Israel/Palestine post 10/7 - follow-on events/thoughts as relate to other countries

felicity, and this is the last time i will say anything to you: i don’t care what you think about me or anything else. your politics are abhorrent and cape for genocidaires despite your consistent protests to the contrary, and i have nothing else to say to you.

Maybe they are trying to compensate for actually calling NeoNazis “fine people”?

- why is unperson, who posted that he doesn’t give a fuck about colonialism, pretending to be some kind of moral authorityof?
- why does unperson persist in posting itt and not returning to his level of complaining about punk bands clothes on magazine covers?

Why would I ever need to? That's a serious question.

Because then you wouldn't have to post that you "wonder" about me. It's creepy.

your politics are abhorrent and cape for genocidaires despite your consistent protests to the contrary, and i have nothing else to say to you.

― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Thursday, December 7, 2023 3:16 PM bookmarkflaglink

table, you don't know me, you don't know my politics. You are upset that people don't agree with you. I am not the only one.

You have a visceral reaction to certain topics. I said it's fine that you do, but you continue to spread claims about me that you cannot back up. Why don't you paste where I "cape for" genocidaires. You can't. Please engage with my posts, but please stop misquoting me.

Unperson may be an unserious person at times, I dunno, you are all sock puppets to me aside from Sarah who I actually know IRL. But unperson poses legit questions there I think.

I’m not going to watch hours of Stefanik unless someone pays me.

Because then you wouldn't have to post that you "wonder" about me. It's creepy.

That's a rhetorical dodge. Why do you think it's important that everyone posting in this thread watch a bunch of Republican House members browbeat college administrators? What knowledge would we gain? Or is it just because you watched it and now you want everyone else to suffer as you have suffered?

The only important questions related to a Congressional hearing on "Holding Campus Leaders Accountable and Confronting Anti-Semitism" are:

- why is this the business of the United States House of Representatives?
- what does "Holding [x] Accountable" mean, in practical terms? what is the enforcement mechanism?
- why is anti-Semitism, as defined by the Trump-era Republican Party, the only example of bigotry on campus that requires a hearing in December 2023?

― Tahuti Watches L&O:SVU Reruns Without His Ape (unperson), Thursday, December 7, 2023 3:14 PM bookmarkflaglink

I answered some of these questions. It's part of a Title VI inquiry. Here is a link:

https://www.justice.gov/crt/fcs/T6manual5

What else are you trying to understand?

Like a lot of hostile environments that create conditions for harassment and discrimination, a lot depends on it being plausibly deniable. It is not a left or right issue. Why are you trying to making it one?

It's very telling that you consider yourself in a position to declare what are and aren't "the important questions."

It reminds me a bit of the Bret Kavanaugh confirmation hearings. I watched it to see how disgusting it was to see a white man throw a tantrum over being denied his white male privilege. He got confirmed. Does that make me a Republican? I don't think so.

Why do you think it's important that everyone posting in this thread watch a bunch of Republican House members browbeat college administrators? What knowledge would we gain? Or is it just because you watched it and now you want everyone else to suffer as you have suffered?

― Tahuti Watches L&O:SVU Reruns Without His Ape (unperson), Thursday, December 7, 2023 3:29 PM bookmarkflaglink

Why don't you ask Keyes, who first posted about the hearing? He opened the door to this topic.

I think it's important to watch original sources to the extent accounts of the hearing are somewhat distorted and misquoted.

Change the topic if you can't stand it.

What else is part of this inquiry? Where is the full current inquiry documented? I’m simply curious because no media is mentioning this as part of a wider thing which is not to say it isn’t.

Change the topic if you can't stand it.

OK. Is people using the word "intifada" in a chant on a college campus more or less "genocidal" than Israel deliberately destroying the Gazan archives, the Palestinian Legislative Council, and the historical records there?

The head of Gaza municipality said Wednesday that Israel destroyed the “Central Archives” which contained thousands of historical documents dating more than 150 years.

“Targeting the Central Archives poses a great danger to the city, as it contains thousands of historically valuable documents for the community,” Yahya Al-Sarraj told Anadolu.

He pointed out that “these documents … represent an integral part of our history and culture.”

