Israel/Palestine post 10/7 - follow-on events/thoughts as relate to other countries

I’ve been noticing two different things: explicit anti-semitism, evidenced by the vandalism, direct hate speech delivered in person, and mostly-online conspiratorial thought that’s surging higher than normal. I’ve only witnessed the latter in person, the others are from reporting I’ve read.

The other is more highly-reported, the idea that implicit anti-semitism exists among protests and on college campuses and is evidenced by commentary on the state of Israel and the use of chants/phrases. Language is important but often imprecise and I’ve seen a number of groups change the words and phrases they use in response to feedback. I think that’s wise, but in analysis (for instance, that article linked above where protestors were asked to break down what “from the river to the sea” means) I think deeper meaning is being ascribed to chanting than the actual demands (a ceasefire, ending the direct funding and arming of the current state of Israel, the release of civilian prisoners who had no charges or trial).
In recent history, I’ve heard and read arguments that “no justice, no peace” is an explicit call for riots and violence before, despite the long history of its use as a chant. It’s important to understand how language will be commonly interpreted and adapt, but it’s worth remembering that regardless of what’s said, someone will attempt to interpret words to craft a different narrative, especially when public protest involves heterogenous groups that may have different interpretations and goals.

I understand the perception of implicit anti-semitism is unnerving but it’s also the creeping anxiety of constantly trying to figure out if someone in the room has a deep-seated bias against you, for reasons beyond your control. I haven’t experienced anti-semitism targeting myself, but I understand that anxiety. It’s where you can write a thousand words and spend much of your time inside your own mind. The swastika someone spray painted near a synagogue? We know exactly what that is.

sorry for dropping that in after that excellent link to the open letter. that deserves much more conversation than my rambling

and then it becomes a game of social media telephone where laypeople are dismayed that college professors could not condemn "people calling for the genocide of all jews." which...is not what the people in the protests were calling for.

i know we've already had this discussion, but i'm frustrated by folks in my circle posting social media propaganda about this without digging into what was actually said at these hearings at all. reminds me of the "global day of jihad" phenomenon, where people are reacting to propagandized commentary about the news rather than the news itself.

*presidents, not professors

I don’t think I cared this much about college students when I was a college student

sorry for dropping that in after that excellent link to the open letter. that deserves much more conversation than my rambling

― ɥɯ ︵ (°□°) (mh), Friday, December 8, 2023 11:31 AM (thirteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

no that was a v good post, well put

Another thanks for sharing that open letter. Not sure if it's appropriate for me to sign it as a non-Jewish person working at a Jewish institution but I've already shared it with a number of colleagues who are strongly pro-ceasefire

Guardian has a long report on the Solomonov situation with new details: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/08/michael-solomonov-philadelphia-restaurant-israel-antisemitic-protest

That is a good letter. I like how it includes releasing the hostages and diplomatic solution with ceasefire, and expresses not pitting Jewish people against Palestinian people.

Serious question: is there a reason non Jewish groups wouldn't also sign such a letter? I tried to find some reference to release of hostages in the SNP amendment that the UK Labour front benchers were resigning over a couple weeks ago, for example.

Was that in the SNP amendment or omitted as an oversight or... ?

I mean aside from the Bible stuff maybe - which doesn't particularly resonate with me but doesn't offend me either

Thanks for sharing the letter, tabes, and thanks mh for your not-at-all-rambling post

It seems to me to be an important argument that is best argued by Jewish people (Jewish scholars especially), to attempt to dissociate a call for a ceasefire (let alone an argument that Israelis and Palestinians should be able to co-exist peacefully) from allegations of anti-Semitism. Letters such as these have a more concentrated effect if they are limited in their signatories, no Gentiles allowed. The inclusion of the first line of Psalm 130 quote in particular is pointed and effective-- part of the Yom Kippur liturgy, attributed to David-- Christians know the same Psalm as De Profundis and it's an important prayer of penitence to them as well-- in that it is a supplicant, an acknowledgement of the iniquities one has visited upon others, verbatim asks G-d to forgive Israel for its iniquities; the significance of its inclusion is notable

Ok, thanks.

