Israel/Palestine post 10/7 - follow-on events/thoughts as relate to other countries

Good.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67885910

"The issue wasn’t just that our pleas were falling on deaf ears – it was that we were appealing to the very institutions which were responsible for driving the colonisation of Palestine.

With the “democratic process” failing to create change, and with Elbit continuing to manufacture Israeli weapons on British soil, I was left with two options: continue with tactics which were failing or take direct action to shut Elbit down"

https://www.declassifieduk.org/why-i-risked-prison-to-shut-elbit-down/

The South African Apartheid Regime was backed by three countries to its wretched end; Israel, the United States, and the United Kingdom. We can hear the echoes of this history as a free South Africa prepares to take Israel to court for genocide

— Aditya Iyer 🍉 (@Thatadityaiyer) January 10, 2024

The anti-boycott bill is an assault on Palestinian solidarity.

I would have voted against it, but I am at The Hague to support South Africa’s case against Israel.

This is a historic moment for humanity, and a wake-up call for political leaders letting a genocide unfold.

— Jeremy Corbyn (@jeremycorbyn) January 10, 2024

Sad to say I have no time to watch this.

⭕️ LIVE: South Africa begins its genocide case against Israel at the ICJ in The Hague. https://t.co/91IIgwSAgK

— Al Jazeera English (@AJEnglish) January 11, 2024

I must say I find it highly amusing to watch the Israeli delegation at the ICJ being forced to listen (and to shut up) when its crimes are read aloud by South African counsels. pic.twitter.com/muX9QT7u9K

— روني الدنماركي (@Aldanmarki) January 11, 2024

Good thread on what the Israeli defence will look like and how this might all play out

Israel will respond to South Africa’s statement tomorrow and I keep seeing people ask “how will they respond”…l don’t think their legal response will be any different than what they’ve been pushing. They’ll play the video from the 7th of October and centre it on self-defence.

— Arnesa Buljušmić-Kustura (@Rrrrnessa) January 11, 2024

The Left has ab Antisemitism problem. And it's morphing into a Qanon problem and we all know it. https://t.co/gJI2Kmseg1

— Cartright (@Vandalay_Inc) January 11, 2024

That account is retweeting some pretty unhinged stuff about South Africa being "the legal arm of Hamas", among other things.

That's the official line of the Israeli government in fact.

https://www.artnews.com/art-news/news/indiana-university-cancels-survey-palestinian-painter-samia-halaby-1234692712/

Besides all that the tweet is very clear in terms of the point made and the double standard he was arguing about, which is what I wanted to put across.

You want it that way, so there you go.

xp

I agree with you that stuff like canceling the Palestinian art exhibit is bullshit.

I'm very interested to see what the submissions by Israel's counsel will be. The key items of genocide are very obviously applicable to Israel's conduct but the submissions on areas of potential weakness (intent, competence and 'self defense' as a justification) seemed very strong.

The connections that SA's lawyers made between the clearly genocidal rhetoric evident across Israel's political leadership and its mirroring in the language of IOF soldiers was chilling in its economy and a hint at the strength of the case they would hope to make if the case continues to merits.

They cited fairly voluminous ICJ jurisprudence weighted against the use of 'self-defense' as a justification for genocide, arguing that there is no justification for genocide ("Article I
The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.")

I think there is a cynicism towards this particular case being brought by SA at this time. That doesn't mean it is wrong or that the actions are not genocidal or that other genocides are not going on.

I don't think the tweet is clear at all: it suggests that the left has a "qanon problem" and shares a video of ppl booing a man speaking of losing relatives to a terror attack. The implication I guess being that the ppl booing don't believe the attack happened, which already doesn't follow - but if you actually watch the video, the jeering does not happen while he's recounting this, but when he goes on to say that the motion under discussion fuels anti semitism (a motion the ppl booing presumably are there to support). I'm not saying the ppl booing are right - I don't know the details of the motion - but the way the tweet frames this is not credible.

It's the Livingston Formulation.

I didn't think tweet particularly clear either.

I did see a vid from a few weeks ago, also from SF at some kind of housing forum, which I think fits the description much more than this one. I didn't post it, but I'll try find it

If that is the motion at the bottom of the screen it seems... uncontroversial?

If the motion is not controversial, why boo the man and make pig noises at the hearing?

