Israel/Palestine post 10/7 - follow-on events/thoughts as relate to other countries

fgti's post up above of the first hour sure sounds gruelling enough.

Eh I don't think it's tour cup of tea

At least they had no Margaret Thatcher fanboys. How depressing.

Always up for a bit of discussion on the effects of Islamophobia with conservatives in the room. I have some patience even if I am not displaying much of that in my posts.

Yeah it's always pleasant being used as a political football for leftists to scream at.

I wonder if the UK context applies here: a lot of the conservatives “concerned” about antisemitism in the UK are people who have specifically leveraged Islamophobia for electoral advantage.

I use the phrase “concerned” because many of these politicians have leveraged antisemitism for their own use, in novels they’ve written or to dogwhistle to the far right, when it suits them.

To me, it is useful to separate the actions of these people, who are clearly not operating in good faith, to the perceptions of individual Jewish students, because the latter group don’t have a choice about whether to be upset or affected by stuff like swastikas being sprayed in spaces they live and work in. Friends of mine who are pretty left wing have told me that they are upset by seeing grifters promoted by well meaning people who aren’t very discerning about the sources they promote if they are on message or discussing events that happen in Gaza.

The people responsible for the destruction aren’t ordinary Jewish people. To make these people feel fearful and that they are not safe living in the US/UK has been discussed as a goal of the Israeli far right, and I don’t see why telling Jewish people they are making too much noise about antisemitism is not playing into that long term goal in the end.

Islamophobia as both xyzzzz__ and felicity know is an issue I have personal investment in, and I have discussed this with them both, and know they care about it. However regarding other posters, I just want to say, in passing, that it’s nice to see so many of you find your voices about this societal poison. It certainly wasn’t evident previously.

Another factor is there are far more Muslims in the UK. proportionally, than in the US. I just don't get the impression Islamphobia is on the radar to the same extent in the US.

I don’t know if that’s true, especially after 9/11. Trump leveraged it!

I'm not saying it doesn't exist I don't think people are on the look out for it or are as aware of it.

I've seen stuff on US TV and films that you are very unlikely to see in the UK.

I don't know. I grew up thinking the US was a melting pot as opposed to, say, Canada which I've heard described recently more as a mosaic of different cultures. I find it sad to hear that students are sorting themselves into racially segregated dorms at MIT these days because I felt that having a diverse college experience was very enriching.

As far as experiences living while Jewish in the UK versus in the US they were not at all comparable. It is infinitely more comfortable being Jewish in the US.

Islamophobia wasn't something I remember hearing about before 9/11. Trump's executive orders re: immigration restrictions for Muslim countries were outrageous. I couldn't understand what that was about in 2017. It never occurred to me to relate it in any way to being Jewish or to Israel. The fact that Trump is talking to Republican Jewish fundraising groups about bringing such immigration bans back is quite sickening for me on many levels.

Antisemitism as I have experienced it has always been completely independent of Islamophobia. So that is why I am always surprised and puzzled by people opposing the two.

In case of confusion the US strikes me as being far more Islamophobic than the UK, which is bad enough, but it doesn't appear to be considered an important issue. Or an issue at all.

Antisemitism as I have experienced it has always been completely independent of Islamophobia. So that is why I am always surprised and puzzled by people opposing the two.

Respectfully, I really don't care to go down the road of you adding "but" to my own experience as a Jewish person in America that I just described to you. You're not Jewish and you don't seem to understand how it sounds like you are arguing my own life back to you, the expert on antisemitism.

Sorry but I'm afraid that is how I feel.

Maybe the difference is that for a lot of Islamophobic people in the US, they can't tell you the first thing about muslim people or exactly where they are from. They are brownish people from "over there." Occasionally you'll hear about a Sikh person being attacked for being muslim when people are stirred up. When I was a kid, one of my friend's fathers referred to any of "those people" as being "sand n*****s."

