Israel/Palestine post 10/7 - follow-on events/thoughts as relate to other countries

really good post

Aimless, I got around to responding to your extremely condescending post.

Sorry, James Schneider is "Israel"?

uh, James Schneider was not in any way trying to identify himself as "Israel". Nor did he attribute the argument to "Israel" as a whole, but to "Israeli authorities", unspecified, but the implication is the people with some sort of governmental authority. Both of those are quite clear if you take a moment to read it slowly.

― more difficult than I look (Aimless), Thursday, December 7, 2023 10:08 AM bookmarkflaglink

I did take a moment to read it slowly.

Here was the James Schneider post:

James Schneider
@schneiderhome
Israeli officials justify bombing Gaza by recalling the Allied bombing of Dresden.

2 problems with that argument:
1 The Geneva Convention was brought in after WW2 to prevent such mass killings of civilians.
2 The destruction in Gaza is already comparable after just 2 months.

8:12 AM · Dec 7, 2023
·
39.7K
Views

According to the FT article cited by xyzzzz, it was Robert Pape, an American military analyst, who compares Gaza to Dresden. Not an Israeli official.

Credit to the graph as pasted into the James Schneider post was cropped out. Credit was "Sources: FT research; damage analysis Copernicus Sentinel-1 satellite data by Corey Sher of CUNY graduate center and Jamon van den Hoek of Oregon State University (c) FT."

Just FYI - when you see screenshots or PDFs with no link or the credits cropped out check for misinformation.

Maybe there is an undisclosed source that is not in the post. But the FT cite does not support the assertion.

Here is a more accurate report based on the FT story as a contrast:

https://www.newarab.com/news/israels-war-gaza-compared-wwii-bombing-germany

There is plenty to criticize and be appalled at. And if there is a source where Israel officials do discuss Dresden, feel free to post it. It just didn't seem that James Schneider had such a source in this Tweet.

Ah, I see rob has posted elsewhere where an Israel official invokes Dresden.

https://www.mediaite.com/uk/israeli-official-evokes-dresden/

For the record, I saw a LOT of Israeli goverment and IDF spokespeople invoking Dresden in TV interviews in the early stages of the bombing campaign but they seemed to have stopped, probably because they realized how stupid it was.

yes I recall that now too.

Just FYI I am utterly uninterested in doing any checking for sources beyond some light checking on who us writing the tweet. It's just besides the point for that tweet which is Schneider's opinion on that graph and doesn't change what he is commenting on, which is Israel's invoking of Dresden.

Similarly with "From the River to the Sea". I've no problems with that chant and will chant that at the demos I will attend. By and large the people trying to delegitimise the slogan are trying to police the peaceful demonstrations. Checking of sources is utterly banal when a lot of those people don't care for the demos.

People can be interested in different things.

I think a lot of my interest in fact checking comes from what I do for work. But also from the rampant misinformation that is spread around this conflict.

And I hope that you understand that your interest in things comes from a different place than US college students directly affected. Nobody is spraying swastiskas on your building or posting death threats on University discussion boards making very concrete threats to kill all the people of your ethnicity in your dining hall, as far as I know.

And I don't disregard those attacks by my lack of comment. My only 'comment' was to bring in the Palestinian student talking about a double standard he saw taking place at that hearing. I know anti semitic attacks are taking place in the US and Europe from reports...posted via twitter.

The Schneider tweet or chants of "From the River to the Sea" at demos throughout the world don't have anything to do with that. There are other things they plug into.

This is why I don't think "from the river to the sea" clearly or exclusively exists in "bad" or "not bad", or that the line between the two is always clear.

in the Palestinian student talking about a double standard he saw taking place at that hearing.

Sorry, can you perhaps explain how it is a "double standard" he is talking about?

He seems to be complaining that the graduate student Talia Khan complained about statements he made such as:

"Jewish Israelis want to enslave the world in a global apartheid system"

spreading conspiracy theories that Israel is currently harvesting Palestinian organs

As a neuroscientist, asking if "Zionism to be a mental illness?" and refers to "the Zionist mind"

Those seem like very inappropriate theories for a Neuroscience Post-doc to espouse and not at all related to the topic of making campuses safe for Palestinian students under Title VI. How is it a double standard?

For everyone's benefit the full text of the tweet I posted is below. In the wrong thread, sorry

The substance of his tweet is that Palestinians such as himself have been hounded on campus, and he doesn't feel his voice would ever be heard by the establishment that is sending bombs to Israel; the political establishment that is carrying out the destruction of his people. While knowing everything he has said about Zionism and organ harvest, that substance is what I wanted to bring here.

Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

If Palestinian students are being hounded on campus (and not in the sense that they are getting academic complaints for their anti"Zionist" pseudoscientific conspiracy claims) that would be a double standard.