Even the UN passed a resolutiom calling on Hamas to release the hostages.

The motion is obviously controversial, whether it should be or not, because the clip is of a person arguing against it. The clip does not explain the speaker's reasoning for thinking that way though, nor again does anything in it relate back to the tweet's suggestion of a "qanon problem", so as I said I don't find it clear in any way.

If the motion is not controversial, why boo the man and make pig noises at the hearing?

“my relatives were killed and so the Israeli government should be able to keep up with its genocide and we shouldn’t say anything about it”

this is a shit point.

This is the text of the resolution as it passed: https://sfgov.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=12564830&GUID=06E799CA-0C22-49FE-992E-C2766A7C4625

Here's a news report on the hearing: https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/sf-ceasefire-resolution-gaza-israel-war-supervisor-18598447.php

this is a shit point.

ok, boner.

which is not to say this instinct is wrong, but that it requires much much more.

Much more what?

This isn’t complicated. The resolution condemns Hamas and asks for return of hostages. It also asks for an immediate ceasefire and a state where both Israelis and Palestinians can thrive.

The guy in felicity’s tweet doesn’t agree, and seems to believe that any criticism of Israel is anti-semitic, meanwhile the Israeli government is purposely starving the population of Gaza after murdering 30,000 people. Fuck him and his opinions and any response to those opinions other than condemnation.

Nah, you can be against killing innocent people and also not make pig noises at victims' families.

It should be noted that mocking jews by reference to their relationship with pigs has strong anti-antisemitic vibes.

^ mentally remove one anti plz

Did you mean to have two antis in there

Ha

Is there a video where the protestors are heard making pig noises?

The guy in the video said it. I believed it, but if you want to litigate that, I guess that proves my point.

What, that we should believe everything that someone who condones genocide says just because he’s Jewish? Please. There are no pig noises in that video. His point is ridiculous, and he’s a moron.

you'll agree with me then that pig noises directed at a Jewish person who has lost family is antisemitic?

y/n

felicity I am so tired of your piously disingenuous concern trolling

5 children are dying every hour in Gaza but let's wring our hands about some (alleged) insults in a meeting, or a sign on a backpack, or wtf ever

it's like the people who focus on a single broken window after a large protest, idk what the word for that is but it's a deliberate attempt to shift focus from the issues at hand

^ ^ ^

The difference is that I think Palestinian suffering and Israeli crimes against humanity are real.

then post like it instead of re-posting some Hasbara-addled, anti-ceasefire tweet that makes unsubstantiated claims.

out-of-print LaserDisc edition (sleeve)
Posted: 11 January 2024 at 23:43:37
felicity I am so tired of your piously disingenuous concern trolling

5 children are dying every hour in Gaza but let's wring our hands about some (alleged) insults in a meeting, or a sign on a backpack, or wtf ever

Seriously, last post I remember you making about the situation was you jumping on man alive to call him pro genocide. Probably comes across better if you’re actually posting about the dying children rather than leaping down the throats of Jewish posters, regardless of what you feel about what or how they’re posting, since you’re so interested in concern trolling.

Not sure if you are addressing that to me, but there was very little discussion of this a few weeks ago

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-islamic-jihad-reject-giving-up-power-return-permanent-ceasefire-egyptian-2023-12-25/

― c u (crüt), Monday, December 25, 2023 8:24 AM bookmarkflaglink

CAIRO, Dec 25 (Reuters) - Hamas and the allied Islamic Jihad have rejected an Egyptian proposal that they relinquish power in the Gaza Strip in return for a permanent ceasefire, two Egyptian security sources told Reuters on Monday.

Two officials from Hamas and the Islamic Jihad groups later separately denied what the sources said about the talks.

Izzat al-Rishq, a member of Hamas' political bureau, added: "There can be no negotiations without a complete stop to the aggression."

"The Hamas leadership is aiming with all its might for a complete, not temporary, end to the aggression and massacres of our people," he said, referring to the more than 20,000 Palestinians killed during the 11-week war with Israel.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, a senior Islamic Jihad official familiar with the Cairo talks echoed al-Rishq's denial.

The Egyptian sources said that both Hamas and Islamic Jihad, which have been holding separate talks with Egyptian mediators in Cairo, had rejected offering any concessions beyond the possible release of more hostages seized on Oct. 7 when militants broke into southern Israel, killing 1,200 people.