“The Central Archives contains plans for ancient buildings of historical value and documents in the handwriting of well-known national figures,” he said.

“These documents, dating back a long time, were burned, turning them into ashes, erasing a large part of our Palestinian memory,” he noted.

Al-Sarraj said: “The occupation targeted many buildings, including large and monumental cultural centers, as well as public parks belonging to the municipality.”

“Targeting included the Rashad al-Shawwa Historical Cultural Center, a very important center that includes a theater and a central library, which was targeted without any justification.

“The Israeli occupation also targeted the Palestinian Legislative Council and the memorial monument in the Memorial Park for the (Al-Jundi Al-Majhool) Unknown Soldier,” he said.

Al-Sarraj said “the attempt by the occupation to destroy everything beautiful, to erase Palestinian memory, and to impose a policy of obscuring the people, making Palestinian cities uninhabitable.”

As part of the targeting of the Palestinian people and everything related to their values, heritage, culture and identity, Israel targeted memorials in several governorates since the start of its war early last month, including the Memorial of the Martyrs of the Marmara Ship in Gaza Port, the memorial of late journalist Shireen Abu Akleh in the Jenin Refugee Camp and the memorial of late President Yasser Arafat in Tulkarm, in the West Bank.​​​​​​​

The main library in the Gaza Strip also did not escape the Israeli war machine, which bombed it during raids that targeted Gaza City since the outbreak of the war on Oct. 7.

The library, known as the Public Offices Building, is the largest in the Strip, containing historical documents and books.

According to statements made Tuesday by the spokesperson for the Gaza City municipality, Hosni Muhanna, residents of the city consider it the memory of the country and its present.

Ok here is a report on the full Title VI inquiry, which indicates there are 5 reports of antisemitism and 2 of islamaphobia and that hearing was part of this. Took some digging to bring this up.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/11/17/us-department-education-antisemitism-schools-list/

Looking forward to the hearing on islamaphobia that should be part of this.

“Why don't you ask Keyes, who first posted about the hearing? He opened the door to this topic.”

Ok guys, basically if you don’t all watch this hearing I’m not sure you’re going to get an A in this thread.

unperson, so... Jewish students studying on US college campuses are responsible for the actions of Israel's army ... how?

OK. Is people using the word "intifada" in a chant on a college campus more or less "genocidal" than Israel deliberately destroying the Gazan archives, the Palestinian Legislative Council, and the historical records there?

Ok guys, basically if you don’t all watch this hearing I’m not sure you’re going to get an A in this thread.

― Beyond Goo and Evol (President Keyes), Thursday, December 7, 2023 3:51 PM bookmarkflaglink

I know there is nothing Keyes finds funnier than people trying to take antisemitism seriously.

thanks for exposing yourself.

We see what's up.

We’re in the post for discussing the impact of the war outside Israel, Gaza and the West Bank. There’s a whole thread to discuss the actions of Israel in destroying Palestinian civil society.

You're right. That post doesn't belong in this thread. I withdraw. Five points for you.

I literally turned that hearing on and the first thing I heard was a bunch of Professors being named and then someone teaching a class on Resistance Literature from Pre-Islamic Arabia called a member of a terrorist organization.

However

The name of that teacher was not used. So I’m sorry for spreading misinformation in my usual brainless fashion.

Thanks, make sure you stay gone, the thread manages to be semi decent with fewer disingenuous pricks cluttering it up. I’m not sure any of us want to know the answer why American Jews should answer for the crimes of the IDF though?

This is not about being funny Felicity. I mentioned the hearing yesterday but you keep bringing my name up today as I guess the example of someone who brainlessly posts rumors. Please stop.

The name of that teacher was not used. So I’m sorry for spreading misinformation in my usual brainless fashion.

― Beyond Goo and Evol (President Keyes), Thursday, December 7, 2023 3:56 PM bookmarkflaglink

Oh your apology is accepted. And I'm sorry I called Aimless "thread police." Hate when people do that.

unperson, so... Jewish students studying on US college campuses are responsible for the actions of Israel's army ... how?

is anyone saying that they are? who is targeting any jewish students explicitly? are jewish students explicitly targeted when pro-palestinian activists march on campus and say the word 'intifada'? is that an explicitly targeted threat?

