Israel/Palestine post 10/7 - follow-on events/thoughts as relate to other countries

Yeah it's pretty sad that fewer people are interested in the conditions on campus than the spectacle.

I didn't see the part from Mary Miller. That sounds horrifying.

I’m gonna keep listening, tbh, I don’t think “the first hour” was enough to get the full picture of what transpired. Pain! Suffering! I’ll be walking my dog tho so it’ll be fine

full disclosure: I didn't watch Miller's segment. I read about the exchange in a liveblog of the hearing at the Daily Penn (https://www.thedp.com/article/2023/12/penn-magill-congress-hearing-antisemitism-recap).

Rereading, it was likely only one question, not "questions" as I wrote

Respect. Hope we can get past being asked if my interest in the hearing means I support loathsome House member x or y though. As if I cannot be interested in the topic of campus antisemitism itself and need enlightenment from well-meaning gentiles.

xp

Open Letter from Professionals at Jewish Organizations

to President Biden and Congress

Add your name:
https://bit.ly/JProsLetterSIGN
We are individuals who work for a wide array of Jewish organizations across the United States, coming together across the broad range of beliefs, practices, backgrounds and identities that make up the rich fabric of the American Jewish community. We are uniting together in this moment to call for a ceasefire, the release of all hostages, and a commitment towards a long-term political solution that ensures the freedom and collective safety of Israelis and Palestinians.
When we read in Beresheit (Genesis) that God created human beings in God’s image, we learn that each and every human life is sacred. Jewish tradition teaches that every death is another world destroyed. We mourn for the 1,200 Israelis who were killed on October 7, and pray for the hostages to return home safely. We mourn for the nearly 16,000 Palestinians who have been killed since that day*. Over 17,000 worlds have been destroyed in this war, and many more hang in the balance.
Our texts read, “God, listen to my cry; let Your ears be attentive to my plea for mercy.” (Psalm 130:2).Our hearts are heavy for Israelis and Palestinians who have suffered brutal loss of life, for whole communities that have been destroyed and displaced, for millions of children who deserve so much more than this. We write this letter from a place of deep love and grief for all of these worlds lost, and for all who are living through this horror. The price is too high to pay, the burden too much to bear. This violence must stop.
As a group of professionals from a wide spectrum of Jewish organizations, many of us have devoted our life’s work to building thriving Jewish communities. Our organizations may or may not join the call for a ceasefire themselves, but we feel moved to speak as individuals to demonstrate broad support within the Jewish community for a ceasefire. Whether inspired by our Israeli and Palestinian loved ones, guided by the wisdom of our ancient texts, or motivated by principles passed down to us through the generations, we feel we must speak now.
We know there is no military solution to this crisis. We know that Israelis and Palestinians are here to stay — neither Jewish safety nor Palestinian liberation can be achieved if they are pitted against one another. We know that freedom for one people cannot be reached through the oppression and killing of another. We know that Israeli and Palestinian safety is deeply intertwined and that no one wins a forever war. The only way to lasting peace and security is through diplomatic means that move us towards an equal and just future for all.
We urge President Biden and Congress to work for a ceasefire, the release of the hostages, and a diplomatic solution that guarantees equality, justice, and a thriving future for all.

encouraging to see a lot of names of people on that list that are not from particularly left or anti-zionist orgs.

yes, that is one of the reasons that i posted it, as some of the affiliations of the signatories were unexpected. quite heartening, tbh!

I would gladly sign it if I worked for a Jewish org

I’ve been noticing two different things: explicit anti-semitism, evidenced by the vandalism, direct hate speech delivered in person, and mostly-online conspiratorial thought that’s surging higher than normal. I’ve only witnessed the latter in person, the others are from reporting I’ve read.

