Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

James Denselow
@jamesdenselow
It is with profound sadness we confirm that a staff member of Save the Children and his family have been killed by an Israeli airstrike in Gaza.

Sameh Ewaida, 39, was the proud father of four children – Mohammad (12), Heba (11), Zeina (3), and Zein (2)

From the minister of Communications in Israel (Likud party):
http://cdn.bsky.app/img/feed_fullsize/plain/did%3Aplc%3At46sqvutibvsmjgwn6r6izve/bafkreihc36srli4hmyupf7jscmjkqqybz3zywvjff63v347v74gt37cwpu@jpeg

akm, can you link to that tweet? I want to post it.

I got it off bluesky where Yashar Ali reposted it, so you might want to check his twitter/x account

here's the bsky link, no idea if this works for non-users

https://bsky.app/profile/yasharali.bsky.social/post/3kgeyopzurl2z

here's the Nitter post

https://nitter.net/shlomo_karhi/status/1734631075043778670#m

Jeremy Scahill?! There's a name I haven't seen in a while.

I mean that's kind of been the policy platform of Likkud for a while now (no Palestinian state, Oslo failed, no partner for peace, etc.), so it's not surprising.

Yeah good point

Israel has been attacking Jenin refugee camp in the occupied West Bank for over 30 hours, destroying infrastructure, demolishing houses & murdering Palestinians. pic.twitter.com/AyrpYaXZ3n

— Saul Staniforth (@SaulStaniforth) December 13, 2023

More war crimes.

Six weeks ago I posted that annexation was seeming more-and-more like the only possible endgame here. Thoughts about that now?

I haven't been posting as much on the topic because the feeling is increasingly feeling like I'm screaming at a forest fire. I march every weekend and don't know what else to do

I’ve thought that from the beginning, I mean you have elements in the government actively saying it, and their actions so far are not inconsistent with replanting Gaza with settlements.

No idea but I’ve never felt the term genocide fit as well as ethnic cleansing. It reminds me very much of the Balkans.

Everything emerging is just increasingly horrific. Don’t even know what to say.

I’ve never felt the term genocide fit as well as ethnic cleansing.

Had this same thought the other day. And yeah, it really seems like they're increasingly mask-off about their intention to simply take over Gaza (and possibly the West Bank, since they're now attacking there, too).

What are the differences between those two terms?

What are the differences between those two terms?

_I’ve never felt the term genocide fit as well as ethnic cleansing._

Had this same thought the other day. And yeah, it really seems like they're increasingly mask-off about their intention to simply take over Gaza (and possibly the West Bank, since they're now attacking there, too).

thanks, gyac, I hadn't encountered that distinction before

idk if the distinctions are so easy to make in practice but the biggest issue with genocide as a concept is that it hinges on the intent of the perpetrators - it should be enough that mass murder is happening but it seems the g word is necessary to provoke a certain level of outrage from the international community - so you often have to make assumptions about what perpetrators are trying to achieve

(also if the original formulation of the genocide concept was consistently taken seriously many currently highly controversial claims of genocide would be much less so but the meaning has drifted)

It's enough that mass murder is happening.

For me, pushing 'genocide' is more to do with this sounding worse than ethnic cleansing, and that the urgency would push more people to march. And maybe more action.

As it is rn this is all a scream into the void.

it’s not but it’s terribly “why not both?”

There can be individual acts of genocide or genocidal acts without ripening into what people might accept as a full genocide, just like people can make individual racist or antisemitic statements and still not "be" antisemites or racists.

Going by intent, 10/7 included deliberate acts of genocide. The Hamas Charter states genocidal intent. There is a lot of gaslighting about whether the perpetrators of 10/7 were targeting military targets only.

Also saying mass killing of Palestinians is not a "genocide" based on rising populations is abhorrent.

The reason people debate "river to the sea" is that *some people* think it's perceived as calling for ethnic cleansing of the population of Israel. According to a WSJ poll, many students do not know what river or sea they are talking about. I've seen videos of people being asked where the current population should go - they don't know, or say "Back to Europe, back to Brooklyn, who cares!"

I know some here have said people should not be upset because really this is a call for a utopian 1-state solution. Ok, that seemed pretty fraught in Algeria, in Egypt, in most other Arab states.

I have been thinking about this idea that killing large portions of a population only creates terrorists. Perhaps that explains why some view Israel as a terrorist country. Who created that - the UN? No solutions here, just it's an extremely sad situation.

I should clarify upthread for “Why distinguish” is that when eventually the bombardment stops, Gaza will be largely uninhabitable. The majority of Palestinians will still be alive, but they won’t have a home to return to. That’s the goal of ethnic cleansing and why I specifically distinguished. Not to minimise anything that’s happening.

The reason people debate "river to the sea" is that *some people* think it's perceived as calling for ethnic cleansing of the population of Israel. According to a WSJ poll, many students do not know what river or sea they are talking about. I've seen videos of people being asked where the current population should go - they don't know, or say "Back to Europe, back to Brooklyn, who cares!"