Did you read the post upthread where man alive said how he perceived that phrase

I did read it, and I believe him when he says that, however, I do not think it would stand up to legal scrutiny.

people who say "i don't want to work with that person because they are jewish" are explicitly being discriminatory and bigoted. but a demonstration against the actions of a foreign state is not an explicit act of discrimination against american jews unless they are engaging directly with jewish students, assaulting them, cutting them out of student organizations, etc. I really fail to see how that argument can be made in the US when we have the first amendment.

It's definitely covered in the hearing. But I understand you will not watch it unless you are paid, even if it contains the answer to your questions.

I am unemployed and need all the money I can get.

This is not about being funny Felicity. I mentioned the hearing yesterday but you keep bringing my name up today as I guess the example of someone who brainlessly posts rumors. Please stop.

― Beyond Goo and Evol (President Keyes), Thursday, December 7, 2023 3:58 PM bookmarkflaglink

I will stop, sorry. And I do actually really enjoy your posts and find them funny. So I will keep that in mind in the future.

Thanks

By the way, it looks like Magill may lose her job over that hearing

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/07/business/penn-emergency-meeting-liz-magill/index.html

people who say "i don't want to work with that person because they are jewish" are explicitly being discriminatory and bigoted. but a demonstration against the actions of a foreign state is not an explicit act of discrimination against american jews unless they are engaging directly with jewish students, assaulting them, cutting them out of student organizations, etc. I really fail to see how that argument can be made in the US when we have the first amendment.

Are right wing assholes politicizing it to get back at the “liberal elites”? I would hope no one thinks they sincerely care about this other than as a means to get revenge and/or get campaign contributions.

akm, in answer to your questions about how legitimate Pro-Palestinian campus protest can be a hostile environment or discriminatory or harassment, legally you should keep in mind that the thresholds are different when the person is in a supervisory position in relation to the person affected rather than a peer. So even if you think these issues have been litigated before, I do think this presents some sadly novel issues of a type we have not previously encountered.

So this is highly fact-dependent, but for example, in a Title VII discrimination case, there is probably less tolerance for offensive speech when your boss tells demeaning racist or sexist jokes to you, than an environment where peers tell such jokes. The boss exerts power and authority over the conditions of your work, where the peers don't, even if speech coming from both types of actors can create an atmosphere so pervasive that it's considered hostile.

In the testimony that Keyes mentioned, it was faculty at Penn that were called out by name for visibly clapping at an October 8, 2023 rally calling to send Jews "Go back to Moscow, Brooklyn, ____ing Berlin where you came from."

So this is an example of 2 people having different perspectives on a shared reality. Keyes saw that and reacted to the idea that a Congressperson was calling for those faculty to be fired. I saw that, and reacted to the idea that a Jewish student seeing professors clap for "Go back to Moscow, Brooklyn, ___ Berlin, where you came from" the day after October 7 would reasonably make such a student feel threatened, because it's faculty. And faculty exercise power and authority over students in the form of giving grades and writing recommendations, and are in charge of campus atmosphere.

And it's not that I insist on people watching the hearing. I gave that an an example of how 2 people can watch the same clip and come away with different accounts.

And by the way, all of the speech is permitted by the First Amendment. I think people are struggling with where that conflicts with campus duty. I agree with a lot of what Ken White (Popehat) writes, but not all of it. He is a white man who does white collar defense. I am not. We are not going to have the exact same ideas. We can discuss that, but to me the defining lens is the Civil Rights Act of 1964, not the First Amendment.

The line between "hate speech" and "not hate speech" isn't always obvious, and things can be in both categories at once? Two months ago I wouldn't have thought anything about the terms from the river to the sea or intifada, now I do.

I also think the line between "anti-semitic" and "not anti-semitic" isn't necessarily all that clear either, but I can't quite say why. I feel like there are people for who this isn't true, but could become true. I see signs with the Israel flag being put in a trashcan and it strikes me, do we see that with the Russia flag? I suppose maybe we see memes or it being broken into smaller states with its republics becoming independent, or reduced in size, but they dont seem to be meant seriously.. Is there also a line between "Israel should stop occupying Gaza and WB" and "Israel should stop existing" which doesnt exist with Russia, where its more clearly "Russia should stop invading Ukraine"

Thats quite a muddled post, I'm not particularly clear on this in my head so its partly thinking aloud

hate speech is legally protected speech in the US, I'm sad to say

thanks felicity that was a good explanation about the specifics of that particular case

You're welcome.

