Israel/Palestine post 10/7 - follow-on events/thoughts as relate to other countries

anvil asked elsewhere if Israel withdrew from the occupied lands to the 1948 or 1967 borders if that would negate the charges of apartheid. I was wondering the same.

Yes. The BDS movement is intended to bring scrutiny to the actions and statements of the Israeli state in the oPt and the impact this has on individuals. As with the South African Apartheid boycott, it is intended to leverage consumer power to put pressure on the state in an act of international solidarity.

f Israel withdrew from the occupied lands to the 1948 or 1967 borders

There is no indication that will ever happen, so it seems like a pointless question to answer compared with whether or how much the charges of apartheid against present day Israel are justified.

While the South African boycott encouraged a full cultural embargo, BDS is primarily focused on goods produced by the oPt from which Palestinians have been forcibly displaced and companies that facilitate the infrastructure of illegal settlements.

Insofar as BDS’s objectives are concerned, they’re clearly laid out on their website. BDS has many vocal Israeli supporters both domestically and abroad, in politics, culture and academia. Characterizing non-violent forms of protest as collective punishment is incorrect.

Is that stated clearly somewhere? I thought the goal of boycotting South African Apartheid was to end apartheid, not to eliminate South Africa. Whereas I had the impression the ends of BDS were not clearly stated to stop at the occupation but left open the possibility of eliminating Israel as a state. I could be wrong.

As far as Pro-Palestinian protest goes I support it.

I don't think I have seen people opposing the use of the Palestinian flag at all. Opposing the Hamas headband, yes.

Inspired by the South African anti-apartheid movement, the BDS call urges action to pressure Israel to comply with international law by:

1. Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands and dismantling the Wall
International law recognises the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, Gaza and the Syrian Golan Heights as occupied by Israel.

2. Granting Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel their right to full equality

3. Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN resolution 194

"Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions (BDS) is a Palestinian-led movement for freedom, justice and equality. BDS upholds the simple principle that Palestinians are entitled to the same rights as the rest of humanity.

Israel is occupying and colonising Palestinian land, discriminating against Palestinian citizens of Israel and denying Palestinian refugees the right to return to their homes. Inspired by the South African anti-apartheid movement, the BDS call urges action to pressure Israel to comply with international law.

BDS is now a vibrant global movement made up of unions, academic associations, churches and grassroots movements across the world. Since its launch in 2005, BDS is having a major impact and is effectively challenging international support for Israeli apartheid and settler-colonialism."

https://bdsmovement.net/what-is-bds

I'm reading UN resolution 194 passed in 1948 now. It does sound like the return to all lands and compensation.

As far as Pro-Palestinian protest goes I support it.

I love that you do, tbh. It's something I'm passionate about. I'm not the sort to proselytise the boycott to the point of criticising those who don't join in (see: Big Thief getting slammed for booking a show in Israel last year), but I am particularly prickly about defending its validity, and this extends especially to those protesting certain businesses in Canada (and getting arrested and doxxed for it)

anvil asked elsewhere if Israel withdrew from the occupied lands to the 1948 or 1967 borders if that would negate the charges of apartheid. I was wondering the same.

I didn't really have a strong sense on this per se, its more that it feels like Israel's treatment of people in the occupied territories isn't the same as its treatment of Arabs within Israel, which makes occupation the primary factor? But is it occupying Palestinian land or Egyptian and Jordanian land? (which a return to 1967 borders would mean?).

There was a shanty town on my college campus to oppose Apartheid in South Africa. It was very effective. I had a classmate from South Africa. Nobody hassled him or painted bloody handprints on his dorm or anything.

I think protest is good and I appreciate reasoned discussions about it.

This is no longer on the Sabra website, but afaik no evidence of a change in policy has been otherwise extended:

"In The Field With Soldiers

Our connection with soldiers goes as far back as the country, and even further. We see a mission and need to continue to provide our soldiers with support, to enhance their quality of life and service conditions, and sweeten their special moments. We have adopted the Golani reconnaissance platoon for over 30 years and provide them with an ongoing variety of food products for their training or missions, and provide personal care packages for each soldier that completes the path. We have also adopted the Southern Shualei Shimshon troops from the Givati platoon with the goal of improving their service conditions and being there at the front to spoil them with our best products."

https://web.archive.org/web/20100107111550/http://www.strauss-group.com/CommunityInvolvement

I think it's a different perspective when you are part of the Jewish Diaspora. My ancestors were part of a pogrom that long predated Israel.

