Israel/Palestine post 10/7 - follow-on events/thoughts as relate to other countries

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Good piece by Judith Butler both apologizing for their initial response to 10/7 as well as diagnosing the problems with speech on campuses. Here it is

In a mind-bending twist, those who oppose genocide are, paradoxically, sometimes accused of genocidal intention, as we saw in Republican representative Elise Stefanik’s December 7 public grilling of University of Pennsylvania president Liz Magill and Harvard president Claudine Gay. Her interrogation packed a number of dubious assumptions into the questions—that certain phrases express genocidal intent—rather than considering their place in an emancipation movement. Intifada, generally translated as “uprising” in Arabic, means “to be shaken” or “to shake oneself.” It is understood as a movement that refuses to remain docile in the face of colonial violence, an effort to throw off the shackles of colonial rule. It is also a call for Palestinian unity. Does it necessarily imply genocidal violence? No. Now, some may imagine that the colonized, once freed of their shackles, will turn against the colonizer with vengeful, genocidal intention. But imagining is not prediction. Indeed, that will not happen if a radical decolonization is successful. If the rage of intifada, however, is directed against colonial rule, then decolonization will more likely produce another emotion: emancipatory joy, a sense of freedom, the release from shackles that have only tightened over the seventy-five years of their imposition. One need only ask whether Palestinians would prefer to be killed by non-Jewish actors to see that it is state violence they oppose.

When asked whether Harvard University would condemn calls for Jewish genocide, Gay rightly hesitated, since the question assumed that anyone who called for “intifada” or chanted “from the river to the sea” was expressing genocidal intent or making a concrete threat to obliterate Israeli Jewish life, or Jewish life more broadly. The interrogation should have stopped right there to expose its fugitive assumptions. In the moment of questioning, however, they were consolidated: “intifada” and “from the river to the sea” were, without a pause of reflection, made identical with calling for genocide against the Jews, and calls for liberation were understood as threats of anti-Semitic violence. When the ability to reflect on questionable assumptions is ruled out, the trap is set. The terrible consequence is that there can be no critique of Israel’s killing machine, no oppositional speech, that is not immediately construed as a call for violence—if not the verbal threat of violence itself. Any president would be right to hesitate before answering such a question, since the interrogator has offered a set of false premises and specious conflations in the form that that question has taken. In the aftermath of Magill’s resignation, president Gay has an ethical decision to make: to stand up to forms of inquisition that conflate resistance to Israeli violence with genocidal intention, to stand up for the rights of protest and dissent, or to become an instrument of censorship and denial. Her stated apology does not bode well. Whatever she finally decides will set a consequential precedent for both academic freedom and freedom of expression.

butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Thursday, 14 December 2023 18:30 (eleven months ago) link

I don't understand that at all, it seems thick-headed.

"Now, some may imagine that the colonized, once freed of their shackles, will turn against the colonizer with vengeful, genocidal intention. But imagining is not prediction." Prediction? It has already happened numerous times - what do you think 10/7 was? Again, I don't think "intifada" means "genocide," but in the direct wake of 10/7, used by people praising 10/7, it's not really a stretch to hear it as a call for violence against civilians. Meanwhile, globalizing it: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/14/four-arrested-in-europe-over-alleged-cross-border-hamas-terrorism-plot

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 14 December 2023 18:35 (eleven months ago) link

They’re very much not free of their shackles. Gaza and the West Bank are unrecognised and not autonomous in any meaningful way shape or form.

mojo dojo casas house (gyac), Thursday, 14 December 2023 19:10 (eleven months ago) link

"Now, some may imagine that the colonized, once freed of their shackles, will turn against the colonizer with vengeful, genocidal intention. But imagining is not prediction." Prediction? It has already happened numerous times

Where?