Whereas those Israelis who believe the Jewish state should be from the river to the sea know exactly where the Palestinians should go.

"Free Palestine" has also been tone policed like this too. It's an attempt to silence pro-Palestinian movements in the two months since 10/7. Its reactionary politics.

. And also that Free Palestine has been weaponized and attacked in the UK.
Right, like I said no solutions, just sadness. And a bit of skeptism that UN meddling has ever done anything but bring death and bloodinesd to the area.

I think there is bit of a culture clash when discussing protest on the internet that makes context opaque. The US accords peaceful protest the highest level of protection under the First Amendment. That tolerance is theoretically the price of livung in a democracy. I accept UK accounts that large scale protests have been peaceful.

That's a bit different from blockading students fom using libraries or intimidating students of certain religions for practicing their faith.

I heard whether this is restriction on free speech or harassment depends on context.

Whereas those Israelis who believe the Jewish state should be from the river to the sea know exactly where the Palestinians should go.

― Free Ass Ange (Tom D.), Wednesday, December 13, 2023 3:36 PM bookmarkflaglink

I have read that too. No shortage of hatred to go around.

saying mass killing of Palestinians is not a "genocide" based on rising populations is abhorrent

I heard a comment along those lines last weekend, it was really infuriating

I know. Disgusting.

I don’t think Israel intends to kill most or even a massive percentage of Palestinians, but I do fear ethnic cleansing and that seems like the best term for it. Like making Gaza so uninhabitable that it will seem unconscionable not to allow people to leave. I think it’s a stupid and dangerous fantasy in addition to being horrifically immoral. If the governing coalition changes it’s possible a less right wing government wouldn’t pursue that further, but I worry about Bibi effectively forcing the situation before he’s gone.

I guess Netanyahu's corruption trial has resumed on a part time basis. But it seems pretty toothless.

BREAKING: Exclusive video & images obtained by Al Jazeera show bodies piled up inside the Shadia Abu Ghazala School in Gaza. Witnesses said many sheltering inside were killed EXECUTION-STYLE by Israeli forces including women, children & babies. @AJEnglish https://t.co/YmfdwaqRpF

— Soraya Salam (@sosalam) December 13, 2023

Saw a video of destruction of a cemetery in Palestine. The dead will not rest either.

"The reason people debate "river to the sea" is that *some people* think it's perceived as calling for ethnic cleansing of the population of Israel. According to a WSJ poll, many students do not know what river or sea they are talking about. I've seen videos of people being asked where the current population should go - they don't know, or say "Back to Europe, back to Brooklyn, who cares!""

I don't think some polling or a dumb video of people mouthing nonsense should be used as evidence that people chanting this slogan at marches is any kind of evidence of hate speech.

Ultimately a lot of people are educating themselves about this conflict and learning as they go along.

Anyway, from the little evidence of being at marches people are chanting regardless. I can't what's in everyone's heart when they do so but I'd rather not police that than look at why they are there doing it.

I don't buy the "no solutions" narrative. It's not too far from "These people have been killing each other for thousands of years," which is ahistorical and ignores the present complex reality. (eg "Whaddya gonna do with these people"). There are solutions. But they require recognition of what's actually happening on the ground in order to work toward them. Both-sidesism is unhelpful here because it elides the structure of the conflict.

The precondition for Israel's security is peace. The precondition for peace is a free Palestine. There's no need for - or even prospect of - a "utopian" 1-state solution, or an unworkable 2-state solution. There are plenty of articles around floating the idea of confederation a la the EU, which may seem fanciful but then again the EU itself would have seemed fanciful in 1944. The basic idea being that freedom of movement is guaranteed "from the river to the sea" for both peoples, and there are some common institutions to resolve disputes, but distinct territories remain, and your vote is a vote for representation in your own territory within that confederation.

And no I am not going to be the spokesperson for this particular arrangement, it's just something I've read about, but there are solutions. They have to be worked towards. If there is a "both sides" aspect to this, it's that the process probably involves a little humility and a reckoning with the past - on both sides.

"I know some here have said people should not be upset because really this is a call for a utopian 1-state solution. Ok, that seemed pretty fraught in Algeria, in Egypt, in most other Arab states."

You've had the Israeli embassador saying a two state solution is a no, so that's not on the plate either. This idea of one-state as 'utopia' is playing into the hands of racist settlers who don't want to live alongside Arabs. What's happening in Arabs states is a deflection.

xxp

Saw a video of destruction of a cemetery in Palestine. The dead will not rest either.

My father in law's Lebanese and on the most recent trip back there he wanted to go see the cemetery where his parents were buried. Nothing left of it, courtesy Israeli air strikes.

Xp there is a common Arabic version of the chant that translates as “From water to water, Palestine is Arab”. Oddly enough, it was even used in a recent JVP demonstration.

