Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

What’s more barbaric than setting food and water on fire while people are starving.

This is filmed in northern Gaza where people go on days without a meal or a sip of water. I have no words left. pic.twitter.com/IxbK9cXPZC

— Marwa Fatafta مروة فطافطة (@marwasf) December 10, 2023

As the screenshot show we have the technology to see these atrocities playing out in a way that is surely quite new.

Wonder what the outcomes might be. For now, there is nothing there. Lives cannot be saved.

“My name is Yafa. And I don't want to die and be mentioned in the media as a number.” 12 Oct 23

“The tanks are very close to us. And we are waiting for our imminent death.” 5 Dec 23

Yafa is killed now. Yafa is NOT A NUMBER. pic.twitter.com/ui7k4SIvy5

— Ahmed Alnaouq (@AlnaouqA) December 9, 2023

Front Line Defenders
@FrontLineHRD
#Gaza, Occupied Palestinian Territory:

🚨 We are saddened by the news that disability rights defender Bader Mosleh was killed by an Israeli airstrike in Deir al Balah, Gaza Strip on 7 December. He leaves a legacy of courage & dedication.

Read more: https://www.frontlinedefenders.org/en/profile/bader-mosleh

Field executions, torture, and threats of rape: In Gaza, Israel’s army replicates the crimes committed by Zionist gangs in 1948

Dark lol at the community note saying how Israeli soldiers pointing a gun at an ambulance is a tradition.

Israeli forces detain paramedics at gun point preventing them from saving lives in Gaza…🇵🇸💔 pic.twitter.com/KQ55RlY8N8

— Pelham (@Resist_05) December 8, 2023

Thread on further resolution from the UN.

BREAKING: Egypt & Mauritania have invoked UNGA Res 377 - Uniting for Peace - to address Gaza genocide.

Res.377 states that if UN Security Council, due to lack of unanimity of permanent 5 members, fails to exercise its primary responsibility to act to maintain intnl peace &… pic.twitter.com/LFEhjPNQ1w

— Huwaida Arraf (@huwaidaarraf) December 11, 2023

This is unbelievably disgusting.

The Abu Ghraib scandal sent shock waves through the Middle East with repercussions to this day. What's happening now is on a far larger scale than Abu Ghraib. This will be Biden's legacy. https://t.co/anln9fHJGl

— Jeet Heer (@HeerJeet) December 12, 2023

here's a non-paywalled version of the Haaretz story--not that I necessarily recommend reading this, it's intensely disturbing: https://archive.is/E1B64

James Denselow
@jamesdenselow
It is with profound sadness we confirm that a staff member of Save the Children and his family have been killed by an Israeli airstrike in Gaza.

Sameh Ewaida, 39, was the proud father of four children – Mohammad (12), Heba (11), Zeina (3), and Zein (2)

From the minister of Communications in Israel (Likud party):
http://cdn.bsky.app/img/feed_fullsize/plain/did%3Aplc%3At46sqvutibvsmjgwn6r6izve/bafkreihc36srli4hmyupf7jscmjkqqybz3zywvjff63v347v74gt37cwpu@jpeg

akm, can you link to that tweet? I want to post it.

I got it off bluesky where Yashar Ali reposted it, so you might want to check his twitter/x account

here's the bsky link, no idea if this works for non-users

https://bsky.app/profile/yasharali.bsky.social/post/3kgeyopzurl2z

here's the Nitter post

https://nitter.net/shlomo_karhi/status/1734631075043778670#m

Jeremy Scahill?! There's a name I haven't seen in a while.

I mean that's kind of been the policy platform of Likkud for a while now (no Palestinian state, Oslo failed, no partner for peace, etc.), so it's not surprising.

Yeah good point

Israel has been attacking Jenin refugee camp in the occupied West Bank for over 30 hours, destroying infrastructure, demolishing houses & murdering Palestinians. pic.twitter.com/AyrpYaXZ3n

— Saul Staniforth (@SaulStaniforth) December 13, 2023

More war crimes.

Six weeks ago I posted that annexation was seeming more-and-more like the only possible endgame here. Thoughts about that now?

I haven't been posting as much on the topic because the feeling is increasingly feeling like I'm screaming at a forest fire. I march every weekend and don't know what else to do

I’ve thought that from the beginning, I mean you have elements in the government actively saying it, and their actions so far are not inconsistent with replanting Gaza with settlements.

No idea but I’ve never felt the term genocide fit as well as ethnic cleansing. It reminds me very much of the Balkans.

Everything emerging is just increasingly horrific. Don’t even know what to say.

I’ve never felt the term genocide fit as well as ethnic cleansing.

Had this same thought the other day. And yeah, it really seems like they're increasingly mask-off about their intention to simply take over Gaza (and possibly the West Bank, since they're now attacking there, too).

What are the differences between those two terms?

What are the differences between those two terms?