Free Ass Ange (Tom D.), Thursday, 14 December 2023 20:37 (eleven months ago) link

En Belgique, « free Gaza » pour les feux verts, « stop Israël » pour les feux rouges. Une idée pour la mairie de @Paris ? pic.twitter.com/HvdL1lXF9F

— Muzna (@MuznaShihabi) December 14, 2023

xyzzzz__, Thursday, 14 December 2023 20:57 (eleven months ago) link

man alive, it might not be so clear from that excerpt but Butler is referring to the assumption that if Palestinians are allowed to share a state with Israelis they will inevitably murder and oppress them in this hypothetical new state, so therefore a one-state solution shouldn't be pursued.

rob, Thursday, 14 December 2023 21:00 (eleven months ago) link

Protestors are shutting down I-76 in Philly right now

Beyond Goo and Evol (President Keyes), Thursday, 14 December 2023 21:51 (eleven months ago) link

That is so annoying. I read some organ donations were jeopardized in the Bay Area from thay type of action.

The terrible consequence is that there can be no critique of Israel’s killing machine, no oppositional speech, that is not immediately construed as a call for violence—if not the verbal threat of violence itself.

Not buying this. Dartmouth handled this well. Providing space for critique in the academy without inciting the kind of speech that risks harassment and discrimination is possible.

I've read a number of pieces by Judith Butler on these threads. I'm aware she is on an academic continuum and political spectrum who often writes on this issue.

rob what you say is one assumption and maybe even true.

On this issue of campus chants, there is also the fact that certain chants are also slogans used by Hamas. I believe I read reports that Hamas called for an uprising of violence against Jewish people all around the world (please correct me if I am wrong on this). The fact that it was not a complete success does not hegate that there have been incidents of not only increased violence or symbolic hatred towards Jewish people.

I notice Judith Butler makes use of the "Zionist" label.

We talk about this a bit. I recently read pieces about how responding to charges of "anti-semitism" with a sort of moral outrage (anti-Zionism is not anti-semitism!) can be weaponized into a kind of reversal, where the punishment is to ostracize a person for not renouncing their "Zionism" sufficiently and therefore imply the person should not be taken seriously. As part of avoiding responding to the substance of reasoned criticism and reframe the discussion - not in terms of personal responsibility, action or expressions - but in terms of their position as oppressed/opressor.

Which is a tactic I immediately look for when I see "Zionism" introduced. Who is bringing this up, is it a derail, shall we spend time unpacking it, are we attacking a person and trying to avoid legitimate criticism by sarcastically shunning them and inviting others to do so with cruel mockery. Taken at its worst, then using it as a shield for harassment and retaliation.

This ostracism often works because Jewish people are so often outnumbered in any given situation.

Arguably this demagoguery and sloganeering raises awareness of Palestine in the West. So does shutting down freeways and blocking traffic.

felicity, Thursday, 14 December 2023 21:53 (eleven months ago) link

Good to hear an alleged terror plot was foiled in Germany and the Netherlands, because I will be in both places in a couple of weeks and plan to visit a couple of sites of Jewish interest and I am very relieved I'll be perfectly safe.

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 14 December 2023 21:56 (eleven months ago) link

Just so I'm not all bad news here was a video piece about how 2 Dartmouth professors from the Jewish Studies and Middle East Studies department created space for discussion immediately after 10/7 (or 7/10)

https://www.pbs.org/wnet/exploring-hate/2023/11/08/israel-gaza-on-campus-how-dartmouth-is-fostering-dialogue/

Notably they made student mental health a priority

felicity, Thursday, 14 December 2023 22:09 (eleven months ago) link

Really love both of those Butler essays. On that first one published at the LRB, their words on how there is violence and a violence as seen by media really hit hard two months on.

xyzzzz__, Thursday, 14 December 2023 23:14 (eleven months ago) link

There’s a lot to be said about US political dynamics but the running combination of racist bloodlust, craven and repressive McCarthyism, soul-dead cynicism, and utterly abject stupidity is particularly crushing at the moment. pic.twitter.com/IJ4YLIZhrb

— Ben Ehrenreich (@BenEhrenreich) December 14, 2023

xyzzzz__, Friday, 15 December 2023 07:15 (eleven months ago) link

Can't say I hadn't noticed...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/15/biden-extremist-jewish-settlers-travel-ban-loophole