Again - maybe naïve question: has anyone tried to ask for the release of the hostages with ceasefire and been called antisemitic for doing so?

It seems like I have read a lot saying the hostages really were the sticking point, not this sort of scripture confession of iniquity.

Harvard President apologizes for not doing a better job at that hearing: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67662871?at_medium=RSS&at_campaign=KARANGA

Stefanik gunning for DEI programs at universities as a result of this. Surprise!

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/12/08/stefanik-colleges-antisemitism-israel-hamas-00130890?cid=politico_bsky

House Republicans plan to proceed with document requests of universities and colleges to determine the scope of antisemitism in higher education.

“I believe we’re going to find this is ingrained in the universities themselves,” she said.

cool, sounds super objective

Remember when the CIA murdered the UN Secretary-General Dag Hammarskjöld in 1961 when he tried to invoke the same Art. 99 in the DR Congo. https://t.co/V9UNfzVOgg pic.twitter.com/pZpMWrss5s

— K.Diallo ☭ (@nyeusi_waasi) December 8, 2023

It's sort of ironic because Harvard's admission practices in the 20th century were strongly driven by antisemitism:

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2023/11/9/legacy-admissions-scrut/

And I believe "diversity" was partly to keep Jewish quotas down.

Now it looks like antisemitism will be the excuse for going after DEI.

In before people start blaming Jewish US college students for this.

Just watching the repulsive Jake Wallis Simons on Sky TV bringing up Dresden yet again.

thought this article about the large Palestinian community of Paterson NJ was really good:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/05/nyregion/palestinians-paterson-nj.html

In dozens of interviews over the last month, many Palestinians in this part of New Jersey expressed grief and fear for relatives in Gaza. They felt overwhelmed by television coverage and were glued to their phones, desperately checking social media and messaging apps for news from the war.

Mohammed Abuassi, 29, a real estate investor, said he sends daily messages on WhatsApp to his cousins in Gaza. When one replies, he knows that cousin is alive. Nine of his family members were killed by a single Israeli airstrike early in the war, he said.

The conflict has also hardened long-held feelings among many Palestinians in New Jersey of alienation from American institutions, even as they witness and participate in the largest pro-Palestinian demonstrations in American history.

“The protests give me hope,” said Diab Mustafa, chairman of the Palestinian American Community Center in Clifton, a suburb of Paterson. “But the reactions to the protests, I don’t like. You should be able to march for Palestinian rights without being called antisemitic or a terrorist sympathizer.”

Making my way through this.

"Hamas’s gambit, then, may have been to sacrifice municipal governance of a besieged Gaza to cement its status as a national resistance organization. Hamas is not trying to bury Fatah: The various unity agreements between Hamas and Fatah, particularly those led by prisoners of both factions, demonstrate that Hamas seeks a united front. The PA is unable to protect West Bank Palestinians from the increasing violence of Israeli settlements and entrenched control, let alone to meaningfully respond to the bloodshed in Gaza. Under the cover of Western backing on Gaza, Israel has killed hundreds of Palestinians, arrested thousands, and displaced entire villages on the West Bank, all the while escalating its state-sponsored settler attacks. In so doing, Israel has further undermined Fatah among the population and pushed them in the direction of Hamas."

https://archive.is/frDO7

This comment from October is on the TL again after the debacle at the UN. Hard to disagree with.

---

Vincent Bevins
@Vinncent
·
14 Oct
Every once in a while, the actual rules of the liberal international order become terrifyingly clear. This shocks people of good conscience in the First World, while billions of others, who do not have the luxury of this ignorance, see awful confirmation of what they already know

Chilling display in Guernica.

In 1937, the Nazis bombed this village on behalf of Franco’s Spanish Nationalists, who saw it as a center for the resistance against fascism.

86 years later, descendants of that horror express solidarity with Palestinians.pic.twitter.com/tUqXowzBSA

— Prem Thakker (@prem_thakker) December 8, 2023

Hmm...wonder what this could mean for all of us in the future?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/08/us-police-agencies-idf-files-blueleaks?