Based on the video in that tweet, that didnt seem at all the same magnitude of hounding that was discussed at the hearing. I can believe he is getting death threats from those tweets. I just don't know if that falls within Title VI's requirement of schools to prevent.

To clarify it would be a double standard if there were an obligation to make campus safe for students of Jewish or Israeli origin and not for Palestinian origin. But Title VI's goal is to make it safe for all.

I suppose the double standard is he's not getting equal tv time. But he is being a little disingenous I think.

Oh, "magnitudes of hounding" must be proved now. How will Palestinian students prove this if they are not invited to a meeting in Capital City? And if they are, will they be heard?

So right now what we have is that tweet.

And stories of Palestinian students being shot at.

Utterly uninterested in carrying on this conversation.

There are Title VI investigations for Islamophobia on campus and upcoming hearings on that specifically that were discussed.

I am saying that particular guy that you chose seemed to not be showing that and also seems to be spreading conspiracy theories that would draw complaints.

Not the same as saying increases in campus islamaphobia isn't a problem or doesn't exist. In fact it was discussed at the hearing, which I already mentioned in previous posts. And it's terrible that Palestinian students were shot near the University of Vermont! Just like you don't mention everything I don't mention everything.

Can't wait to have a weighing of the hounding and see who wins that race! Good stuff.

Again, you seem to be having this reaction to one-up or find a double standard in something I have consistently said applies equally to Jewish and Muslim students in the US.

The suspect in the Vermont shooting is not a student and not Jewish:

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/26/three-palestinian-students-shot-near-the-university-of-vermont.html

Why are you insisting on making this a competition?

Are Palestinian students going to be invited to these hearings or not?

Very nice to see increases in Islamophobia being discussed by people authorising weapons that are killing Palestinians.

Talia Khan, who already spoke, is of Afghan Muslim as well as Jewish descent.

I really don't know. I haven't personally experienced anti-Palestinian sentiment in the US.

Sorry I cannot help you there.

Look forward to further reports from Palestinians and Muslims at these hearings.

That will help.

Very nice to see increases in Islamophobia being discussed by people authorising weapons that are killing Palestinians.

― xyzzzz__, Friday, December 8, 2023 3:05 AM bookmarkflaglink

Are you somehow tying this to discussions of whether students on US campuses should be harassed or discriminated against?

Do you do this with any other protected groups?

sorry, I just find that being pitted against each other is a completely foreign experience.

I lived my whole life with friends that are Muslim, Pakistani, Egyptian, Iranian in the US. I literally had no idea we were supposed to be natural enemies until people from ILX started acting like you are right now.

What I am getting from this discussion is: who is in the room and who isn't in the room. Who is getting a hearing and who isn't. Who is asking the questions.

I look forward to hearing about all aggrieved groups getting a hearing. And maybe other people asking the questions.

Well I'm certainly not going to suggest you watch the hearing for yourself or anything.

fgti's post up above of the first hour sure sounds gruelling enough.

Eh I don't think it's tour cup of tea

At least they had no Margaret Thatcher fanboys. How depressing.

Always up for a bit of discussion on the effects of Islamophobia with conservatives in the room. I have some patience even if I am not displaying much of that in my posts.

Yeah it's always pleasant being used as a political football for leftists to scream at.

I wonder if the UK context applies here: a lot of the conservatives “concerned” about antisemitism in the UK are people who have specifically leveraged Islamophobia for electoral advantage.

I use the phrase “concerned” because many of these politicians have leveraged antisemitism for their own use, in novels they’ve written or to dogwhistle to the far right, when it suits them.

To me, it is useful to separate the actions of these people, who are clearly not operating in good faith, to the perceptions of individual Jewish students, because the latter group don’t have a choice about whether to be upset or affected by stuff like swastikas being sprayed in spaces they live and work in. Friends of mine who are pretty left wing have told me that they are upset by seeing grifters promoted by well meaning people who aren’t very discerning about the sources they promote if they are on message or discussing events that happen in Gaza.

The people responsible for the destruction aren’t ordinary Jewish people. To make these people feel fearful and that they are not safe living in the US/UK has been discussed as a goal of the Israeli far right, and I don’t see why telling Jewish people they are making too much noise about antisemitism is not playing into that long term goal in the end.

Islamophobia as both xyzzzz__ and felicity know is an issue I have personal investment in, and I have discussed this with them both, and know they care about it. However regarding other posters, I just want to say, in passing, that it’s nice to see so many of you find your voices about this societal poison. It certainly wasn’t evident previously.

Another factor is there are far more Muslims in the UK. proportionally, than in the US. I just don't get the impression Islamphobia is on the radar to the same extent in the US.

I don’t know if that’s true, especially after 9/11. Trump leveraged it!

I'm not saying it doesn't exist I don't think people are on the look out for it or are as aware of it.

I've seen stuff on US TV and films that you are very unlikely to see in the UK.