_I’ve never felt the term genocide fit as well as ethnic cleansing._

Had this same thought the other day. And yeah, it really seems like they're increasingly mask-off about their intention to simply take over Gaza (and possibly the West Bank, since they're now attacking there, too).

thanks, gyac, I hadn't encountered that distinction before

idk if the distinctions are so easy to make in practice but the biggest issue with genocide as a concept is that it hinges on the intent of the perpetrators - it should be enough that mass murder is happening but it seems the g word is necessary to provoke a certain level of outrage from the international community - so you often have to make assumptions about what perpetrators are trying to achieve

(also if the original formulation of the genocide concept was consistently taken seriously many currently highly controversial claims of genocide would be much less so but the meaning has drifted)

It's enough that mass murder is happening.

For me, pushing 'genocide' is more to do with this sounding worse than ethnic cleansing, and that the urgency would push more people to march. And maybe more action.

As it is rn this is all a scream into the void.

it’s not but it’s terribly “why not both?”

There can be individual acts of genocide or genocidal acts without ripening into what people might accept as a full genocide, just like people can make individual racist or antisemitic statements and still not "be" antisemites or racists.

Going by intent, 10/7 included deliberate acts of genocide. The Hamas Charter states genocidal intent. There is a lot of gaslighting about whether the perpetrators of 10/7 were targeting military targets only.

Also saying mass killing of Palestinians is not a "genocide" based on rising populations is abhorrent.

The reason people debate "river to the sea" is that *some people* think it's perceived as calling for ethnic cleansing of the population of Israel. According to a WSJ poll, many students do not know what river or sea they are talking about. I've seen videos of people being asked where the current population should go - they don't know, or say "Back to Europe, back to Brooklyn, who cares!"

I know some here have said people should not be upset because really this is a call for a utopian 1-state solution. Ok, that seemed pretty fraught in Algeria, in Egypt, in most other Arab states.

I have been thinking about this idea that killing large portions of a population only creates terrorists. Perhaps that explains why some view Israel as a terrorist country. Who created that - the UN? No solutions here, just it's an extremely sad situation.

I should clarify upthread for “Why distinguish” is that when eventually the bombardment stops, Gaza will be largely uninhabitable. The majority of Palestinians will still be alive, but they won’t have a home to return to. That’s the goal of ethnic cleansing and why I specifically distinguished. Not to minimise anything that’s happening.

The reason people debate "river to the sea" is that *some people* think it's perceived as calling for ethnic cleansing of the population of Israel. According to a WSJ poll, many students do not know what river or sea they are talking about. I've seen videos of people being asked where the current population should go - they don't know, or say "Back to Europe, back to Brooklyn, who cares!"

Whereas those Israelis who believe the Jewish state should be from the river to the sea know exactly where the Palestinians should go.

"Free Palestine" has also been tone policed like this too. It's an attempt to silence pro-Palestinian movements in the two months since 10/7. Its reactionary politics.

. And also that Free Palestine has been weaponized and attacked in the UK.
Right, like I said no solutions, just sadness. And a bit of skeptism that UN meddling has ever done anything but bring death and bloodinesd to the area.

I think there is bit of a culture clash when discussing protest on the internet that makes context opaque. The US accords peaceful protest the highest level of protection under the First Amendment. That tolerance is theoretically the price of livung in a democracy. I accept UK accounts that large scale protests have been peaceful.

That's a bit different from blockading students fom using libraries or intimidating students of certain religions for practicing their faith.

I heard whether this is restriction on free speech or harassment depends on context.

Whereas those Israelis who believe the Jewish state should be from the river to the sea know exactly where the Palestinians should go.

― Free Ass Ange (Tom D.), Wednesday, December 13, 2023 3:36 PM bookmarkflaglink

I have read that too. No shortage of hatred to go around.

saying mass killing of Palestinians is not a "genocide" based on rising populations is abhorrent

I heard a comment along those lines last weekend, it was really infuriating

I know. Disgusting.

I don’t think Israel intends to kill most or even a massive percentage of Palestinians, but I do fear ethnic cleansing and that seems like the best term for it. Like making Gaza so uninhabitable that it will seem unconscionable not to allow people to leave. I think it’s a stupid and dangerous fantasy in addition to being horrifically immoral. If the governing coalition changes it’s possible a less right wing government wouldn’t pursue that further, but I worry about Bibi effectively forcing the situation before he’s gone.

I guess Netanyahu's corruption trial has resumed on a part time basis. But it seems pretty toothless.

BREAKING: Exclusive video & images obtained by Al Jazeera show bodies piled up inside the Shadia Abu Ghazala School in Gaza. Witnesses said many sheltering inside were killed EXECUTION-STYLE by Israeli forces including women, children & babies. @AJEnglish https://t.co/YmfdwaqRpF

— Soraya Salam (@sosalam) December 13, 2023

Saw a video of destruction of a cemetery in Palestine. The dead will not rest either.