The other is more highly-reported, the idea that implicit anti-semitism exists among protests and on college campuses and is evidenced by commentary on the state of Israel and the use of chants/phrases. Language is important but often imprecise and I’ve seen a number of groups change the words and phrases they use in response to feedback. I think that’s wise, but in analysis (for instance, that article linked above where protestors were asked to break down what “from the river to the sea” means) I think deeper meaning is being ascribed to chanting than the actual demands (a ceasefire, ending the direct funding and arming of the current state of Israel, the release of civilian prisoners who had no charges or trial).
In recent history, I’ve heard and read arguments that “no justice, no peace” is an explicit call for riots and violence before, despite the long history of its use as a chant. It’s important to understand how language will be commonly interpreted and adapt, but it’s worth remembering that regardless of what’s said, someone will attempt to interpret words to craft a different narrative, especially when public protest involves heterogenous groups that may have different interpretations and goals.

I understand the perception of implicit anti-semitism is unnerving but it’s also the creeping anxiety of constantly trying to figure out if someone in the room has a deep-seated bias against you, for reasons beyond your control. I haven’t experienced anti-semitism targeting myself, but I understand that anxiety. It’s where you can write a thousand words and spend much of your time inside your own mind. The swastika someone spray painted near a synagogue? We know exactly what that is.

sorry for dropping that in after that excellent link to the open letter. that deserves much more conversation than my rambling

and then it becomes a game of social media telephone where laypeople are dismayed that college professors could not condemn "people calling for the genocide of all jews." which...is not what the people in the protests were calling for.

i know we've already had this discussion, but i'm frustrated by folks in my circle posting social media propaganda about this without digging into what was actually said at these hearings at all. reminds me of the "global day of jihad" phenomenon, where people are reacting to propagandized commentary about the news rather than the news itself.

*presidents, not professors

I don’t think I cared this much about college students when I was a college student

sorry for dropping that in after that excellent link to the open letter. that deserves much more conversation than my rambling

― ɥɯ ︵ (°□°) (mh), Friday, December 8, 2023 11:31 AM (thirteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

no that was a v good post, well put

Another thanks for sharing that open letter. Not sure if it's appropriate for me to sign it as a non-Jewish person working at a Jewish institution but I've already shared it with a number of colleagues who are strongly pro-ceasefire

Guardian has a long report on the Solomonov situation with new details: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/08/michael-solomonov-philadelphia-restaurant-israel-antisemitic-protest

That is a good letter. I like how it includes releasing the hostages and diplomatic solution with ceasefire, and expresses not pitting Jewish people against Palestinian people.

Serious question: is there a reason non Jewish groups wouldn't also sign such a letter? I tried to find some reference to release of hostages in the SNP amendment that the UK Labour front benchers were resigning over a couple weeks ago, for example.

Was that in the SNP amendment or omitted as an oversight or... ?

I mean aside from the Bible stuff maybe - which doesn't particularly resonate with me but doesn't offend me either

Thanks for sharing the letter, tabes, and thanks mh for your not-at-all-rambling post

It seems to me to be an important argument that is best argued by Jewish people (Jewish scholars especially), to attempt to dissociate a call for a ceasefire (let alone an argument that Israelis and Palestinians should be able to co-exist peacefully) from allegations of anti-Semitism. Letters such as these have a more concentrated effect if they are limited in their signatories, no Gentiles allowed. The inclusion of the first line of Psalm 130 quote in particular is pointed and effective-- part of the Yom Kippur liturgy, attributed to David-- Christians know the same Psalm as De Profundis and it's an important prayer of penitence to them as well-- in that it is a supplicant, an acknowledgement of the iniquities one has visited upon others, verbatim asks G-d to forgive Israel for its iniquities; the significance of its inclusion is notable

Ok, thanks.

Again - maybe naïve question: has anyone tried to ask for the release of the hostages with ceasefire and been called antisemitic for doing so?

It seems like I have read a lot saying the hostages really were the sticking point, not this sort of scripture confession of iniquity.

Harvard President apologizes for not doing a better job at that hearing: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67662871?at_medium=RSS&at_campaign=KARANGA

Stefanik gunning for DEI programs at universities as a result of this. Surprise!

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/12/08/stefanik-colleges-antisemitism-israel-hamas-00130890?cid=politico_bsky

House Republicans plan to proceed with document requests of universities and colleges to determine the scope of antisemitism in higher education.