We have a family friend whose grandson had to quit his studies in veternarian school and was called up in reserves. He is now posted in a tent on the Lebanese border. I don't think he wants to kill anybody and I don't know if they get enough food. He has no control over what is happening. I think he is pretty aware that people dislike what Israel is doing.

I'm not really sure what you're saying. A different perspective to what?

Just for context-- not sure if this story was linked in this thread-- this is what happened in Toronto a couple weeks ago:

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/arrests-in-vandalism-at-indigo-store-sparking-pro-palestinian-protest-at-toronto-police-station/article_7157695e-ebf8-5011-98a4-1942e65301fb.html

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/indigo-vandalism-charges-1.7037711

The Star story explains the reason why Indigo has been a target of protest. The Globe does not, but mentions the response from the Simon Wiesenthal Institute.

I personally support protests against Indigo. That said, I do not think vandalism is an effective form of protest; this goes for red paint thrown at Indigo's doors or bloody handprints (don't know what you're specifically referring to, felicity, but I believe you on that). It's not that I think vandalism is equivocal to violence; I don't think this is the case. It's that many people do think this is the case, and vandalism can threaten to delegitimise what would otherwise be a peaceful, effective protest. (Also, too, it's not gonna be the CEO of the company that cleans up that red paint, you know?). But yeah, I've had heated arguments with activist friends about this very point.

I had a classmate from South Africa. Nobody hassled him or painted bloody handprints on his dorm or anything.

The IDF are considerably adept at killing people than the South African Army ever were.

more adept

You're right but they can cool it with the bloody handprints imo

I'm not really sure what you're saying. A different perspective to what?

― plax (ico), Friday, December 15, 2023 3:45 PM bookmarkflaglink

I told a personal story. Each person has a different perspective from other people. People do that in this thread frequently.

You're right but they can cool it with the bloody handprints imo

― i do, what’s wrong with that? so? what now? (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, December 15, 2023 3:54 PM bookmarkflaglink

Amen to that.

The IDF are considerably adept at killing people than the South African Army ever were.

― Free Ass Ange (Tom D.), Friday, December 15, 2023 6:51 PM (sixteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Hamas is considerably more adept at it than the ANC too.

In before people start blaming Jewish US college students for this.

― felicity, Friday, December 8, 2023 3:03 PM bookmarkflaglink

I was here first.

Hamas is considerably more adept at it than the ANC too.

So drawing comparisons is stupid.

Exactly

It does depend what comparisons you're drawing though. Saying Israel practices a form of apartheid is a valid comparison

Beyond that, not really.

The critiques I have read about BDS include (1) that it doesn't affect Israel so much as it has a negative, disparate impact on the Jewish diaspora who tend to have more ties to Israel than non Jewish people, and (2) to the extent it affects individuals within Israel it encourages shunning academics and artists who are from Israel, and could otherwise foster contructive dialogue, as a form of collective punishment.

*Nick Cave thread

It does depend what comparisons you're drawing though. Saying Israel practices a form of apartheid is a valid comparison

― Free Ass Ange (Tom D.), Friday, December 15, 2023 4:32 PM bookmarkflaglink

It is. And like anvil, I was trying to understand if the claim of apartheid is a claim about Israel's treatment of people in the occupied territories or a claim about its treatment of Arabs within Israel as well.

I hate Nick Cave so I avoided that thread didn't know it was a discussion of the merits of BDS #onethread

well this is bad: "Middle school teacher arrested after allegedly threatening to behead Muslim student who said Israeli flag offended her"

That was insane. Just terrible.

I don't have a strong opinion on this, and I understand if people think its semantics, but I wonder if Russia is a better comparison than South Africa? A Ukrainian that is living in the occupied territories, in Mariupol or Berdyansk, doesn't have the same rights as a Ukrainian that is living in St Petersburg or Kazan (or for that matter anyone in Mariupol vs St Petersburg), but we don't call what Russia is implementing in its occupied territories a form of apartheid (though maybe we should, not sure).

