Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

yall will do anything to avoid blaming Israel for anything

The Israel/Palestine conflict doesn't yield much to an analysis that simply apportions blame. It has become a multi-generational cycle of mutual retaliation and reaction, where one of the sides has acquired a far greater power to inflict violence on the weaker party. The only workable solution requires magnanimity, which neither side seems capable of generating in sufficient quantity to overcome their multi-generational fear, grief and anger.

I should add that magnanimity is always a shorter reach for the side with the upper hand.

Bigger problem with blaming Iran is that the US is actively assembling a task force of warships to send to the Red Sea. Who's spinning out the conflict to a wider arena? One of these nations is actually in the region IIRC.

Yeah, that’s a bit more exact than I went, milo— the US could stop what is happening in Gaza right now but it will not, and the US could choose to ignore justified blockades of Israel but it will not. It’s not pro-Iran to understand who is dictating terms in this conflict— it is Israel and the US.

this happened a couple of days ago, so apologies if it was posted and I missed it: https://www.lpj.org/posts/gaza-16th-december-2023.html?s_cat=1102

^that's the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem's account of an IDF sniper murdering two women at a church and an IDF tank firing a rocket at a convent sheltering disabled people

No one has posted that link, so thanks

Just had a Israeli government spokesman on the news denying that story, claiming the IDF don't target civilians and bringing up the old "blood libel" accusation - I assume that was aimed at the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem (and, by extension, the Pope).

How to win friends and influence people!

I assume they don't "target" hostages either, and yet

ah just saw gyac posted something on the other countries thread that I believe (?) is related

It is.

Man some of yall will do anything to avoid blaming Israel for anything, huh.
― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Monday, December 18, 2023 10:01 AM bookmarkflaglink

Agree the force is excessive.

I know you're no longer talking about me, but can you please stop this subtweety type accusation of "yall" unless you are actually referring to anyone itt. Is this just inflammatory rhetoric you are venting or what. Absolutely nobody here has said Israel is blameless afaict.

Have to say it seems just as weird seeing people post as if Hamas has no choice in what it does, including holding hostages or wearing civilian clothing or other clearly established war crimes.

I realize there is cognitive difficulty grappling with all the horror here. It's extremely jarring that it seems some people can put the hostages out of their thoughts. For me it is a second never ending horror show on top of the mass killing in Gaza. Whenever anyone calls this simple I just despair for human kind.

It's extremely jarring that it seems some people can put the hostages out of their thoughts.

Tell that to the Israeli government.

For the Nth time this is not a point that needs to be made to people in this thread.

The thread falls silent whenever we go back to when there was a cease fire, hostages were promised and then the hostage exchange stopped. Are you saying the Israeli government caused that. I really don't get it.

Sorry. I forgot you're in charge of what people are allowed to say itt. I'll know better in future.

this happened a couple of days ago, so apologies if it was posted and I missed it: https://www.lpj.org/posts/gaza-16th-december-2023.html?s_cat=1102

^that's the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem's account of an IDF sniper murdering two women at a church and an IDF tank firing a rocket at a convent sheltering disabled people

― rob, Monday, 18 December 2023 19:25 (thirty-two minutes ago)

Brit MP Layla Moran has family in there, first time in my life I've felt genuine sympathy and sadness for a member of the LibDem party, listening to her talking about how desperate the situation is inside the church.

felicity, I'm confused, didn't you just ask for table not to do "subtweety type accusations"? interpreting "silence" as having a message is unfair

I posted about that in the other thread as it relates to the UK.

yeah sorry I only saw that after posting. I mean, it's probably fine to post here too, but I didn't intend to split the conversation or anything

Isn't Israel arresting people in the West Bank and killing Palestinians every day?

Are we saying this will all stop the moment the hostages are released?

felicity, I'm confused, didn't you just ask for table not to do "subtweety type accusations"? interpreting "silence" as having a message is unfair

― rob, Monday, December 18, 2023 3:06 PM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

on second thought, I'm not sure I'm reading what you wrote correctly, please ignore my post

felicity, I'm confused, didn't you just ask for table not to do "subtweety type accusations"? interpreting "silence" as having a message is unfair

― rob, Monday, December 18, 2023 12:06 PM bookmarkflaglink

I don't think so? I said I despair when it seems like people "call it simple."

xyzzx has called it "simple."

Then Tom D said what he said. And I said what I said.

Have to say it seems just as weird seeing people post as if Hamas has no choice in what it does, including holding hostages or wearing civilian clothing or other clearly established war crimes.

"xyzzx has called it "simple.""

I used this rhetorically to comment on that tweet about houses that might be built once Gaza is ethnically cleansed. A source was eventually found. I said it didn't matter and explained further

I thought we weren't going to subtweet?

And table otm.

Yes which is why I am asking table to clarify his "y'all"

Xp

felicity, the “yall” was a reference to akm’s post, i am from an area where “yall” can mean one person or a bunch of people, and i was responding to akm and akm only. apologies for any confusion.

I often use it to avoid gender distinctions.

Isn't Israel arresting people in the West Bank and killing Palestinians every day?

Are we saying this will all stop the moment the hostages are released?

― xyzzzz__, Monday, December 18, 2023 12:08 PM bookmarkflaglink

No. Is that what you think happened? I had not considered that since I think of them as separate governments.

Tbc I believe that settler murder is happening and it is wrong. I meant do you think that was what ended the previous cease fire.

I think a certain amount of indirection can be useful to take some of the fire out of really emotive subjects, to stop it turning into "You! Answer me!" - but I also understand how it can be annoying.

I did think that you were of the first opinion there, Felicity - certainly seeing your request the line above "seeing people post", it does seem to be sending a conflicting message.

"I had not considered that since I think of them as separate governments."

Time to consider other things.

