Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

I know. Disgusting.

I don’t think Israel intends to kill most or even a massive percentage of Palestinians, but I do fear ethnic cleansing and that seems like the best term for it. Like making Gaza so uninhabitable that it will seem unconscionable not to allow people to leave. I think it’s a stupid and dangerous fantasy in addition to being horrifically immoral. If the governing coalition changes it’s possible a less right wing government wouldn’t pursue that further, but I worry about Bibi effectively forcing the situation before he’s gone.

I guess Netanyahu's corruption trial has resumed on a part time basis. But it seems pretty toothless.

BREAKING: Exclusive video & images obtained by Al Jazeera show bodies piled up inside the Shadia Abu Ghazala School in Gaza. Witnesses said many sheltering inside were killed EXECUTION-STYLE by Israeli forces including women, children & babies. @AJEnglish https://t.co/YmfdwaqRpF

— Soraya Salam (@sosalam) December 13, 2023

Saw a video of destruction of a cemetery in Palestine. The dead will not rest either.

"The reason people debate "river to the sea" is that *some people* think it's perceived as calling for ethnic cleansing of the population of Israel. According to a WSJ poll, many students do not know what river or sea they are talking about. I've seen videos of people being asked where the current population should go - they don't know, or say "Back to Europe, back to Brooklyn, who cares!""

I don't think some polling or a dumb video of people mouthing nonsense should be used as evidence that people chanting this slogan at marches is any kind of evidence of hate speech.

Ultimately a lot of people are educating themselves about this conflict and learning as they go along.

Anyway, from the little evidence of being at marches people are chanting regardless. I can't what's in everyone's heart when they do so but I'd rather not police that than look at why they are there doing it.

I don't buy the "no solutions" narrative. It's not too far from "These people have been killing each other for thousands of years," which is ahistorical and ignores the present complex reality. (eg "Whaddya gonna do with these people"). There are solutions. But they require recognition of what's actually happening on the ground in order to work toward them. Both-sidesism is unhelpful here because it elides the structure of the conflict.

The precondition for Israel's security is peace. The precondition for peace is a free Palestine. There's no need for - or even prospect of - a "utopian" 1-state solution, or an unworkable 2-state solution. There are plenty of articles around floating the idea of confederation a la the EU, which may seem fanciful but then again the EU itself would have seemed fanciful in 1944. The basic idea being that freedom of movement is guaranteed "from the river to the sea" for both peoples, and there are some common institutions to resolve disputes, but distinct territories remain, and your vote is a vote for representation in your own territory within that confederation.

And no I am not going to be the spokesperson for this particular arrangement, it's just something I've read about, but there are solutions. They have to be worked towards. If there is a "both sides" aspect to this, it's that the process probably involves a little humility and a reckoning with the past - on both sides.

"I know some here have said people should not be upset because really this is a call for a utopian 1-state solution. Ok, that seemed pretty fraught in Algeria, in Egypt, in most other Arab states."

You've had the Israeli embassador saying a two state solution is a no, so that's not on the plate either. This idea of one-state as 'utopia' is playing into the hands of racist settlers who don't want to live alongside Arabs. What's happening in Arabs states is a deflection.

xxp

Saw a video of destruction of a cemetery in Palestine. The dead will not rest either.

My father in law's Lebanese and on the most recent trip back there he wanted to go see the cemetery where his parents were buried. Nothing left of it, courtesy Israeli air strikes.

Xp there is a common Arabic version of the chant that translates as “From water to water, Palestine is Arab”. Oddly enough, it was even used in a recent JVP demonstration.

I don’t care that much about chants at this point. Hamas may want to push the Jews or most Jews out of Israel, but it clearly isn’t going to happen any time soon. Public opinion shifts based on what is happening at the time and what options are on the table. Even Palestinians who today want to drive Jews out might feel differently if a genuinely just solution was on the table. Similarly, a lot of Israelis would be more open to such a solution (and once were) if they weren’t afraid of suicide bombings and rocket attacks and 10/7-type attacks.

I am increasingly interested in the federation idea. I don’t think some form of single state is entirely impossible because to some extent, in imperfect form, there already is one within the 48 borders - 2 million Arab citizens living alongside Jews, sometimes close together, sometimes in separate towns, attending Israeli universities, represented in Israeli government, in some cases even in the IDF although I believe it is non mandatory (and I think more common among Druze and Arab Christians than Muslims).

The messy part is always in who winds up having a majority, who dominates, etc. Jews were able to live semi peacefully in Palestine when they were only 5% of the population. Arab Israelis live semi peacefully as 20% of the population. What happens when it’s 50 50 or 55 45 - this will require very different approaches.

