Anti-semitism thread: onwards from 2023

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Yes. His poetry and his lectures will be widely read, and others will stop at that quote.

xyzzzz__, Sunday, 10 December 2023 18:38 (six months ago) link

Pound and Eliot are still widely read despite their horrible views on Jewish people so it's possible the work can transcend the person. Maybe not for a while.

I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Sunday, 10 December 2023 18:40 (six months ago) link

Yes or no, calling for the genocide of Jews does not constitute bullying and harassment?


Yes we have no bananas

You almost gotta, hand it to her

Humanitarian Pause (Tracer Hand), Sunday, 10 December 2023 18:42 (six months ago) link

(xpost)
unfortunately when you put something like that out into public it's going to stick


This is true— he wrote a great poem to soldiers of the IDF, “I Am You,” which I think does an interesting job not just of calling out the daily violence faced by Palestinians but also how the conflict hardens every person involved. I think it’s worth thinking about what led him to make such a nasty joke, and that doing so doesn’t necessarily excuse the nastiness.

butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Sunday, 10 December 2023 18:45 (six months ago) link

Pound and Eliot are still widely read despite their horrible views on Jewish people so it's possible the work can transcend the person. Maybe not for a while.


I was at a vigil for him last night in Philly. It was exceptionally moving.

butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Sunday, 10 December 2023 18:46 (six months ago) link

but the clip that got the most traction was predicated on something that (fortunately) I don't really see out there that much: the outright explicit call to harm Jews, or similar

If the predicate is wrong then it costs absolutely nothing to say a call for genocide of Jews would be harassment.

Then you can discuss the predicate.

felicity, Sunday, 10 December 2023 18:49 (six months ago) link

I suppose one question is, "does calling for genocide violate Title VI?" According to Hochul, as of yesterday, yes it does

https://midmichigannow.com/news/nation-world/gov-hochul-to-college-university-presidents-calls-for-genocide-made-on-campus-violate-human-and-civil-rights-laws

Then the follow on question is "what constitutes calling for genocide?" Does using the term 'intifada' mean you are calling for genocide?

I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Sunday, 10 December 2023 18:56 (six months ago) link

Yeah. But blunt force hearings are not sympathetic to nuance. They're not even conducive to follow-up questions. In fact, they're rarely even useful for fact gathering at all. These sorts of hearings mostly exist to let each interlocutor grandstand and score points. It's like the great Mitch Hedberg joke: "The depressing thing about tennis is that no matter how good I get, I'll never be as good as a wall."

Josh in Chicago, Sunday, 10 December 2023 19:01 (six months ago) link

Is chanting "from the river to the sea" advocating for genocide? I think we are in an interesting time.

I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Sunday, 10 December 2023 19:03 (six months ago) link

These sorts of hearings mostly exist to let each interlocutor grandstand and score points.

Right, which is why reading the room is essential.

I explained like the January 6th hearings it's not clear in the beginning where this goes besides getting attention. A lot of people were congused why there were Janaury 6 hearings.

They seem to have issued subpoenas and maybe they will drop it when it becomes a Supreme Court test case like with affirmative action. Who knows.

felicity, Sunday, 10 December 2023 19:16 (six months ago) link

one of the invited speakers at the Palestine Writes Literature Festival stooped to the previously unimaginable low of joking about an Israeli baby Hamas had burned in an oven, asking “with or without baking powder?”

---
xpost he was targeted for assassination by the IOF, he didn’t just “die.” Also his entire family was killed.

― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Sunday, 10 December 2023 bookmarkflaglink

Body hasn't been found either, from what I've seen. Any mention of him has that quote of his in the twitter comments, purely deployed as an attempt to stop humanising him.

― xyzzzz__, Sunday, December 10, 2023 1:32 PM (forty-one minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I’ve seen a whole bunch of other tweets reposted including stating that most Jews are evil, mocking the father of a 9 year old hostage, celebrating 10/7 and chastising multiple people for merely expressing sorrow or disapproval at the targeting of civilians.