Egypt proposed a "vision" rather than a concrete plan, also backed by Qatari mediators, that would involve a ceasefire in exchange for the release of more hostages, and lead to a broader agreement involving a permanent ceasefire along with an overhaul of leadership in Gaza, which is currently led by Hamas.

Egypt proposed elections while offering assurances to Hamas that its members would not be chased or prosecuted, but the Islamist group rejected any concessions other than hostage releases, the sources said. More than 100 hostages are still believed to be held in Gaza.

ISLAMIC JIHAD
Islamic Jihad, which also holds hostages in custody in Gaza, has echoed that stance.

An Islamic Jihad delegation led by its leader Ziad al-Nakhala is currently in Cairo to exchange ideas with Egyptian officials over prisoner swap offers and other issues, but an official said the group had set an end to Israel's military offensive as a pre-condition for further negotiations.

Islamic Jihad insists, the official said, that any prisoner swap must be based on the principle of "all for all", meaning the release of all hostages held in Gaza by Hamas and Islamic Jihad in return for freeing all Palestinians jailed in Israel.

Separately, Islamic Jihad official Ali Abu Shaheen later told Reuters by phone from Lebanon: "The movement reaffirmed its position that the aggression against the Palestinian people must be ended and that it wasn't in favour of temporary truces."

Abu Shaheen confirmed that Egyptian officials had presented a set of ideas but did not provide any details.

"The Egyptian brothers presented a paper, of ideas and general principles for discussion. We will study those ideas at the level of the leadership of the movement and in consultation with other Palestinian factions to reach a unified position," said Abu Shaheen.

Before the war, there were 5,250 Palestinians in Israeli jails, but the number has now grown to around 10,000 as Israel has arrested thousands more in the West Bank and Gaza since Oct 7, according to the Palestinian Prisoners Association.

Overnight into Monday, Gaza endured one of its deadliest nights in the 11-week-old war. Palestinian health officials said at least 70 people had been killed by an Israeli airstrike in the centre of the tiny, besieged Gaza Strip.

Reporting by Ahmed Mohamed Hassan and Nidal al-Mughrabi, Writing by Sarah El Safty Editing by Gareth Jones

I've been following the ceasefire reporting and rumors.

Today there was a story that Hamas said the hostages won't go home alive unless there is a complete cessation of hostilities in Gaza.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/10/world/middleeast/israel-hostages-hamas-gaza.html?smid=url-share

We can discuss that or not.

oh I see you were talking to sleeve

anyway, yeah, I mean just jumping in and posting "FP" to Jewish posters who are feeling the brunt of antisemitism is probably nagl

Yes I did see that link crüt dumped without context. I wasn’t sure, as I have never understood, why the children of Gaza needed to pay with their lives for it so I didn’t bother commenting.

I'm not litigating anything, I'd just prefer to stick to a factual account. However it does seem an odd choice to evidence the alleged pig noises with a clip of someone making the allegation rather than a clip of people making the pig noises (generally how evidence works). Especially as it seems this is taken from a recording of the event.

One interpretation might be that the protestors were booing him for making false allegations about them in order to ascribe antisemitic motives to opposition to the ongoing violence against civilians in Gaza and the west bank.

It's really difficult to say one way or another, but far from clear based on the clip. I guess I'd say it's why these arbitrary snippets of encysted controversy sourced from twitter are not really helpful. Perhaps they make some sort of sense to someone but they seem incoherent and inscrutable. All I can see is a video of someone making a rather ludicrous claim (a motion that explicitly condemns antisemitism in its wording promotes antisemitism actually emboldens antisemitism because it calls for the end of a terrifying bombing campaign against a starving captive civilian population of mostly children). What is the reference to qanon? What am I to take from this video???

The children of Gaza shouldn't have to pay with their lives, and neither should the children of anywhere.

I mean you were saying that the negotiations should be done by an entity other than the US. Those negotiations are apparently being attempted by Egypt and Qatar, so it seemed exactly what you were suggesting.

Was I?

fwiw I think the Qanon thing the tweet was talking about was one of the protesters yelling “Epstein didn’t kill himself!” Which is obviously not an idea exclusive to Qanon, but is a sort of weird thing to yell at that meeting.