I don’t care that much about chants at this point. Hamas may want to push the Jews or most Jews out of Israel, but it clearly isn’t going to happen any time soon. Public opinion shifts based on what is happening at the time and what options are on the table. Even Palestinians who today want to drive Jews out might feel differently if a genuinely just solution was on the table. Similarly, a lot of Israelis would be more open to such a solution (and once were) if they weren’t afraid of suicide bombings and rocket attacks and 10/7-type attacks.

I am increasingly interested in the federation idea. I don’t think some form of single state is entirely impossible because to some extent, in imperfect form, there already is one within the 48 borders - 2 million Arab citizens living alongside Jews, sometimes close together, sometimes in separate towns, attending Israeli universities, represented in Israeli government, in some cases even in the IDF although I believe it is non mandatory (and I think more common among Druze and Arab Christians than Muslims).

The messy part is always in who winds up having a majority, who dominates, etc. Jews were able to live semi peacefully in Palestine when they were only 5% of the population. Arab Israelis live semi peacefully as 20% of the population. What happens when it’s 50 50 or 55 45 - this will require very different approaches.

I don’t know if what I think matters - I suspect Israelis and Palestinians are only further from accepting such a solution today.

You've had the Israeli embassador saying a two state solution is a no, so that's not on the plate either. This idea of one-state as 'utopia' is playing into the hands of racist settlers who don't want to live alongside Arabs. What's happening in Arabs states is a deflection.

xxp

― xyzzzz__, Thursday, December 14, 2023 12:42 AM bookmarkflaglink

You'll get no argument here that the settlers are a big problem.

Egypt and Algeria were mentioned as historical examples of ethnic cleansing, not a deflection. Besides Tracer is saying there needs to be a reckoning with the past to find a path forward to peace.

I watched the footage of the Israeli ambassador to the UK too. She did say that. It was a weird clip that seemed cut off midway so I don't know the full context.

I don't presume to translate what they mean. I understand the idea of taking entities at their word, which I have definitely said I do with Hamas. And I've noticed countless times that supposed spokespeople for Israel have said one thing and immediately it was belied by action. That seemed to happen a lot during the negotiations for the last pause.

I would hope this isn't the last word. There is too much death and destruction. Israel can afford to lose zero wars. They are a country the size of New Jersey surrounded by enemies. It seems like a very violent region in general.

There's no context to what the Israeli ambassador said, she's an idiot who was too stupid and unprofessional to avoid saying out loud what the Israeli government really believes. A Mark Regev would have manoeuvred the conversation in the direction he wanted it to go.

They are a country the size of New Jersey surrounded by enemies. It seems like a very violent region in general.

They are a country the size of New Jersey surrounded by enemies.

In the 70s for sure, but today? I'd got the impression this is a lot less true than it used to be. But I'm not all that clear on if anything is actually changing in terms of relations with surrounding states since 10/7. Saudi has paused normalization but I'd assumed that was just for show on Saudi's part. In the wider area Azerbaijan and Israel are continuing to strengthen ties regardless. It seems like Iran is Israels only real enemy in the modern era, as far as states go

Possibly, Israel has been making peace one by one with Egypt, Jordan and was about to move forward in peace talks with Saudi Arabia. Hezbollah seems to want to open a northen front. So it doesn't seem especially stable.

The Azerbaijan/Armenia situation is one where the New York Times covered how a decades old conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh just suddenly ended through brute force. Hundred thousand+ ethnic Armenians just left the area.

There had been chilling stories of previously peaceful neighbor turning on neighbor after the fall of the Soviet Union. And then how a new wave of violence against the Armenians was kicked off by an Azerbaihani guy hacking an Armenian guy to death with an axe at a NATO training in Hungary, which was sort of silently condoned by the government.

I didn't know if Israel had entered into a formal allyship with Azerbaijan. It was reported that Israel sold them weapons.

One could also read Orientalism and get a good idea of it, too.

I've seen Said mentioned quite a lot and I do mean to read it. Thanks for the reminder.

Azerbaihani guy hacking an Armenian guy to death with an axe at a NATO training in Hungary, which was sort of silently condoned by the government

If I remember correctly he was returned to Baku after something like 8 years in prison and is now a govt official, but thats off top of head may be wtong

As to Hezbollah, I see that as more or less an extension of Iran. Yes, its more capable than Lebanon's actual military, but that isn't saying much. I think Israel's only real enemies are Iran, and orgs utilized by Iran.

I'm reading Said's memoir Out of Place, which has proven instructive.

I think Israel's only real enemies are Iran, and orgs utilized by Iran.

I think this is true, at least on paper, but in practice this is where the conflation of Israel with Judaism comes into play. Yeah, "Israel" may not have any explicit regional enemies, with whom it maintains at least a cold peace, but I'm not sure how tolerant many of those countries would be of the Jewish population of Israel, many of whom are in Israel because they were expelled/"cleansed" from those countries. It's kind of a paradox: countries with no Jews getting along with Israel, which is full of Jews from those countries with no Jews because those countries kicked out its Jews, which in part is why Israel exists at all.