I don’t know if what I think matters - I suspect Israelis and Palestinians are only further from accepting such a solution today.

You've had the Israeli embassador saying a two state solution is a no, so that's not on the plate either. This idea of one-state as 'utopia' is playing into the hands of racist settlers who don't want to live alongside Arabs. What's happening in Arabs states is a deflection.

xxp

― xyzzzz__, Thursday, December 14, 2023 12:42 AM bookmarkflaglink

You'll get no argument here that the settlers are a big problem.

Egypt and Algeria were mentioned as historical examples of ethnic cleansing, not a deflection. Besides Tracer is saying there needs to be a reckoning with the past to find a path forward to peace.

I watched the footage of the Israeli ambassador to the UK too. She did say that. It was a weird clip that seemed cut off midway so I don't know the full context.

I don't presume to translate what they mean. I understand the idea of taking entities at their word, which I have definitely said I do with Hamas. And I've noticed countless times that supposed spokespeople for Israel have said one thing and immediately it was belied by action. That seemed to happen a lot during the negotiations for the last pause.

I would hope this isn't the last word. There is too much death and destruction. Israel can afford to lose zero wars. They are a country the size of New Jersey surrounded by enemies. It seems like a very violent region in general.

There's no context to what the Israeli ambassador said, she's an idiot who was too stupid and unprofessional to avoid saying out loud what the Israeli government really believes. A Mark Regev would have manoeuvred the conversation in the direction he wanted it to go.

They are a country the size of New Jersey surrounded by enemies. It seems like a very violent region in general.

They are a country the size of New Jersey surrounded by enemies.

In the 70s for sure, but today? I'd got the impression this is a lot less true than it used to be. But I'm not all that clear on if anything is actually changing in terms of relations with surrounding states since 10/7. Saudi has paused normalization but I'd assumed that was just for show on Saudi's part. In the wider area Azerbaijan and Israel are continuing to strengthen ties regardless. It seems like Iran is Israels only real enemy in the modern era, as far as states go

Possibly, Israel has been making peace one by one with Egypt, Jordan and was about to move forward in peace talks with Saudi Arabia. Hezbollah seems to want to open a northen front. So it doesn't seem especially stable.

The Azerbaijan/Armenia situation is one where the New York Times covered how a decades old conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh just suddenly ended through brute force. Hundred thousand+ ethnic Armenians just left the area.

There had been chilling stories of previously peaceful neighbor turning on neighbor after the fall of the Soviet Union. And then how a new wave of violence against the Armenians was kicked off by an Azerbaihani guy hacking an Armenian guy to death with an axe at a NATO training in Hungary, which was sort of silently condoned by the government.

I didn't know if Israel had entered into a formal allyship with Azerbaijan. It was reported that Israel sold them weapons.

One could also read Orientalism and get a good idea of it, too.

I've seen Said mentioned quite a lot and I do mean to read it. Thanks for the reminder.

Azerbaihani guy hacking an Armenian guy to death with an axe at a NATO training in Hungary, which was sort of silently condoned by the government

If I remember correctly he was returned to Baku after something like 8 years in prison and is now a govt official, but thats off top of head may be wtong

As to Hezbollah, I see that as more or less an extension of Iran. Yes, its more capable than Lebanon's actual military, but that isn't saying much. I think Israel's only real enemies are Iran, and orgs utilized by Iran.

I'm reading Said's memoir Out of Place, which has proven instructive.

I think Israel's only real enemies are Iran, and orgs utilized by Iran.

I think this is true, at least on paper, but in practice this is where the conflation of Israel with Judaism comes into play. Yeah, "Israel" may not have any explicit regional enemies, with whom it maintains at least a cold peace, but I'm not sure how tolerant many of those countries would be of the Jewish population of Israel, many of whom are in Israel because they were expelled/"cleansed" from those countries. It's kind of a paradox: countries with no Jews getting along with Israel, which is full of Jews from those countries with no Jews because those countries kicked out its Jews, which in part is why Israel exists at all.

Of course! No disagreement there, I'm just talking at a state level. The tolerance for Jewish people in nearby countries isn't so good. The tolerance for Palestinians in nearby countries isn't too good either!

Throwing up hands and saying “the region is violent” distorts histories of colonialism and conquest that have created many of the current dynamics in the region.
― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Thursday, December 14, 2023 9:03 AM (four hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Well, isn't that pretty much the entire history of the region? I know Sykes-Picot caused problems, but it didn't happen in a vacuum, it happened in the wake of the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire, which kept relative peace among disparate groups (most of the time). Part of the reason Israel was so opposed by the surrounding Arab states was that it was seen as part of a Western thwarting of a new pan-Arab or pan-Islamic empire/superstate (although it's not clear any such plan ever would have worked without Israel there).