Did he deserve to die for being hateful? Of course not. Can I understand why a Gazan might become hateful? Sure. But I can also understand why an Israeli might become hateful after 10/7. I ultimately don’t know why he was killed, is there any clear info on that? I had never previously heard of him so I am only going on what I have seen on the internet recently.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 10 December 2023 19:17 (six months ago) link

xpost For a second I was congused by your post and almost reached for a dictionary. ;)

Josh in Chicago, Sunday, 10 December 2023 19:19 (six months ago) link

It's a legal term of art. Congusing, I know.

felicity, Sunday, 10 December 2023 19:20 (six months ago) link

xxp No clear info on why beyond the assumption of a continuous target of doctors, journalists and Palestinian society.

xyzzzz__, Sunday, 10 December 2023 19:23 (six months ago) link

I have a feeling this issue is likely to hit the Supreme Court at some point. When we get to terms that some groups feel are “genocidal” by implication, it’s just not clear to me if it can be considered a violation of Title VI.

I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Sunday, 10 December 2023 19:34 (six months ago) link

And thankfully we can count on this Court to issue the right decision.

Any decision they make is going to piss someone off. There is an argument to be made that people should not be offended by words.

I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Sunday, 10 December 2023 19:38 (six months ago) link

I realize this is getting into the “creepy free speech” area

I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Sunday, 10 December 2023 19:38 (six months ago) link

Opinion To fight antisemitism on campuses, we must restrict speech

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/12/10/university-pennsylvania-president-magill-resigns-antisemitism-speech/

I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Sunday, 10 December 2023 19:43 (six months ago) link

Hasn't Germany outlawed all sorts of Nazi stuff over the years, flags, etc? Has any other country gone that far? Is that too far?

Josh in Chicago, Sunday, 10 December 2023 19:49 (six months ago) link

Yes and I believe other countries have as well but could be wrong. It doesn’t seem to have stopped an insurgent Neo Nazi movement

I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Sunday, 10 December 2023 19:53 (six months ago) link

Likewise, have hate crime laws stopped hateful acts? Or is the point of the law to punish and not deter? I dunno!

I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Sunday, 10 December 2023 19:59 (six months ago) link

The German laws did a good job of keeping everyone they rehired in the military and security apparatus post-war from slipping and getting them bad press.

papal hotwife (milo z), Sunday, 10 December 2023 20:03 (six months ago) link

Hasn't Germany outlawed all sorts of Nazi stuff over the years, flags, etc? Has any other country gone that far? Is that too far?

― Josh in Chicago, Sunday, December 10, 2023 11:49 AM bookmarkflaglink

There's an influential Internet law case, Yahoo! Inc. v. La Ligue Contre Le Racisme et l'antisémitisme (LICRA), 433 F.3d 1199 (9th Cir. 2006), about the conflict of French law with the First Amendment in the U.S.

Yahoo! was ordered to comply with an order from a French court prohibiting the sale of Nazi memorabilia the the effect they were available to internet buyers in France, even though the advertisement was permitted in the US under the FIrst Amendment..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LICRA_v._Yahoo!

The Wikipedia article goes over some of the restrictions in France criminalizing Nazi displays.

Article R645-1 of the French Criminal Code prohibits to "wear or exhibit" in public uniforms, insignias and emblems which "recall those used" by

an organisation declared illegal in application of Art. 9 of the Nuremberg Charter, or by
a person found guilty of crimes against humanity as defined by Arts. L211-1 to L212-3 or by the Law № 64-1326 of 1964-12-26.
Display is allowed for the purposes of films, theatrical productions and historical exhibitions.