“I believe we’re going to find this is ingrained in the universities themselves,” she said.

cool, sounds super objective

Remember when the CIA murdered the UN Secretary-General Dag Hammarskjöld in 1961 when he tried to invoke the same Art. 99 in the DR Congo. https://t.co/V9UNfzVOgg pic.twitter.com/pZpMWrss5s

— K.Diallo ☭ (@nyeusi_waasi) December 8, 2023

It's sort of ironic because Harvard's admission practices in the 20th century were strongly driven by antisemitism:

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2023/11/9/legacy-admissions-scrut/

And I believe "diversity" was partly to keep Jewish quotas down.

Now it looks like antisemitism will be the excuse for going after DEI.

In before people start blaming Jewish US college students for this.

Just watching the repulsive Jake Wallis Simons on Sky TV bringing up Dresden yet again.

thought this article about the large Palestinian community of Paterson NJ was really good:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/05/nyregion/palestinians-paterson-nj.html

In dozens of interviews over the last month, many Palestinians in this part of New Jersey expressed grief and fear for relatives in Gaza. They felt overwhelmed by television coverage and were glued to their phones, desperately checking social media and messaging apps for news from the war.

Mohammed Abuassi, 29, a real estate investor, said he sends daily messages on WhatsApp to his cousins in Gaza. When one replies, he knows that cousin is alive. Nine of his family members were killed by a single Israeli airstrike early in the war, he said.

The conflict has also hardened long-held feelings among many Palestinians in New Jersey of alienation from American institutions, even as they witness and participate in the largest pro-Palestinian demonstrations in American history.

“The protests give me hope,” said Diab Mustafa, chairman of the Palestinian American Community Center in Clifton, a suburb of Paterson. “But the reactions to the protests, I don’t like. You should be able to march for Palestinian rights without being called antisemitic or a terrorist sympathizer.”

Making my way through this.

"Hamas’s gambit, then, may have been to sacrifice municipal governance of a besieged Gaza to cement its status as a national resistance organization. Hamas is not trying to bury Fatah: The various unity agreements between Hamas and Fatah, particularly those led by prisoners of both factions, demonstrate that Hamas seeks a united front. The PA is unable to protect West Bank Palestinians from the increasing violence of Israeli settlements and entrenched control, let alone to meaningfully respond to the bloodshed in Gaza. Under the cover of Western backing on Gaza, Israel has killed hundreds of Palestinians, arrested thousands, and displaced entire villages on the West Bank, all the while escalating its state-sponsored settler attacks. In so doing, Israel has further undermined Fatah among the population and pushed them in the direction of Hamas."

https://archive.is/frDO7

This comment from October is on the TL again after the debacle at the UN. Hard to disagree with.

---

Vincent Bevins
@Vinncent
·
14 Oct
Every once in a while, the actual rules of the liberal international order become terrifyingly clear. This shocks people of good conscience in the First World, while billions of others, who do not have the luxury of this ignorance, see awful confirmation of what they already know

Chilling display in Guernica.

In 1937, the Nazis bombed this village on behalf of Franco’s Spanish Nationalists, who saw it as a center for the resistance against fascism.

86 years later, descendants of that horror express solidarity with Palestinians.pic.twitter.com/tUqXowzBSA

— Prem Thakker (@prem_thakker) December 8, 2023

Hmm...wonder what this could mean for all of us in the future?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/08/us-police-agencies-idf-files-blueleaks?

Thanks for sharing that.

On the literary side of things, my dear friend Emily Martin caused a stir at the Brooklyn Rail on Thursday, where she read a new iteration of a poem and prefaced it with a repudiation of the Israeli state’s policies. After months of staff trying to get the Rail to commit to BDS principles, the editor in chief and others on the board have agreed to write in support of these principles because of Emily’s reading— so, while small, poetry can have an impact on peoples’ hearts and minds. Instagram link, but here it is:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0ojqAGOqWC/?igshid=N2ViNmM2MDRjNw==

In many ways, it reflects the open letter that I posted above, with the most salient point being that violence and displacement of an out-group never makes an in-group more safe.

This comment from October is on the TL again after the debacle at the UN. Hard to disagree with.

I've been trying to find the wording of thr draft resolution, as I have read conflicting accounts of whether it includes a demand for release of hostages.

https://press.un.org/en/2023/sc15519.doc.htm

I guess my questions here are:

Wasn't there a truce earlier and agreement to let Red Cross visit Hamas hostages? What happened?