Free Ass Ange (Tom D.), Friday, 15 December 2023 11:46 (eleven months ago) link

sad lol

All 5 of these people gave a standing ovation to a Nazi https://t.co/m0hSqH5JZm

— Jeremy Appel - @jeremyappel.bsky.social (@JeremyAppel1025) December 15, 2023

papal hotwife (milo z), Friday, 15 December 2023 15:12 (eleven months ago) link

would it be really weird if i got fully on board w/ the idf's wanton slaughter of toddlers, journalists, hostages etc? would it be off brand

— wint (@dril) December 15, 2023

xyzzzz__, Friday, 15 December 2023 21:32 (eleven months ago) link

that hummus shit is the stupidest protest I can imagine, I don't think Sabra is even an Israeli company is it? Good job solving all the problems in the middle east!

I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Friday, 15 December 2023 21:59 (eleven months ago) link

According to their website Sabra began in Queens, NY and is now owned by PepsiCo.

more difficult than I look (Aimless), Friday, 15 December 2023 22:09 (eleven months ago) link

" But one of Sabra’s joint owners is the Strauss Group, an Israeli food company that according to its Web site provides financial support to the Golani brigade, part of Israel’s military force. (The other joint owner is PepsiCo.)"

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/04/education/04hummus.html

https://bdsmovement.net/get-involved/what-to-boycott

Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) is a Palestinian-led[6] movement promoting boycotts, divestments, and economic sanctions against Israel. Its objective is to pressure Israel to meet what the BDS movement describes as Israel's obligations under international law,[7] defined as withdrawal from the occupied territories, removal of the separation barrier in the West Bank, full equality for Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel, and "respecting, protecting, and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties".[8] The movement is organized and coordinated by the Palestinian BDS National Committee.[9]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott,_Divestment_and_Sanctions

plax (ico), Friday, 15 December 2023 22:10 (eleven months ago) link

https://www.strauss-group.com/brand/sabra/

plax (ico), Friday, 15 December 2023 22:11 (eleven months ago) link

The critiques I have read about BDS include (1) that it doesn't affect Israel so much as it has a negative, disparate impact on the Jewish diaspora who tend to have more ties to Israel than non Jewish people, and (2) to the extent it affects individuals within Israel it encourages shunning academics and artists who are from Israel, and could otherwise foster contructive dialogue, as a form of collective punishment.

felicity, Friday, 15 December 2023 22:20 (eleven months ago) link

Yes I'm not aware of any Palestinian or Palestinian-led organised peaceful protest movements that have not faced fierce criticism and/or had attempts (successful or not) made to outlaw them.

plax (ico), Friday, 15 December 2023 22:33 (eleven months ago) link

Were the critics of BDS also critical of the boycott of South Africa (never mind, I'm sure they were)?

Expansion to Mackerel (Boring, Maryland), Friday, 15 December 2023 22:40 (eleven months ago) link

Criticism of actions and statements is fine, even encouraged. So is looking at impacts on individuals.

felicity, Friday, 15 December 2023 22:41 (eleven months ago) link

anvil asked elsewhere if Israel withdrew from the occupied lands to the 1948 or 1967 borders if that would negate the charges of apartheid. I was wondering the same.

felicity, Friday, 15 December 2023 22:43 (eleven months ago) link

Yes. The BDS movement is intended to bring scrutiny to the actions and statements of the Israeli state in the oPt and the impact this has on individuals. As with the South African Apartheid boycott, it is intended to leverage consumer power to put pressure on the state in an act of international solidarity.

plax (ico), Friday, 15 December 2023 22:46 (eleven months ago) link

f Israel withdrew from the occupied lands to the 1948 or 1967 borders

There is no indication that will ever happen, so it seems like a pointless question to answer compared with whether or how much the charges of apartheid against present day Israel are justified.

more difficult than I look (Aimless), Friday, 15 December 2023 22:51 (eleven months ago) link

While the South African boycott encouraged a full cultural embargo, BDS is primarily focused on goods produced by the oPt from which Palestinians have been forcibly displaced and companies that facilitate the infrastructure of illegal settlements.