The previous ceasefire was only ever meant to last a few days. I know that to get there was a struggle as Netanyahu kept stalling. I have also seen reports that during the ceasefire there were further arrests in the West Bank event while many Palestinians were released.

There are reports of a start of further negotiations with Qatar as mediator. Let's see if all Palestinian hostages can be released from Israeli jails too.

Sorry I am really not following you Andrew. I think there is some misunderstanding here.

The Palestinian death toll has climbed above 20,000 people, I find it rather ghoulish to demand that Israeli hostages be centered in critics' thoughts.

It's not. I am saying it's difficult and stressful to hold the 2 thoughts at once. Maybe I don't want to know more about the moral calculus people are doing. For me it is not an option.

Sorry I meant *I am not*

I can see how you might assume that though. Thabks for explaining.

Hi Felicity - I suppose what I am asking is, what is the distinction you'd see between table's 'y'all' and your use of 'people' in "Have to say it seems just as weird seeing people post as if Hamas has no choice in what it does, including holding hostages or wearing civilian clothing or other clearly established war crimes." ?

Hi Andrew, it may not be that distinct and I don't even know if I suggested it was, since I said "just as weird." More of a reply in kind.

Human rights defender and anti-occupation activist, Munther Amira, was abducted by the Israeli occupation forces from his home this morning. Munther is a known figure in the peaceful resistance movement who, as a result, was repeatedly persecuted by the Israeli occupation”s… pic.twitter.com/AwlKIiYOs8

— Laith Arafeh 🇵🇸 (@ArafehLaith) December 18, 2023

Iran blockading the Red Sea, apparently doing it's best to try to spin this into a wider regional conflict.

I don't think this would lead to a wider conflict, and I'm not sure thats Iran's direct intention here either. Surely if Iran wanted a wider conflict it would involve Hezbollah, but is Hezbollah stronger than in 2006? I don't know if its all that clear what Iran's realisable goals over the next 6-18 months are here (I'm not all that clear on Israels either)

BBC report on "administrative detention" in the West Bank: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67600015

In a family home in Bethlehem, in the occupied West Bank, Yazen Alhasnat was sitting next to his mother rubbing sleep from his eyes.

The 17-year-old had been released from prison the night before, nearly five months after being arrested in a 4am Israeli military raid on the home.

Yazen had been held under "administrative detention" - a longstanding security policy, inherited from the British, that allows the Israeli state to imprison people indefinitely without charge, and without presenting any evidence against them.

"They have a secret file," Yazen said. "They don't tell you what's in it."

He was back at home because he was among the 180 Palestinian children and women released from prison by Israel in the recent exchange for hostages held by Hamas in Gaza.

But at the same time the Palestinian prisoners were being released, Israel was detaining people at its highest rate in years. In the weeks since 7 October, the number of people in administrative detention - already at a 30-year high of 1,300 - has shot up to more than 2,800.

...

Palestinians have been subject to administrative detention in this region since 1945, first under the British Mandate and then in the Occupied Palestinian Territory. The law has in some very rare instances been used against Israeli settlers, but it is overwhelmingly used to detain West Bank Palestinians, including children.

Administrative detainees are granted a hearing - at a military court, in front of an Israeli military judge - but the state is not required to disclose any of its evidence to the detainees or their lawyers. The detainees can then be sentenced to up to six months. But the six months can be extended indefinitely by the military court, meaning that administrative detainees have no real idea at any point how long they are going to be locked up.

"What really gets to you is the uncertainty," Yazen said, sitting in his living room. "Will you finish your six months and leave? Or will you be extended for a year, for two years?"

The detainees can mount an appeal, all the way up to Israel's Supreme Court, but with no access to the evidence against them, they have nothing to base it on. Palestinians who are formally tried in the military courts have more access to evidence, but the courts boast a roughly 99% conviction rate.

Nobody should be holding up Guantanamo Bay as an example for how to do anything. It would be good if they can release all the detainees in a hostage swap and truce.

yeah the Gitmo reference stood out to me too, very dismaying

Good mourning!

i don't think it really helps to think of the houthis or hezbollah as just 'iran' - they are obviously backed by iran but have their own interests too and act autonomously. hezbollah does not seem to desire a wider conflict given the domestic situation in lebanon and that it would mean the usa getting involved. a lot of the israeli government do want to escalate against hezbollah though. the houthis seem to want to do everything they can in their power to oppose israel, out of solidarity with hamas and aren't particularly concerned who gets involved to oppose them - they basically won the yemeni civil war against the us/saudi-backed forces after all.

I definitely don't think they're just Iran, and there is obviously some autonomy there, but I don't think they act without the greenlight from Iran. Though its arguable that while they don't act without Iran's say so, they also don't act at Iran's behest unless they also want to. But then the level of control Iran have is difficult to really know. A relatively decoupled relationship with big picture alignment would make sense

I'd agree Hezbollah doesn't want a wider conflict right now, but I'm not convinced Iran does either - or at least it doesn't want to expend Hezbollah on that. Hybrid war makes a lot more sense than actual conflict anyway, and that kind of disruption doesnt need to have regional goals, the Red Sea, the Baltic, the Arctic, East Africa are all potentially tenable

Tenable in general, not all for the same actor

But also the delineations between nation states, security services, organised crime groups, pmcs, cartels, and other nation state actors aren't necessarily clear and obvious

i couldn't stop crying after watching al jazeera reporter hani mahmoud, who was live on air as us-israel bombed kuwait special hospital, screaming: "oh my god, that's the hospital! oh my god! why? why? why???" why, indeed? there's no other question. i have no answer. just tears. pic.twitter.com/HU6fFn41zM

— 🍉Steven W. Thrasher, PhD, CPT (@thrasherxy) December 20, 2023