There is no formulaic answer which is why I was generally sympathetic to uiversity presidents stumbling in trying to give linear answers to questions that have no straightforward yes/no answer, especially in the abstract way they were posed.

I just listened to the first hour (of three and a half) of the Congressional hearing— was listening while dog-walking, so couldn’t clock the sources of all the queries

There is some discussion about a (future) congressional hearing to combat Islamophobia. There is a lot of conflation of criticism of the state of Israel with broader anti-Semitism; right away the speaker requested that all three uni presidents assert that “the Jewish state of Israel has a right to exist”. Two congresspeople weren’t interested in discussing anti-Semitism at all; one was asking the presidents “what percentage of your faculty would you say holds Conservative beliefs?” none of the presidents claimed to have that data.

Mr. Grothman’s line of query was pretty bizarre— asking the Harvard president as to why it was that polls of the Harvard student body and faculty expressed on two separate occasions a 2%, and then 1%, level of support of President Trump, suggesting this was indicative of a lack of ideological diversity on the campus. He brought up two H professors who were terminated on the basis of them having “problematic beliefs”; he didn’t state the cause of the first, but the second was asserting sexual essentialism.

All in all, listening to this hearing felt like a waste of my time. This line of inquiry does not seem to be conducted in good faith in any capacity, it felt frustrating to hear so much conflation of criticism of a murderous nation-state with hate speech. One congressperson desired disciplining faculty members who ascribed to BDS philosophy.

Correct me if I am wrong but at the top of this thread I thought you said you are one of the people who gets upset when antisemitism in North America is discussed when there is war in Gaza.

So has that changed or ... it's a waste of time? What is your point?

If you are going to say some of the hearing was not conducted in good faith, nobody including me is disputing that.

fgti, don't get sucked into the toxic tunnel line of questioning.

This isn't directed to either of you particularly but maybe ... if you are fine with people discussing movies, books, food, whatever, but the minute people in North America want to discuss antisemitism as it affects them, alarm bells go off and you can "no longer remain silent" then you are the one who might have an issue?

Oh, I am very invested in eliminating anti-Semitism in all its forms, starting with— most importantly— the dismantling of the racist right-wing Israeli state that has a. directly funded the terrorist organization Hamas, b. allowed the October 7 attacks to happen (both through funding and ignoring all warnings of its imminence), and reportedly massively increased the number of Israeli dead through IDF’s blind military response, c. plunged the region into a war that endangers Jewish bodies both in the region and foments global anti-Semitism by conflating its nihilistic and not-at-all-Jewish values with Judaism, d. continuing an illegal occupation, arming its civilian population, endangering its citizens, deprioritizing poorer Jewish immigrants to Israel by housing them in regions of greater conflict, and so on and so on. And this isn’t even to mention what’s happening to Palestinians. This is the anti-Semitism that I oppose, but my opinions— including my resolute support of BDS— are being themselves painted in certain corners as being anti-Semitic, and have led to people in professional positions being terminated, and have led to the many Jewish people who share these views as being described as “non Jews” or as treasonous, and so on. My priority is Jewish lives, it’s Palestinian lives, it’s the safety of all these peoples; discussions about whether or not this phrase or that which was uttered and applauded at a rally, which professor was present and was applauding it, whether or not it constitutes a fireable offense, when all that people are protesting is “the abomination that has been transpiring in Gaza these past 60+ days”.

I find it much, much easier to talk about the conflict with my hawkish Israeli friend, because he doesn’t obfuscate or make any secret of his desires: for Gaza to be annexed, for the West Bank to be settled. I make no secret of my own: for Israel and Palestine to confederate and become a secular democracy. What are your desires, felicity?

thanks for that, fgti.

Not to have me or my mother or family being forced to state a position on issues you dictate just because we are Jewish.

That goes in the other thread.

My mother who is Korean converted to Judaism in the 1960s. Do you want me to bother her for her views?

Shall I explain to her how "Zionism" is a racist project? What would you like me to ask her?