plax (ico), Friday, 15 December 2023 22:51 (eleven months ago) link

Insofar as BDS’s objectives are concerned, they’re clearly laid out on their website. BDS has many vocal Israeli supporters both domestically and abroad, in politics, culture and academia. Characterizing non-violent forms of protest as collective punishment is incorrect.

i do, what’s wrong with that? so? what now? (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 15 December 2023 22:52 (eleven months ago) link

Is that stated clearly somewhere? I thought the goal of boycotting South African Apartheid was to end apartheid, not to eliminate South Africa. Whereas I had the impression the ends of BDS were not clearly stated to stop at the occupation but left open the possibility of eliminating Israel as a state. I could be wrong.

felicity, Friday, 15 December 2023 22:54 (eleven months ago) link

As far as Pro-Palestinian protest goes I support it.

I don't think I have seen people opposing the use of the Palestinian flag at all. Opposing the Hamas headband, yes.

felicity, Friday, 15 December 2023 22:58 (eleven months ago) link

Inspired by the South African anti-apartheid movement, the BDS call urges action to pressure Israel to comply with international law by:

1. Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands and dismantling the Wall
International law recognises the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, Gaza and the Syrian Golan Heights as occupied by Israel.

2. Granting Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel their right to full equality

3. Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN resolution 194

mojo dojo casas house (gyac), Friday, 15 December 2023 23:02 (eleven months ago) link

"Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions (BDS) is a Palestinian-led movement for freedom, justice and equality. BDS upholds the simple principle that Palestinians are entitled to the same rights as the rest of humanity.

Israel is occupying and colonising Palestinian land, discriminating against Palestinian citizens of Israel and denying Palestinian refugees the right to return to their homes. Inspired by the South African anti-apartheid movement, the BDS call urges action to pressure Israel to comply with international law.

BDS is now a vibrant global movement made up of unions, academic associations, churches and grassroots movements across the world. Since its launch in 2005, BDS is having a major impact and is effectively challenging international support for Israeli apartheid and settler-colonialism."

https://bdsmovement.net/what-is-bds

plax (ico), Friday, 15 December 2023 23:03 (eleven months ago) link

I'm reading UN resolution 194 passed in 1948 now. It does sound like the return to all lands and compensation.

felicity, Friday, 15 December 2023 23:13 (eleven months ago) link

As far as Pro-Palestinian protest goes I support it.

I love that you do, tbh. It's something I'm passionate about. I'm not the sort to proselytise the boycott to the point of criticising those who don't join in (see: Big Thief getting slammed for booking a show in Israel last year), but I am particularly prickly about defending its validity, and this extends especially to those protesting certain businesses in Canada (and getting arrested and doxxed for it)

i do, what’s wrong with that? so? what now? (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 15 December 2023 23:26 (eleven months ago) link

anvil asked elsewhere if Israel withdrew from the occupied lands to the 1948 or 1967 borders if that would negate the charges of apartheid. I was wondering the same.

I didn't really have a strong sense on this per se, its more that it feels like Israel's treatment of people in the occupied territories isn't the same as its treatment of Arabs within Israel, which makes occupation the primary factor? But is it occupying Palestinian land or Egyptian and Jordanian land? (which a return to 1967 borders would mean?).

anvil, Friday, 15 December 2023 23:28 (eleven months ago) link

There was a shanty town on my college campus to oppose Apartheid in South Africa. It was very effective. I had a classmate from South Africa. Nobody hassled him or painted bloody handprints on his dorm or anything.