In 2011 the fashion designer John Galliano was tried in France for violation of some criminal code. I don't know the citation other than some vague reference in news articles to laws making the expression of antisemitic ideas illegal.

felicity, Sunday, 10 December 2023 21:46 (six months ago) link

Just a note that this also cuts both ways— what about students for whom the flag of Israel represents their relatives being displaced and slaughtered?

butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Sunday, 10 December 2023 21:50 (six months ago) link

or not even just students, people

butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Sunday, 10 December 2023 21:51 (six months ago) link

I'll note that the University of Missouri decided this wasn't a Title VI violation :

https://www.riverfronttimes.com/news/mizzou-will-not-to-punish-student-over-viral-racist-comment-39258907

I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Sunday, 10 December 2023 21:55 (six months ago) link

Ok yeah - injecting "what about Israel" - aren't you conflating things in just the way just discussed?

felicity, Sunday, 10 December 2023 21:57 (six months ago) link

(xpost) or rather, under the first amendment. I'm not sure why there wasn't a Title VI complaint

I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Sunday, 10 December 2023 21:58 (six months ago) link

table, I was responding to Josh's question about other countries.

Why the need to whatabout and "both ways" every single time - this is the antisemitism thread.

I thought we agreed that forcing Jewish people to discuss Israel every time they want to discuss other topics of antisemitism is kind of offensive.

felicity, Sunday, 10 December 2023 22:07 (six months ago) link

https://aaup-penn.org/statement-of-the-aaup-penn-executive-committee-on-the-resignation-of-president-magill/

In recent months, trustees, donors, lobbying organizations, and members of Congress have repeatedly misrepresented the words and deeds of Penn faculty and students who have expressed concern for Palestinian civilians and criticized the war in Gaza, going so far as to suggest that faculty who have publicly condemned Hamas were Hamas supporters and that groups protesting genocide were calling for genocide. These distortions and attacks on our colleagues have not addressed the scourge of antisemitism—a real and grave problem. Instead, they have threatened the ability of faculty and students to research, teach, study, and publicly discuss the history, politics, and cultures of Israel and Palestine. These attacks strike at the heart of the mission of an educational institution: to foster open, critical, and rigorous research and teaching that can produce knowledge for the public good in a democratic society.

The ability of donors, lobbying groups, and members of Congress to destabilize the University of Pennsylvania reveals the need to restore a strong faculty voice in the governance of the institution. The next president must defend the principles of shared governance and academic freedom, which protect the educational mission of the university. And they must correct what has become a dangerous myth suggesting that the defense of academic freedom and open expression is in any way contradictory to the fight against antisemitism. We intend to see that Penn’s next president lives up to this responsibility.

Previous statements:

https://aaup-penn.org/statement-on-threats-to-academic-freedom-university-governance-and-safety-at-the-university-of-pennsylvania/ (10/28)

https://aaup-penn.org/aaup-penn-letter-on-targeted-harassment/ (11/20)

https://aaup-penn.org/urgent-message-mec-11-28-film-screening-and-further-threats-to-academic-freedom/ (11/28)

https://aaup-penn.org/aaup-penn-statement-on-dec-5-congressional-hearing/ (12/6)

Tahuti Watches L&O:SVU Reruns Without His Ape (unperson), Sunday, 10 December 2023 22:57 (six months ago) link

felicity, I am merely responding to things mentioned in the thread around free speech, hateful rhetoric, and symbols.

I could have used a better example— there are plenty of people who live in the US who consider our flag a hate symbol, myself among them.

What I am trying to get at is that banning or bringing into the legal spectrum certain words, symbols, and bits of language that specific communities rightly find offensive and hateful is an ultimately difficult thing to do without privileging certain populations over others, which can lead to negative consequences for all involved.

butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Sunday, 10 December 2023 23:01 (six months ago) link

Your own links say the AAUP agrees that Penn has not secured a safe campus for Palestinian, Arab, Jewish, or Muslim faculty or students.