Thanks for sharing that.

On the literary side of things, my dear friend Emily Martin caused a stir at the Brooklyn Rail on Thursday, where she read a new iteration of a poem and prefaced it with a repudiation of the Israeli state’s policies. After months of staff trying to get the Rail to commit to BDS principles, the editor in chief and others on the board have agreed to write in support of these principles because of Emily’s reading— so, while small, poetry can have an impact on peoples’ hearts and minds. Instagram link, but here it is:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0ojqAGOqWC/?igshid=N2ViNmM2MDRjNw==

In many ways, it reflects the open letter that I posted above, with the most salient point being that violence and displacement of an out-group never makes an in-group more safe.

This comment from October is on the TL again after the debacle at the UN. Hard to disagree with.

I've been trying to find the wording of thr draft resolution, as I have read conflicting accounts of whether it includes a demand for release of hostages.

https://press.un.org/en/2023/sc15519.doc.htm

I guess my questions here are:

Wasn't there a truce earlier and agreement to let Red Cross visit Hamas hostages? What happened?

Which member of the Security Council introduced this resolution? Is it hypocritical to introduce this resolution under Article 99 and not against Russia for invading Ukraine?

The earlier truce was brought about by diplomatic negotiations. Would it be productive for more neighboring countries to recognize Israel diplomatically as a step for negotiated peace?

I think we know more about how the hostages were treated since Oct. 14. There is a lot of skepticism about how slow the UN were to believe the accounts of sexual violence.

Who is recognised, and who is not recognised?

What accounts of sexual violence, who has bought them up and have they been independently verified?

Many questions, wonder if they'll be answered by the time this genocide ends? Maybe it isn't a genocide of a people?

Lots, lots of questions to look into. No time to lose!

why do we now need lots of independent verification of sexual violence?

Independent verification of sexual violence is nearly impossible in the circumstances. It’s usually wiser to assume any such statistics are underestimated, if anything. In the conflict in the eastern Congo, the percentage of women and children said to have experienced sexual violence from militants is exorbitant.

There is this very good piece today, which takes a broad view of what’s happening and doesn’t pull any punches.

Tapping my own personal sign because I feel like I am always saying this!

History also suggests a pattern in which representatives of movements dismissed as “terrorist” by their adversaries—in South Africa, say, or Ireland—nonetheless appear at the negotiating table when the time comes to seek political solutions. It would be ahistorical to bet against Hamas, or at least some version of the political-ideological current it represents, doing the same if and when a political solution between Israel and the Palestinians is revisited with seriousness.

Lots of questions.

I was responding to xyzzzz saying "hard to disagree with"

My first question was:

Wasn't there a truce earlier and agreement to let Red Cross visit Hamas hostages? What happened?

Questions back are fair. I thought people wanted genocide to end. These comments were on pointing to the UN.

also, I mean, cmon. I feel like there is a concerted effort at times to utterly dismiss the atrocity of Oct 7th from some people (these people being randoms I see on social media, admittedly). You know you can condemn the IDF and Israel's subsequent abhorrent actions in Gaza while also acknowledging the horror of Hamas' attack. The creeping narrative that Oct 7th didn't really happen the way it's said to have happened, that these are lies, etc is extremely disturbing to me, as disturbing as that poll that indicated that 20% of people between the ages of 18 and 29 think the holocaust is fake.

It's perfectly valid to say "fuck Hamas and the IDF". They are death merchants, all of them.

Justice requires evidence. I bring it up because of the way that comment is being deployed here, which is to discredit the UN and that Art. 99 resolution.

Ukraine - Russia comment is nonsense. Ukraine has full backing of the West to defend itself and are being supplied. Ukrainians are a recognised people and a state.

"Justice requires evidence"

why have different standards for sexual violence accusations committed in the west than during wartime actions in the middle east?

also, I mean, cmon. I feel like there is a concerted effort at times to utterly dismiss the atrocity of Oct 7th from some people (these people being randoms I see on social media, admittedly).