The problem with Russia is more generally considered to be occupation not apartheid, and for me I think occupations potentially always result in apartheid like situations, because the territories that are occupied get treated differently

Apartheid is institutionalised racial hierarchical segregation. Key to this is the institutionalison. Multiple generations of Palestinians have grown up in a normalised system of occupation, subject to combinations of state perpetrated measures and those carried out by settlers and facilitated by the state (politicians, courts) that range from violations of human dignity to physical violence including large numbers of civilian deaths year after year. Though it is not unreasonable to speculate that this may be established as a norm in occupied Ukraine, it would be more appropriate I think to suggest that whatever situation pertains there is the result of a state of emergency stemming from the outbreak of an illegal war of aggression.

But with parts of Ukraine approaching a decade under occupation, plus the arrival of settlers during that time period, at what point do we say that its has become a normalised system of occupation?

Is a state of emergency necessarily a temporary situation, and can there be a situation of indefinite temporary?

I feel like Russia and Israel apply different rules to territories they have taken and apply different rules to people who live in those territories than in the rest of their country, whereas South Africa applied those rules universally. That could still be apartheid but it seems more predicated on occupation than in the case of SA

Is Jewish considered a race? I don't think it is in the US.

"Socially, the country will implement Jim Crow-style segregation. Palestinians will be forbidden from purchasing property from non-Jews. Everything up to and including maternity wards will be segregated by race."

https://www.ettingermentum.news/p/israels-government-of-psychopaths

That's his description of Smotrich's vision for Israel. Smotrich and Ben Gvir are psychos. It's a stain on Israel that they were allowed in the government. But .. they are not the government. Netanyahu needed them to regain the prime ministership and he thinks he can keep them under control. Maybe he's right that he can keep them under control but it now looks very doubtful he'll stay in power once the fighting stops. So what good did this shameful bargain even do him? I do think the successor government is likely to send the Kahanists back out to the shadows where they belong.

I wanted to understand the statement

Apartheid is institutionalised racial hierarchical segregation.

in terms of Israel.

I guess I hadn't thought too deeply about the "apartheid" label until plax (ico) typed that definition out.

I don't want to trivialize the situation in Israel/Palestine. And I also wouldn't want to trivialize what people experienced under Apartheid in South Africa or the US under Jim Crow laws, which were state enforced racial segregation.

Race is an immutable characteristic. Apartheid is a crime against humanity.

Do people think Jewish is a race when they say this?

Race is an immutable characteristic.

Is this still the thread where we talk about I/P as it relates to other countries btw because it doesn't seem that way? (I am as guilty as anyone)

table I am pretty sympathetic to that view.

Which is why I am again questioning the "apartheid" label and definition.

xp yes - this came up as a result of Tracer posting stickers of "apartheid" hummus for use in the UK.

Actual Jim Crow laws are a pretty good way to disprove "race is an immutable characteristic"!

Yes I understand that. I'm still asking the people who use "apartheid" in reference to what they mean in Israel.

Plax said it was institutionalized racial hierarchical segregation.

Saying race is a construct would seem to discourage use of the term "apartheid" as a descriptor.

No it doesn't. Israeli law (notably the nation state law) is widely considered (by those encompassing supporters and critics) to establish Arab people in Israel and the oPt a racially inferior group. This is a social and legal construct, not an immutable distinction between groups of people.

You said hierarchy, which implies races, plural.

You're saying it's Israeli laws singling out Arab citizens of Israel and constructing their identity in terms of race?

I'm genuinely asking because apartheid has a lot of shock value.

Friend wrote this piece for the Nation. Well worth reading.

Why is it not enough for culture workers to condemn the war in high-profile venues? Measuring public opinion alone, the movement against the war on Gaza is highly popular, but deeply disempowered. A 70 percent supermajority of the US supports a cease-fire, including a majority of both Republican and Democratic voters. But the US government still foots the multibillion-dollar bill for Israel’s war crimes—which include the intentional targeting of civilian infrastructure, launching airstrikes at schools, invading Al-Shifa Hospital under the false claim that it hosted a military base, and repeatedly bombing the Al-Jabalia refugee camp. A small, though growing, minority of democratically elected representatives at the federal level—the actual decision-makers whose votes secure or prohibit military aid to Israel—have publicly called for a permanent cease-fire. In other words, while people who oppose war and genocide need to hold the line, we don’t actually need to win the battle for public opinion against the war—that is already decisively on our side. Instead, we need to understand the power structure that makes a small number of decision makers decide to facilitate the war in Gaza and that insulates them from the consequences of their actions. And then we need to use that knowledge to cause a greater crisis for them than the one they fear from our opponents.