b407c2e-8149-4d83-be01-72dcae8aee7b

What I was saying was that your response, as quoted, made no sense when compared to what you were responding to.

Fine, let's discuss the graph from FT then.

Aimless, there are weeks of misinformation and conspiracy being posted here gullibly from Xitter for weeks, and the takes here further distort the truth.

Why don't you take a primer in recognizing and counteracting misinformation instead of thread policing one of ILX's few women immediately after I just mentioned the #metoo unless you are Jew protests about the 10/7 sexual assaults that were all over the news this week.

"Fine, let's discuss the graph from FT then."

Happy with that take from JS, hence posting it. It's hardly conspiracist.

The war has been going on for two months. Numerous ilxors have discussed their deep upset and fear about the war itself, their relationship to Israel and numerous other topics. I’ve seen people in these threads show patience and kindness to and actually try to discuss stuff with others like adults, if you don’t feel that’s something you can do, Aimless, find a way to block felicity, or stop posting itt. We can do without your “contributions”. It’s pretty easy to see when someone is posting from a place of upset and not goad them like a spiteful pos.

Yes, it's a take you are happy with. But people have complained about you doing this before. Post what you want, but don't expect people to go wading through the cesspool of Xitter to rely on or trust your sources.

The other day you were posting the MIT graduate advisor who was spreading anti-Zionist conspiracy theories, in response to the hearing if it was unreasonable that an American student would not want to be advised by him. And his citation to the video did not support the claims in the tweet you reposrted. But his thread was full of the "Z word" in the way you agreed not to use. He posted "Is Zionism a mental illness?" This is a graduate student and faculty advisor in neuroscience at MIT.

So yes, when you post tweets from people like that approvingly and without comment you are very much spreading conspiracy.

xp thank you gyac

Here is a basic article on recognizing misinformation.

https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/segments/breaking-news-consumers-handbook-israel-and-gaza-edition-on-the-media

There's nothing wrong with your posts, xyzzz

table is the one who posted

Still, completely absurd that this is happening at all IMHO. Just goes to show that Islamic students don’t matter to politicians or on college campuses.

― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Tuesday, December 5, 2023 11:27 AM bookmarkflaglink

in reference to the House hearing on antisemitisim and then said I missed the heart of his post.

Again, there's nothing wrong with anything I posted, or anything that you have posted, xyzzz.

"The other day you were posting the MIT graduate advisor who was spreading anti-Zionist conspiracy theories"

He hasn't been sacked by MIT. Besides all that the tweet is very clear in terms of the point made and the double standard he was arguing about, which is what I wanted to put across.

So I've got no problem with that either.

I think it's debatable whether "Israeli officials" did this, but there is this:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/20/the-gaza-diplomacy-of-biden-sunak-and-co-seems-to-be-heading-for-failure

Blinken’s bigger US goal to establish safe zones in Gaza’s war zone was never easy, and may ultimately prove a mirage. Tzipi Hotovely, the Israeli ambassador to the UK, pointed to the bombing of Dresden in the second world war, as she insisted civilian casualties were inevitable in wars.

I'm not sure if that's a reference to this interview in particular or further comments made elsewhere: https://www.mediaite.com/uk/israeli-official-evokes-dresden/

Which is also what my earlier post was about, which felicity declined to actually address in any kind of way, instead opting to smear me by saying that I don't care about antisemitism. This was my post:

Except only one seems to be a real priority on campuses at the moment?

I think that one of the reasons I am so frustrated with current conversations about college campus environments is that there is an execrable rise in hatred toward both Jewish students and Muslim students, but the institutions seem to be really addressing only the former while presuming that the latter is just business-as-usual.

This is to say: the amount of latent, even blatant, antisemitism on college campuses before 10/7 was awful and real, and so was the amount of Islamophobia. I have taught students who told me that they didn’t wear their hijab because of Islamophobic harassment, and that’s in a city like Philly with a huge (and racialized) Muslim population.

I guess this is all to say that I really want people to feel safe, yet I become really frustrated when it feels like one group’s safety is privileged over another’s, in an almost exact mirror image of how things are playing out in the larger conflict.

― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Tuesday, December 5, 2023 6:40 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

rob, a recent report from CNN has intimated that Israeli officials initially wanted to "flatten" Gaza, and had to be walked back by US officials. That said, it seems like they're getting their wish.

oh I don't need convincing about the derangement of Israel's military campaign; the numbers speak for themselves while also being incomprehensible. 1 out of 150 Gazan children have been killed according to an otherwise typically iffy Kristof column in today's nyt, and the current evacuation & bombing policy in the south (widely reported in lots of mainstream media) is astonishingly cruel. The 10/7 attack was also abhorrent if I need to make my perspective on that clear.

Anyway, I am sorry to pile on felicity, but I was wary of the misinformation characterization when the specific Dresden comparison rang a bell with things I'd seen earlier. Obviously other tweets posted in the past may have been misinfo--I'm not sure what the MIT discussion refers to.

It’s interesting to read the NYT and see a particular trend emerging: a multimedia story today about “life for people trapped in Gaza”, with reference links to three other stories that also claim people as being “trapped” there. Prepping readers for a feeling of relief when surviving Gazans are inevitably permanently evacuated: this wasn’t their home, it was a trap they were caught in

"But his thread was full of the "Z word" in the way you agreed not to use. He posted "Is Zionism a mental illness"

Zionism is far too much in the discourse, there have been things posted by other posters that use the word and discuss Zionism, so it can't be entirely avoided.

The point I took from our discussion wasn't to use the Z word in an aggressive manner myself, but ofc I will bring in other perspectives where needed. I want to see Palestinian voices on here.

Otherwise I do some checking of what I post (like I know who James Schneider is in UK politics) but in the end I am often posting a take, discourse for people to talk about if they wish. It's a take I am often agreeing with but it's fine if it's not perfect or sourced. Like, I know this.

felicity declined to actually address in any kind of way

First of all, I am not obligated to focus on what you deem important. You're not a tyrant.

instead opting to smear me by saying that I don't care about antisemitism.

You'd better quote paste where I did that.

What you may have been taking personally is saying that there is something wrong with people who do not identify as either who constantly feel the need to play Muslim students in the US against Jewish students in the US. Maybe this is you.

in an almost exact mirror image of how things are playing out in the larger conflict.

Do you understand that you are dragging Muslim students and Jewish students studying in US universities, who have nothing to do with foreign policy, into a discussion about "the larger conflict" and it's extremely offensive. Please stop playing with groups of people in your mind in this way.

As for your student who feels intimidated to wear hijab, that is terrible and I hope you exercised your obligation as faculty to report it and do what you can to make the school a safe place for her. If more teachers would do that instead of posting hate online maybe we wouldnt be here.

xyzzzz, as you know I like you and am not trying to stifle you. Just take care with who you spread if you can.

i won’t be interacting with you or your bad-faith arguments on this site any longer.

Though ultimately I will keep posting as I am I would just add that I am only explaining this at length because I like you too Felicity.

Take care.

And table - thanks!