"The reason people debate "river to the sea" is that *some people* think it's perceived as calling for ethnic cleansing of the population of Israel. According to a WSJ poll, many students do not know what river or sea they are talking about. I've seen videos of people being asked where the current population should go - they don't know, or say "Back to Europe, back to Brooklyn, who cares!""

I don't think some polling or a dumb video of people mouthing nonsense should be used as evidence that people chanting this slogan at marches is any kind of evidence of hate speech.

Ultimately a lot of people are educating themselves about this conflict and learning as they go along.

Anyway, from the little evidence of being at marches people are chanting regardless. I can't what's in everyone's heart when they do so but I'd rather not police that than look at why they are there doing it.

I don't buy the "no solutions" narrative. It's not too far from "These people have been killing each other for thousands of years," which is ahistorical and ignores the present complex reality. (eg "Whaddya gonna do with these people"). There are solutions. But they require recognition of what's actually happening on the ground in order to work toward them. Both-sidesism is unhelpful here because it elides the structure of the conflict.

The precondition for Israel's security is peace. The precondition for peace is a free Palestine. There's no need for - or even prospect of - a "utopian" 1-state solution, or an unworkable 2-state solution. There are plenty of articles around floating the idea of confederation a la the EU, which may seem fanciful but then again the EU itself would have seemed fanciful in 1944. The basic idea being that freedom of movement is guaranteed "from the river to the sea" for both peoples, and there are some common institutions to resolve disputes, but distinct territories remain, and your vote is a vote for representation in your own territory within that confederation.

And no I am not going to be the spokesperson for this particular arrangement, it's just something I've read about, but there are solutions. They have to be worked towards. If there is a "both sides" aspect to this, it's that the process probably involves a little humility and a reckoning with the past - on both sides.

"I know some here have said people should not be upset because really this is a call for a utopian 1-state solution. Ok, that seemed pretty fraught in Algeria, in Egypt, in most other Arab states."

You've had the Israeli embassador saying a two state solution is a no, so that's not on the plate either. This idea of one-state as 'utopia' is playing into the hands of racist settlers who don't want to live alongside Arabs. What's happening in Arabs states is a deflection.

xxp

Saw a video of destruction of a cemetery in Palestine. The dead will not rest either.

My father in law's Lebanese and on the most recent trip back there he wanted to go see the cemetery where his parents were buried. Nothing left of it, courtesy Israeli air strikes.

Xp there is a common Arabic version of the chant that translates as “From water to water, Palestine is Arab”. Oddly enough, it was even used in a recent JVP demonstration.

I don’t care that much about chants at this point. Hamas may want to push the Jews or most Jews out of Israel, but it clearly isn’t going to happen any time soon. Public opinion shifts based on what is happening at the time and what options are on the table. Even Palestinians who today want to drive Jews out might feel differently if a genuinely just solution was on the table. Similarly, a lot of Israelis would be more open to such a solution (and once were) if they weren’t afraid of suicide bombings and rocket attacks and 10/7-type attacks.

I am increasingly interested in the federation idea. I don’t think some form of single state is entirely impossible because to some extent, in imperfect form, there already is one within the 48 borders - 2 million Arab citizens living alongside Jews, sometimes close together, sometimes in separate towns, attending Israeli universities, represented in Israeli government, in some cases even in the IDF although I believe it is non mandatory (and I think more common among Druze and Arab Christians than Muslims).

The messy part is always in who winds up having a majority, who dominates, etc. Jews were able to live semi peacefully in Palestine when they were only 5% of the population. Arab Israelis live semi peacefully as 20% of the population. What happens when it’s 50 50 or 55 45 - this will require very different approaches.

I don’t know if what I think matters - I suspect Israelis and Palestinians are only further from accepting such a solution today.

You've had the Israeli embassador saying a two state solution is a no, so that's not on the plate either. This idea of one-state as 'utopia' is playing into the hands of racist settlers who don't want to live alongside Arabs. What's happening in Arabs states is a deflection.

xxp

― xyzzzz__, Thursday, December 14, 2023 12:42 AM bookmarkflaglink

You'll get no argument here that the settlers are a big problem.

Egypt and Algeria were mentioned as historical examples of ethnic cleansing, not a deflection. Besides Tracer is saying there needs to be a reckoning with the past to find a path forward to peace.

I watched the footage of the Israeli ambassador to the UK too. She did say that. It was a weird clip that seemed cut off midway so I don't know the full context.

I don't presume to translate what they mean. I understand the idea of taking entities at their word, which I have definitely said I do with Hamas. And I've noticed countless times that supposed spokespeople for Israel have said one thing and immediately it was belied by action. That seemed to happen a lot during the negotiations for the last pause.

I would hope this isn't the last word. There is too much death and destruction. Israel can afford to lose zero wars. They are a country the size of New Jersey surrounded by enemies. It seems like a very violent region in general.

There's no context to what the Israeli ambassador said, she's an idiot who was too stupid and unprofessional to avoid saying out loud what the Israeli government really believes. A Mark Regev would have manoeuvred the conversation in the direction he wanted it to go.