I don't know if I'm exactly saying that UK racial hatred is more intelligent, but the US version is pretty blunt and dumb. And yeah, they might not like Jewish people but they prefer them to any version of brown.

I’m not doing that. I’m explaining why the two have been forced together and why people discuss both. It’s extremely important in the European context when you have people who were denying the Holocaust running for office and talking about how much they love Israel.

I’m not sure why I would try to explain a Jewish person’s experience of antisemitism to them, nor that I have ever posited myself as an expert. I have only said before and will always admit to my ignorance on the subject and that I did a lot of talking to/listening to Jewish friends and reading about the subject. The part of your post I quoted was not to say, “you are wrong,” It was an attempt to explain the origin of this because it has been an extant factor in Europe for a long time in my lifetime now.

"to an extent this is true, but"?

Why not, "thanks for sharing, that is different. And here's what I thought..."

Seriously, can you imagine me doing the same to you?

"Irish in England are like what you just said, to some extent that is true but ..."??

The situation is complicated further in the UK by the whole Corbyn business. Many people on the Left will say that antisemitism was weaponized to destroy Corbyn - by largely the same people who are 100% (or claim to be) supportive of Israel's current policies. Uncomfortably though, the Jewish people I knew, who were not right wingers by the way, all considered Corbyn an antisemite and used the "Who are you to tell me what antisemitism is or isn't?" line of argument.

It seems like all posts in this thread must go through a single user, and if that single user disagrees with you, then you are very bad and the implication is clear from there.

Yeah it's a mess.

Still, can you imagine arguing any other person's lived experience with "that's true to some extent, but..."

Like, this isn't a hard thing to ask people to do, is it? Just accept what I experienced.

My point was about the two being artificially intertwined. Like yes obviously they are discrete forms of oppression but there has been a real effort to play the two groups off against each other. I didn’t do that to discredit any part of your experience (how could I?), I did that in hope of writing about how this works in contemporary Europe today.

The situation is complicated further in the UK by the whole Corbyn business.

Yes I can see that. gyac is the one who explained that to me actually.

. I didn’t do that to discredit any part of your experience (how could I?), I did that in hope of writing about how this works in contemporary Europe today.

― mojo dojo casas house (gyac), Friday, December 8, 2023 5:14 AM bookmarkflaglink

Ok you can write about that. I just don't care for the "but" because it makes it seem like you're not open to listening and only to explaining. If that makes sense to you.

It seems like all posts in this thread must go through a single user, and if that single user disagrees with you, then you are very bad and the implication is clear from there.

― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Friday, 8 December 2023 bookmarkflaglink

Table, seriously can you just post on the things you are focusing on and just leave it with this elevation of Felicity as some kind of filter or judge on what's being posted? She has asked me where I'm coming from with some of what I'm posting. I've answered the best I could. It's hardly ended in a great place but that's where it's ended.

Others have queried back at what she has posted too.

Indeed. Not sure how he squares the (repeated) “I’m not interacting with you!!!!” with leaping to agree with people who disagree with felicity and repeatedly commenting about her behaviour via passive aggressive posts of the type quoted by xyzzzz__. As I said to aimless, find a way to killfile.

Got it, thanks for the check xyzzz.

I hate to be a substacck person but I started reading (and now I can't find it) an essay someone posted this morning, essentially saying "hey, the enemy of my enemy is not always my friend." Doubtlessly there are incidents of antisemitism happening on campuses, but the extent to which the far-right GOP is jumping on it is rather ironic considering Trump's 'good people on both sides' after Charlottesville, a very explicit antisemitic march led by the far-right. I don't recall Stefanik freaking out about that, or about Tucker Carlson's continual push of the Great Replacement Theory, all of which he pins on Soros. If I were jewish (I'm not) I'd be rather dubious of these people suddenly jumping in as if they are my great defenders in the US.

The far right are coming out in support of the Israeli government all over Europe too - including literal antisemites. They hate Muslims more than Jews.