In fact, as AAUP-Penn has documented, university policies have exhibited a pattern of discrimination against faculty and students—including Jewish members of our community—who have articulated criticisms of Israeli government policies or of the current war. While offering free, enhanced security to some Jewish institutions, faculty, and students on campus, the university administration has failed to defend the safety and academic freedom of faculty and students who have voiced concern for Palestinian civilians. These include Palestinian, Arab, and Muslim members of our community, Jewish students in Penn Chavurah, and faculty from other religious, national, and ethnic backgrounds.

felicity, Sunday, 10 December 2023 23:15 (six months ago) link

I could have used a better example— there are plenty of people who live in the US who consider our flag a hate symbol, myself among them.

Sure, why don't you try that. The US national anthem is literally about bombs and rockets.

felicity, Sunday, 10 December 2023 23:19 (six months ago) link

The more I've dug into UPenn, the more aghast I am, but about things that don't seem to have been a major issue this time. this Amy Wax person, for instance, who is in the law school who an outright white supremicist, who also invites Neo Nazi Jared Taylor to give guest lectures. She has not been fired. I'd rather Magill get shitcanned for allowing Wax to be on faculty though I guess she's provided some kind of union protection? Why isn't there a Title VI complaint about her?

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2022/4/18/kiros-amy-wax/

I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Sunday, 10 December 2023 23:36 (six months ago) link

Students saying 'intifada' seems like small potatoes compared to a law professor who keeps bringing a Nazi in to teach her classes.

I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Sunday, 10 December 2023 23:37 (six months ago) link

Amy Wax seems abhorrent. Just can we not create these false either/or dichotomies.

There are a lot of lurid details on these campus probes - I think they are up to 15. Of course I am suspicious because they seem to be covered primarily by right wing media like NY Post and Fox. So I refrain from bringing them all up.

I'm not aware there aren't complaints about Wax. Someone would have to file it. The complainant might want to be anonymous because of retaliation.

felicity, Sunday, 10 December 2023 23:48 (six months ago) link

I think that what some people are trying to say, felicity— and I mean this with respect— is that *we* aren't the ones who are creating these dichotomies. The institutions are, and these injustices are all linked, so bringing in other instances isn't meant as diminishment, I don't think, but rather trying to hold institutions accountable across the board. Whether this is the thread for that is up for debate, but again, that isn't for me to decide.

butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Sunday, 10 December 2023 23:54 (six months ago) link

I think people might be confused about Magill's administrative role versus academic tenure. Removal as President does not mean she is "shitcanned." Mcgill still has tenure at the law school.

It sounds like there are complaints about Wax but response is slow. Some of the Title VI turnaround time from the federal government was 4+ years. Maybe they are moving faster now.

felicity, Sunday, 10 December 2023 23:58 (six months ago) link

*we* aren't the ones who are creating these dichotomies.

That's fine if you mean a we= everyone.

Rather than a "we versus Jewish people," which is how it feels when you repeatedly shove "Israel slaughter" in the middle of other topics being discussed by Jewish posters.

If you could stop that, at least on the antisemitism thread, that would be great. If you want to start another thread or even board about the wider topic that would be great.

What's annoying too is people coming along and creating dichotomies or hierarchies of privilege and being like "who did this??!!" Super annoying especially to get lectures on privilege from white men. I thought you felt it was infantilizing to assign virtue based on identity, anyway.

felicity, Monday, 11 December 2023 00:08 (six months ago) link

yes I agree with table. I think university administrations should be held accountable for harassment that happens on their campuses if it crosses the threshold of acceptable behavior. I don't love administrators in education; I think they get paid too much to the detriment of professors and adjuncts. At the same time I don't envy their roles that much, given the accountability they have to face. I'm not crying over Magill losing this role specifically; I didn't go to UPenn, my kid isn't going there, and I only know one person who teaches there, but I am concerned that she's having to step down over a situation that seems less dire than the Amy Wax situation, frankly (though admittedly I also don't know how Wax's tenure and contract protects her).