I think protest is good and I appreciate reasoned discussions about it.

felicity, Friday, 15 December 2023 23:31 (eleven months ago) link

This is no longer on the Sabra website, but afaik no evidence of a change in policy has been otherwise extended:

"In The Field With Soldiers

Our connection with soldiers goes as far back as the country, and even further. We see a mission and need to continue to provide our soldiers with support, to enhance their quality of life and service conditions, and sweeten their special moments. We have adopted the Golani reconnaissance platoon for over 30 years and provide them with an ongoing variety of food products for their training or missions, and provide personal care packages for each soldier that completes the path. We have also adopted the Southern Shualei Shimshon troops from the Givati platoon with the goal of improving their service conditions and being there at the front to spoil them with our best products."

https://web.archive.org/web/20100107111550/http://www.strauss-group.com/CommunityInvolvement

plax (ico), Friday, 15 December 2023 23:31 (eleven months ago) link

I think it's a different perspective when you are part of the Jewish Diaspora. My ancestors were part of a pogrom that long predated Israel.

We have a family friend whose grandson had to quit his studies in veternarian school and was called up in reserves. He is now posted in a tent on the Lebanese border. I don't think he wants to kill anybody and I don't know if they get enough food. He has no control over what is happening. I think he is pretty aware that people dislike what Israel is doing.

felicity, Friday, 15 December 2023 23:39 (eleven months ago) link

I'm not really sure what you're saying. A different perspective to what?

plax (ico), Friday, 15 December 2023 23:45 (eleven months ago) link

Just for context-- not sure if this story was linked in this thread-- this is what happened in Toronto a couple weeks ago:

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/arrests-in-vandalism-at-indigo-store-sparking-pro-palestinian-protest-at-toronto-police-station/article_7157695e-ebf8-5011-98a4-1942e65301fb.html

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/indigo-vandalism-charges-1.7037711

The Star story explains the reason why Indigo has been a target of protest. The Globe does not, but mentions the response from the Simon Wiesenthal Institute.

I personally support protests against Indigo. That said, I do not think vandalism is an effective form of protest; this goes for red paint thrown at Indigo's doors or bloody handprints (don't know what you're specifically referring to, felicity, but I believe you on that). It's not that I think vandalism is equivocal to violence; I don't think this is the case. It's that many people do think this is the case, and vandalism can threaten to delegitimise what would otherwise be a peaceful, effective protest. (Also, too, it's not gonna be the CEO of the company that cleans up that red paint, you know?). But yeah, I've had heated arguments with activist friends about this very point.

i do, what’s wrong with that? so? what now? (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 15 December 2023 23:46 (eleven months ago) link

I had a classmate from South Africa. Nobody hassled him or painted bloody handprints on his dorm or anything.

The IDF are considerably adept at killing people than the South African Army ever were.

Free Ass Ange (Tom D.), Friday, 15 December 2023 23:51 (eleven months ago) link

more adept

Free Ass Ange (Tom D.), Friday, 15 December 2023 23:51 (eleven months ago) link

You're right but they can cool it with the bloody handprints imo

i do, what’s wrong with that? so? what now? (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 15 December 2023 23:54 (eleven months ago) link

I'm not really sure what you're saying. A different perspective to what?

― plax (ico), Friday, December 15, 2023 3:45 PM bookmarkflaglink

I told a personal story. Each person has a different perspective from other people. People do that in this thread frequently.

felicity, Saturday, 16 December 2023 00:06 (eleven months ago) link

You're right but they can cool it with the bloody handprints imo

― i do, what’s wrong with that? so? what now? (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, December 15, 2023 3:54 PM bookmarkflaglink

Amen to that.

felicity, Saturday, 16 December 2023 00:08 (eleven months ago) link

The IDF are considerably adept at killing people than the South African Army ever were.

― Free Ass Ange (Tom D.), Friday, December 15, 2023 6:51 PM (sixteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Hamas is considerably more adept at it than the ANC too.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Saturday, 16 December 2023 00:10 (eleven months ago) link

In before people start blaming Jewish US college students for this.

― felicity, Friday, December 8, 2023 3:03 PM bookmarkflaglink

I was here first.

felicity, Saturday, 16 December 2023 00:23 (eleven months ago) link

Hamas is considerably more adept at it than the ANC too.

So drawing comparisons is stupid.

Free Ass Ange (Tom D.), Saturday, 16 December 2023 00:25 (eleven months ago) link

Exactly

felicity, Saturday, 16 December 2023 00:28 (eleven months ago) link


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