... in support of Israel, I don't know why I qualified that. Confusing times.

exactly. doubtless there are people on the right who earnestly believe this; but Stefanik? saying 'broken clock right twice a day' is tantamount to saying "bin laden was right in his criticism of the US". yeah ok... there is no reason to give credence to a cretin of that sort, they are not operating in good faith. To utterly ignore their motives behind their support is to be gullible. Sorry, I'm native american, I was raised to deeply distrust everyone.

Stefanik has in fact invoked the Great Replacement Theory. The hearing also featured Mary Miller, who infamously said at a campaign rally: "Hitler was right on one thing. He said, 'Whoever has the youth has the future.' Our children are being propagandized." Her questions for Magill were about trans women accessing women's locker rooms (I guess under the umbrella of "Holding Campus Leaders Accountable")

yes, exactly.

Yes it's terribly cynical. It's not as if we haven't noticed. Laurence Tribe tweeted about this.

Sadly, all 3 university presidents played into Stefanik's hand. They were trying to thread a needle where they needed to show some human empathy. People I know are losing sleep over it.

they bungled their appearances and testimony, but I'm also not entirely sure what else they could have done, because, again, you cannot give a short succinct answer to some of these questions and they were being badgered to remove all nuance and context. they could have said "I'm not showing up to this farce, GTFO" i guess, but they'd have gotten shitcanned for that. I don't envy their positions.

Evangelicals love Israel in part because it’s a necessity for the Second Coming.

I know you wont watch the hearing but it did cover some other things besides the clip that went viral.

The videos of McGill and Gay that cane out the following day were also terrible though. They had all the time in the world with no one interrupting, but also seemed extremely fake.

Yes the evangelical Christian thing is weird too.

Stefanik has in fact invoked the Great Replacement Theory. The hearing also featured Mary Miller, who infamously said at a campaign rally: "Hitler was right on one thing. He said, 'Whoever has the youth has the future.' Our children are being propagandized." Her questions for Magill were about trans women accessing women's locker rooms (I guess under the umbrella of "Holding Campus Leaders Accountable")

The impression I got over the first hour was that it had a kangaroo court vibe, that the goal of the hearing was not-at-all to prevent anti-Semitism on campuses, but to impugn the reputations of three presidents of three universities with a liberal rep in the eyes of same university’s respective donor blocs… the goal was to get these women fired. Asking Prof Gay about whether or not “diversity inclusion” extends to Conservative thinkers (or more explicitly, Trump supporters) was pretty galling

Yeah it's pretty sad that fewer people are interested in the conditions on campus than the spectacle.

I didn't see the part from Mary Miller. That sounds horrifying.

I’m gonna keep listening, tbh, I don’t think “the first hour” was enough to get the full picture of what transpired. Pain! Suffering! I’ll be walking my dog tho so it’ll be fine

full disclosure: I didn't watch Miller's segment. I read about the exchange in a liveblog of the hearing at the Daily Penn (https://www.thedp.com/article/2023/12/penn-magill-congress-hearing-antisemitism-recap).

Rereading, it was likely only one question, not "questions" as I wrote

Respect. Hope we can get past being asked if my interest in the hearing means I support loathsome House member x or y though. As if I cannot be interested in the topic of campus antisemitism itself and need enlightenment from well-meaning gentiles.