I think it's important to differentiate clear offenses (someone telling a jewish student 'this is all your fault' or telling them they should be gassed) versus nebulous ones (the Palestine Writes festival, students and teachers saying "from the river to the sea"). If there is a preponderance of the former that went unaddressed, then she absolutely should have resigned, and the university better get specific about what violates the code of conduct or not. If they adopt the NY standard that Hochul wants--that calling for genocide violates Title VI--they'd better be clear what 'calling for genocide' means. If it means saying "from the river to the sea" then I think we are in dangerous waters (forgive the sea pun).

I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Monday, 11 December 2023 00:08 (six months ago) link

I personally don't feel I know enough about the facts to draw any ultimate conclusions. What I saw indicates a duty to investigate under the law.

felicity, Monday, 11 December 2023 00:16 (six months ago) link

The Wapo opinion piece from the person in UPenn's Open Expression Committee is clear that words like "intifada" and "from the river to the sea" are antisemitic calls for genocide, and need to be restricted. It makes me wonder if there are any pro-palestinian statements that can be made that would not be defined as antisemitic under these rules. The irony is that there is an actual genocide underway, which is why these statements are being made in the first place.

I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Monday, 11 December 2023 00:48 (six months ago) link

Notwithstanding my feeling about the term "intifada," I in no way support the witch hunt against these U. presidents

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 11 December 2023 01:04 (six months ago) link

Prof. Finklestein's WaPo piece didnt refer to to any rules. It's her opinion.

I'd say your paraphrase misreads it a bit.

With or without the First Amendment, calls for genocide against Jews — or even proxies for such sentiments, such as calling for intifada against Jews or the elimination of Israel by chanting “from the river to the sea” — are, in the present context, calls for violence against a discrete ethnic or religious group. Such speech arguably incites violence, frequently inspires harassment of Jewish students and, without question, creates a hostile environment that can impair the equal educational opportunities of Jewish students.

While it sounds unreasonable to you reading about it online, I would give some deference to Prof. Finklestein being on Penn campus. She seems to have some insight into the coding of words and how they are taken as threatening or not, and to whom.

Man alive explained how this in understood with knowledge of the conflict. Do you feel the need to center your own perception over those who are arguably closer to the facts or more affected?

With another racial minority or sex would you say, well I'm not threatened by X, therefore X is not harassing?

We don't have to agree. I dont see it as a witch hunt against presidents. I have worked on civil rights cases. I want to see if there is harassment or discrimination.

felicity, Monday, 11 December 2023 01:13 (six months ago) link

xp to akm

felicity, Monday, 11 December 2023 01:15 (six months ago) link

Btw The Amy Wax situation has been going on since 2017. Magill became President in July 2022.

Beyond Goo and Evol (President Keyes), Monday, 11 December 2023 01:51 (six months ago) link

That's atrociously slow.

felicity, Monday, 11 December 2023 02:07 (six months ago) link

With another racial minority or sex would you say, well I'm not threatened by X, therefore X is not harassing?

I think it would depend on what X was. By this criteria, anyone could make up any situation, say it's threatening, and you'd have to take their word for it, which I don't think is a good thing to do.

I'm struggling to think of another real scenario where a statement is being interpreted as a proxy for a genocidal or even racist/bigoted belief and is making people uncomfortable enough that they they feel unsafe (i'm sure there are a million, but I can't think of any right now). The closest thing I can think of is the display of confederate flags. If a black student said they were made uncomfortable by this, obviously I wouldn't question it, because it's been thoroughly debated in culture, and confederate advocates have lost their argument that the flag stands primarily as a 'symbol of heritage' and not a proxy for a racist system.

For this particular issue, the reason I have a hard time believing that the statement 'from the river to the sea' MUST be accepted as a proxy for advocating genocide is that the Likud party uses essentially the same phrase.

I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Monday, 11 December 2023 02:44 (six months ago) link

such as calling for intifada against Jews or the elimination of Israel by chanting “from the river to the sea”

This is an abuse of language in incredibly bad faith.

papal hotwife (milo z), Monday, 11 December 2023 02:49 (six months ago) link


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