Yeah I’m not really sure that could ever be true, all of the region has various disagreements based on sectarianism/resource wars and political alignment(s). Israel could never exist and those countries will still be fighting over water access in the end.

man alive, of course you’re right, what I am trying to get at is where the violence arrives from, and I don’t think that portraying it as arriving organically from the region is accurate. I don’t think this is what felicity was doing, but I just become nervous whenever entire regions (or ethnicities or religions etc) are termed “violent.”

The existence of secure borders anywhere belies the innate violence everywhere.

right, I don't think there is something uniquely violent about the region. I do think plenty of violence has arisen organically from the region over the last few thousand years, just not uniquely so vs Europe or Asia.

Note taken. Poor word choice on my part.

Worthwhile pod interview with Adam Johnson from CitationsNeeded on Left Anchor, getting into the American media insanity and elected official horseshit lately: https://www.leftanchor.com/e/the-war-on-gaza-iii-298/

Here's those crack commandos we've heard so much about:

The Israel Defense Forces says that three Israeli hostages in Gaza were mistakenly identified as a threat and shot dead.

“During combat in Shejaiya (in northern Gaza), the IDF mistakenly identified three Israeli hostages as a threat. As a result, the troops fired toward them and they were killed,” IDF spokesperson Daniel Hagari said at a briefing Friday.

JFC

Must have trained with the Spetsnaz.

They were probably a threat in that they could have revealed to the press the truth of how they were being treated, in comparison with Israeli government narratives...

I'm sure that protecting the government narrative is uppermost on the minds of the Israeli soldiers on the battlefield in Gaza.

I would not be surprised if more hostages are dead due to indiscriminate bombing.

They were probably a threat in that they could have revealed to the press the truth of how they were being treated, in comparison with Israeli government narratives...

― Tahuti Watches L&O:SVU Reruns Without His Ape (unperson), Friday, December 15, 2023 2:55 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

How do you think they were treated?

Israeli forces severely assault a Palestinian Journalist LIVE on CNN.

"SHOOT ME" the journalist screams.

They go on to punch, strangle, weapon butt, throw him to the floor, kick him in the face, and eventually hospitalise him. pic.twitter.com/TxGrsyzGDY

— Rami Jarrah (@RamiJarrah) December 15, 2023

To people who say this is complex what I'd say is that it's really, really simple

“A house on the beach is not a dream”: An Israeli real estate company specialising in Jewish settlements in the West Bank is planning for the day after. This is beyond aspirational, their staff is already working on plans. pic.twitter.com/YtBJ3VYbgE

— Lana Tatour (@Lana_Tatour) December 15, 2023

I can't swear to it, but I suspect that's trolling. The "plans" show the footprints of the housing overtop of plots labeled "hospital" and "headquarters"

Also, I mean, the image

was going to say, I have a feeling a pro-israel troll made these for a larf, you know, a goof and a spoof.

just a little fun with the actual ethnic cleansing taking place

I also can't find it on their website, or through reverse image search fwiw, but maybe I'm missing it

They were probably a threat in that they could have revealed to the press the truth of how they were being treated, in comparison with Israeli government narratives...

― Tahuti Watches L&O:SVU Reruns Without His Ape (unperson), Friday, December 15, 2023 2:55 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

How do you think they were treated?

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, December 15, 2023 1:32 PM bookmarkflaglink

I was wondering this too.

There is not going to be any ethnic cleansing, at the end of this the Palestinians will still be living in Gaza and the Jews will still be living in Israel, nobody's going anywhere but there has been and will continue to be massive human suffering inflicted by people who persistently refuse to accept this, sorry to be basic

How are they going to live in Gaza when most of the housing and infrastructure has been severely damaged or destroyed?

They will be rebuilt, at tremendous cost, a huge waste that didn't have to happen.

dude I will bet you a doordash order of lobster tails from Outback that Palestinians are not going to be allowed to return to north Gaza at the very least

How can things go back to the way they were? I really don't see it.

breaking my own rule but in coverage of IDF killing 3 hostages I noticed little mention that one was Samer Fouad Talalka, a Bedouin young man who worked in Kibbutz Nir Am hatchery on Oct 7. I bet this horrific outcome had already crossed his mind and I can’t imagine a worse dread

— ‏تمار 🌴 Тама́р 🌴 תמר (@tamars) December 16, 2023

1/3 They killed his entire family. They shot him. They even killed his cameraman. But a day later, none of that stopped Wael Dahdouh from reporting on the funeral procession of his fallen colleague, Samir Abu Daqqa, pic.twitter.com/bCQulVWXDA

— 🍉Steven W. Thrasher, PhD, CPT (@thrasherxy) December 16, 2023