xp

Open Letter from Professionals at Jewish Organizations

to President Biden and Congress

Add your name:
https://bit.ly/JProsLetterSIGN
We are individuals who work for a wide array of Jewish organizations across the United States, coming together across the broad range of beliefs, practices, backgrounds and identities that make up the rich fabric of the American Jewish community. We are uniting together in this moment to call for a ceasefire, the release of all hostages, and a commitment towards a long-term political solution that ensures the freedom and collective safety of Israelis and Palestinians.
When we read in Beresheit (Genesis) that God created human beings in God’s image, we learn that each and every human life is sacred. Jewish tradition teaches that every death is another world destroyed. We mourn for the 1,200 Israelis who were killed on October 7, and pray for the hostages to return home safely. We mourn for the nearly 16,000 Palestinians who have been killed since that day*. Over 17,000 worlds have been destroyed in this war, and many more hang in the balance.
Our texts read, “God, listen to my cry; let Your ears be attentive to my plea for mercy.” (Psalm 130:2).Our hearts are heavy for Israelis and Palestinians who have suffered brutal loss of life, for whole communities that have been destroyed and displaced, for millions of children who deserve so much more than this. We write this letter from a place of deep love and grief for all of these worlds lost, and for all who are living through this horror. The price is too high to pay, the burden too much to bear. This violence must stop.
As a group of professionals from a wide spectrum of Jewish organizations, many of us have devoted our life’s work to building thriving Jewish communities. Our organizations may or may not join the call for a ceasefire themselves, but we feel moved to speak as individuals to demonstrate broad support within the Jewish community for a ceasefire. Whether inspired by our Israeli and Palestinian loved ones, guided by the wisdom of our ancient texts, or motivated by principles passed down to us through the generations, we feel we must speak now.
We know there is no military solution to this crisis. We know that Israelis and Palestinians are here to stay — neither Jewish safety nor Palestinian liberation can be achieved if they are pitted against one another. We know that freedom for one people cannot be reached through the oppression and killing of another. We know that Israeli and Palestinian safety is deeply intertwined and that no one wins a forever war. The only way to lasting peace and security is through diplomatic means that move us towards an equal and just future for all.
We urge President Biden and Congress to work for a ceasefire, the release of the hostages, and a diplomatic solution that guarantees equality, justice, and a thriving future for all.

encouraging to see a lot of names of people on that list that are not from particularly left or anti-zionist orgs.

yes, that is one of the reasons that i posted it, as some of the affiliations of the signatories were unexpected. quite heartening, tbh!

I would gladly sign it if I worked for a Jewish org

I’ve been noticing two different things: explicit anti-semitism, evidenced by the vandalism, direct hate speech delivered in person, and mostly-online conspiratorial thought that’s surging higher than normal. I’ve only witnessed the latter in person, the others are from reporting I’ve read.

The other is more highly-reported, the idea that implicit anti-semitism exists among protests and on college campuses and is evidenced by commentary on the state of Israel and the use of chants/phrases. Language is important but often imprecise and I’ve seen a number of groups change the words and phrases they use in response to feedback. I think that’s wise, but in analysis (for instance, that article linked above where protestors were asked to break down what “from the river to the sea” means) I think deeper meaning is being ascribed to chanting than the actual demands (a ceasefire, ending the direct funding and arming of the current state of Israel, the release of civilian prisoners who had no charges or trial).
In recent history, I’ve heard and read arguments that “no justice, no peace” is an explicit call for riots and violence before, despite the long history of its use as a chant. It’s important to understand how language will be commonly interpreted and adapt, but it’s worth remembering that regardless of what’s said, someone will attempt to interpret words to craft a different narrative, especially when public protest involves heterogenous groups that may have different interpretations and goals.

I understand the perception of implicit anti-semitism is unnerving but it’s also the creeping anxiety of constantly trying to figure out if someone in the room has a deep-seated bias against you, for reasons beyond your control. I haven’t experienced anti-semitism targeting myself, but I understand that anxiety. It’s where you can write a thousand words and spend much of your time inside your own mind. The swastika someone spray painted near a synagogue? We know exactly what that is.

sorry for dropping that in after that excellent link to the open letter. that deserves much more conversation than my rambling

and then it becomes a game of social media telephone where laypeople are dismayed that college professors could not condemn "people calling for the genocide of all jews." which...is not what the people in the protests were calling for.

i know we've already had this discussion, but i'm frustrated by folks in my circle posting social media propaganda about this without digging into what was actually said at these hearings at all. reminds me of the "global day of jihad" phenomenon, where people are reacting to propagandized commentary about the news rather than the news itself.