No one on ilx denies Oct 7th happened.

No one is asking for different standards.

This is a thread for reaction in the West to 10/7 in other countries. It's very true there is a denialist narrative growing on 10/7. It is of concern because there is also a growing belief (20%) among US young people that the Holocaust did not occur.

You feel you can use also "6 million" in criticizing Germany.

Why is it upsetting to discuss 10/7 denialism here.

thanks, yes, it really bothers me. I mean you can support Palestinians, Gaza, etc without turning a blind eye to Oct 7th and Hamas' actions. I'm gobsmacked. I think that if condemning Hamas gets us closer to ceasefire resolutions (I'm not sure what kind of actual power such UN resolutions have) then it should be done. The violence and killing has to stop. Maybe I'm a naive fucking hippy?

Negotiations happened with Hamas to open the Rafah Crossing to get humanitarian aid to Gaza and to secure the release of hostages and exchange of prisoners.

I don't see anyone needed to be convinced of that.

Why is it upsetting to discuss 10/7 denialism here.

OTM

If it upsets you, post it.

Calling for the death of a group of people of which you are a member sounds horrible.

We keep getting told about this stuff by various ILXors but, if you're not actually on Twitter 24/7, you'll be completely unaware it even exists.

I think its definitely easy to miss if you're not on twitter much, which is why the polling data came as something as a surprise to me

Saw some things about Ireland but didn't think it was my place to bringt it up.

If you want to discuss I think you'll find nothing but sympathy here.

xp but it doesn’t add anything, to me. I know these people are disgusting. I also know they aren’t representative. And I know most of all there’s so much misinformation around that there is no single source we all agree on, for all I know they are radicalised by whatever shit they read online - we don’t exist in the same reality.

When people bring up the UN voting I think reminding people that the UN had a terrible reaction to the sexual assualt on 10/9 is important.

What accounts of sexual violence, who has bought them up and have they been independently verified?

Reminding people that there should not be a double standard for this is part of this.

The reminder is again, serving to discredit a vote on a UN resolution, calling for a ceasefire that would save lives.

All that the Palestinians have is powerless orgs or demos happening in other countries, where they chant "from the river to the sea", which has also been questioned, also serving to undermine that effort

All of which is serving the ongoing genocide of the Palestinian people by the Israeli fascist government. Nevertheless it is a state, like Ukraine, which has powerful backing, whether middle eastern countries recognise or not.

there is no single source we all agree on, for all I know they are radicalised by whatever shit they read online - we don’t exist in the same reality.

― mojo dojo casas house (gyac), Saturday, December 9, 2023 9:52 AM bookmarkflaglink

This is a good point. Also we shouldn't feel the obligation that everyine has to agree, because then what you get is a group beholden to the most disagreeable member.

Agree with xyzzz's attitude of get the source out there and we can look at it.

Sorry I have been critical of source in the past. And also why early on I said Israel doesn't get to kill a lot of joutnalists and then complaint about slant.

The fact that we can discuss and disagree about source is healthier imo than having no source.

I think that one of the problems here and with this issue in general is that each person has differing loci of attention. Sexual violence is always abhorrent, and should always be condemned. Part of what makes people upset on either “side” of this issue is that it seems as if little attention is being paid to the atrocities being committed by the other “side.” This perception, in turn, leads people to dismiss the claims of atrocity. Because Israel has the backing of much of the”the West,” there is also an asymmetricality in terms of who gets believed and who doesn’t when talking about any kind of violence.

I am not targeting anyone in this thread with the above— just noting a dynamic I have noticed, and have admittedly been party to, of which I am regretful.

Also, it is important to note that there are numerous recent reports of sexual assault by Israeli prison guards against imprisoned Palestinians (see here and here.

These reports are not widely reported or talked about in the US media, from what I have seen, and they absolutely should be in the same way that sexual violence against Israelis is being talked about.

Again, this is not some sort of atrocity or oppression Olympics, but there should be equal treatment and coverage when such awful things occur.

You are right about that table. Hard agree.