Which member of the Security Council introduced this resolution? Is it hypocritical to introduce this resolution under Article 99 and not against Russia for invading Ukraine?

The earlier truce was brought about by diplomatic negotiations. Would it be productive for more neighboring countries to recognize Israel diplomatically as a step for negotiated peace?

I think we know more about how the hostages were treated since Oct. 14. There is a lot of skepticism about how slow the UN were to believe the accounts of sexual violence.

Who is recognised, and who is not recognised?

What accounts of sexual violence, who has bought them up and have they been independently verified?

Many questions, wonder if they'll be answered by the time this genocide ends? Maybe it isn't a genocide of a people?

Lots, lots of questions to look into. No time to lose!

why do we now need lots of independent verification of sexual violence?

Independent verification of sexual violence is nearly impossible in the circumstances. It’s usually wiser to assume any such statistics are underestimated, if anything. In the conflict in the eastern Congo, the percentage of women and children said to have experienced sexual violence from militants is exorbitant.

There is this very good piece today, which takes a broad view of what’s happening and doesn’t pull any punches.

Tapping my own personal sign because I feel like I am always saying this!

History also suggests a pattern in which representatives of movements dismissed as “terrorist” by their adversaries—in South Africa, say, or Ireland—nonetheless appear at the negotiating table when the time comes to seek political solutions. It would be ahistorical to bet against Hamas, or at least some version of the political-ideological current it represents, doing the same if and when a political solution between Israel and the Palestinians is revisited with seriousness.

Lots of questions.

I was responding to xyzzzz saying "hard to disagree with"

My first question was:

Wasn't there a truce earlier and agreement to let Red Cross visit Hamas hostages? What happened?

Questions back are fair. I thought people wanted genocide to end. These comments were on pointing to the UN.

also, I mean, cmon. I feel like there is a concerted effort at times to utterly dismiss the atrocity of Oct 7th from some people (these people being randoms I see on social media, admittedly). You know you can condemn the IDF and Israel's subsequent abhorrent actions in Gaza while also acknowledging the horror of Hamas' attack. The creeping narrative that Oct 7th didn't really happen the way it's said to have happened, that these are lies, etc is extremely disturbing to me, as disturbing as that poll that indicated that 20% of people between the ages of 18 and 29 think the holocaust is fake.

It's perfectly valid to say "fuck Hamas and the IDF". They are death merchants, all of them.

Justice requires evidence. I bring it up because of the way that comment is being deployed here, which is to discredit the UN and that Art. 99 resolution.

Ukraine - Russia comment is nonsense. Ukraine has full backing of the West to defend itself and are being supplied. Ukrainians are a recognised people and a state.

"Justice requires evidence"

why have different standards for sexual violence accusations committed in the west than during wartime actions in the middle east?

also, I mean, cmon. I feel like there is a concerted effort at times to utterly dismiss the atrocity of Oct 7th from some people (these people being randoms I see on social media, admittedly).

No one on ilx denies Oct 7th happened.

No one is asking for different standards.

This is a thread for reaction in the West to 10/7 in other countries. It's very true there is a denialist narrative growing on 10/7. It is of concern because there is also a growing belief (20%) among US young people that the Holocaust did not occur.

You feel you can use also "6 million" in criticizing Germany.

Why is it upsetting to discuss 10/7 denialism here.

thanks, yes, it really bothers me. I mean you can support Palestinians, Gaza, etc without turning a blind eye to Oct 7th and Hamas' actions. I'm gobsmacked. I think that if condemning Hamas gets us closer to ceasefire resolutions (I'm not sure what kind of actual power such UN resolutions have) then it should be done. The violence and killing has to stop. Maybe I'm a naive fucking hippy?

Negotiations happened with Hamas to open the Rafah Crossing to get humanitarian aid to Gaza and to secure the release of hostages and exchange of prisoners.

I don't see anyone needed to be convinced of that.

Why is it upsetting to discuss 10/7 denialism here.

OTM

If it upsets you, post it.

Calling for the death of a group of people of which you are a member sounds horrible.