I don't know. I grew up thinking the US was a melting pot as opposed to, say, Canada which I've heard described recently more as a mosaic of different cultures. I find it sad to hear that students are sorting themselves into racially segregated dorms at MIT these days because I felt that having a diverse college experience was very enriching.

As far as experiences living while Jewish in the UK versus in the US they were not at all comparable. It is infinitely more comfortable being Jewish in the US.

Islamophobia wasn't something I remember hearing about before 9/11. Trump's executive orders re: immigration restrictions for Muslim countries were outrageous. I couldn't understand what that was about in 2017. It never occurred to me to relate it in any way to being Jewish or to Israel. The fact that Trump is talking to Republican Jewish fundraising groups about bringing such immigration bans back is quite sickening for me on many levels.

Antisemitism as I have experienced it has always been completely independent of Islamophobia. So that is why I am always surprised and puzzled by people opposing the two.

In case of confusion the US strikes me as being far more Islamophobic than the UK, which is bad enough, but it doesn't appear to be considered an important issue. Or an issue at all.

Antisemitism as I have experienced it has always been completely independent of Islamophobia. So that is why I am always surprised and puzzled by people opposing the two.

Respectfully, I really don't care to go down the road of you adding "but" to my own experience as a Jewish person in America that I just described to you. You're not Jewish and you don't seem to understand how it sounds like you are arguing my own life back to you, the expert on antisemitism.

Sorry but I'm afraid that is how I feel.

Maybe the difference is that for a lot of Islamophobic people in the US, they can't tell you the first thing about muslim people or exactly where they are from. They are brownish people from "over there." Occasionally you'll hear about a Sikh person being attacked for being muslim when people are stirred up. When I was a kid, one of my friend's fathers referred to any of "those people" as being "sand n*****s."

I don't know if I'm exactly saying that UK racial hatred is more intelligent, but the US version is pretty blunt and dumb. And yeah, they might not like Jewish people but they prefer them to any version of brown.

I’m not doing that. I’m explaining why the two have been forced together and why people discuss both. It’s extremely important in the European context when you have people who were denying the Holocaust running for office and talking about how much they love Israel.

I’m not sure why I would try to explain a Jewish person’s experience of antisemitism to them, nor that I have ever posited myself as an expert. I have only said before and will always admit to my ignorance on the subject and that I did a lot of talking to/listening to Jewish friends and reading about the subject. The part of your post I quoted was not to say, “you are wrong,” It was an attempt to explain the origin of this because it has been an extant factor in Europe for a long time in my lifetime now.

"to an extent this is true, but"?

Why not, "thanks for sharing, that is different. And here's what I thought..."

Seriously, can you imagine me doing the same to you?

"Irish in England are like what you just said, to some extent that is true but ..."??

The situation is complicated further in the UK by the whole Corbyn business. Many people on the Left will say that antisemitism was weaponized to destroy Corbyn - by largely the same people who are 100% (or claim to be) supportive of Israel's current policies. Uncomfortably though, the Jewish people I knew, who were not right wingers by the way, all considered Corbyn an antisemite and used the "Who are you to tell me what antisemitism is or isn't?" line of argument.

It seems like all posts in this thread must go through a single user, and if that single user disagrees with you, then you are very bad and the implication is clear from there.

Yeah it's a mess.

Still, can you imagine arguing any other person's lived experience with "that's true to some extent, but..."

Like, this isn't a hard thing to ask people to do, is it? Just accept what I experienced.

My point was about the two being artificially intertwined. Like yes obviously they are discrete forms of oppression but there has been a real effort to play the two groups off against each other. I didn’t do that to discredit any part of your experience (how could I?), I did that in hope of writing about how this works in contemporary Europe today.

The situation is complicated further in the UK by the whole Corbyn business.

Yes I can see that. gyac is the one who explained that to me actually.

. I didn’t do that to discredit any part of your experience (how could I?), I did that in hope of writing about how this works in contemporary Europe today.

― mojo dojo casas house (gyac), Friday, December 8, 2023 5:14 AM bookmarkflaglink

Ok you can write about that. I just don't care for the "but" because it makes it seem like you're not open to listening and only to explaining. If that makes sense to you.

It seems like all posts in this thread must go through a single user, and if that single user disagrees with you, then you are very bad and the implication is clear from there.

― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Friday, 8 December 2023 bookmarkflaglink

Table, seriously can you just post on the things you are focusing on and just leave it with this elevation of Felicity as some kind of filter or judge on what's being posted? She has asked me where I'm coming from with some of what I'm posting. I've answered the best I could. It's hardly ended in a great place but that's where it's ended.

Others have queried back at what she has posted too.

Indeed. Not sure how he squares the (repeated) “I’m not interacting with you!!!!” with leaping to agree with people who disagree with felicity and repeatedly commenting about her behaviour via passive aggressive posts of the type quoted by xyzzzz__. As I said to aimless, find a way to killfile.