Seinfeld: Classic or Dud

Don't forget Jerry was oogling her first and wanted George to join in. Elaine calls him out on this IIRC, making the specific point that she's only 15. Elaine was pretty awesome in those early seasons - on the DVD commentary, Dreyfus even points out that early on, Elaine was actually very principled and very outspoken about her beliefs, and for whatever reason all that went away by the show's end.

the reason was the ppl she was hanging out with so much imo

I guess that explains the Republican Party's continual descent.

Re: Jerry, it's actually pretty sensible that a confident benign sociopath, without much in the way of human emotions, would have no trouble getting lots of dates (with zero lasting relationships).

this is probably true but the reason it comes off so weird to me in the show is that Jerry is such a bad actor, in fact he almost certainly has to be the worst adult lead actor in sitcom history. it still works because he's funny, obviously most of what he does in the show is just a version of his standup act, but occassionally he has to actually express a real emotion and he's so bad at it you almost can't tell what the show's going for sometimes. like even when really bad things happen to him like his car getting stolen or his NBC deal getting cancelled all he can ever express is mild annoyance. Jason Alexander on the other hand might actually be the best sitcom actor ever, I think he's basically perfect in every single scene he's in.

Re: Jerry's dates, it's been openly discussed in at least a few articles on the show, but there was indeed a conscious decision to have Jerry constantly be with very attractive women. Granted, you see this with nearly every TV show so it's not like it was an unusual decision, but Seinfeld definitely wanted to be a "ladies' man" on his show

imo one saving grace here is that a massive share of jerry's girlfriends on seinfeld were also super talented and went on to have hugely successful careers. the list is insanely stacked. mariska hargitay, catherine keener, lauren graham, daphne from fraser, courtney cox, terri hatcher and marcia cross from desperate housewives, megan mullaly and debra messing, jeniffer coolidge (as the masseuse who won't give jerry a massage), sarah silverman, kristin davis

wtf is he on about

Jerry Seinfeld says TV comedy is being hurt by "the extreme left and P.C. crap, and people worrying so much about offending other people."

“It used to be, you would go home at the end of the day, most people would go, ‘Oh, “Cheers” is on. Oh, “MASH” is on. Oh, “Mary Tyler Moore”… pic.twitter.com/IvHYO48CGp

— Variety (@Variety) April 29, 2024

weird to complain about this when the co-creator of your show just ended his *own* sitcom after like 24 years.

also none of the shows he's naming were even contemporaries of Seinfeld, they're all like 50 years old and still in reruns, also none of them were known for being edgy, just a baffling statement all around

Uh, MASH and MTM were pretty edgy for their time.

The whole interview is on the New Yorker website now and it's worth reading. (Are you surprised a tweet doesn't capture nuance?) There's a slight element of grumpy-old-man-ism to maybe three sentences, but then he talks about it as an issue of craft, not one of morality — culture changes, and as he puts it, the gates get moved like when you're skiing a slalom course, and your job is to make it through the gates, wherever they move to.

I'm not a fan of his humor — I don't find his jokes funny — but his understanding of comedy as a craft is something I always find interesting.

Uh, MASH and MTM were pretty edgy for their time.

right, but nowadays I don't think there's any element of "you couldn't get away with that now" to them

suppose I should read the full interview though

I still find a lot of his old bits very funny. He put out an album in 1998 called I'm Telling You for the Last Time that my wife and I still pull from regularly. It's kind of like Lebowski, it's been transformed into a kind of familect.

I also really admire him for throwing out all of his old material after that tour (hence the name) and starting from scratch.

Yeah, that was a good interview, even for someone who's never followed his shows or other projects. xps

Jason Alexander on the other hand might actually be the best sitcom actor ever, I think he's basically perfect in every single scene he's in.

OTMFM

Julia Louis-Dreyfus was also extremely good.

Michael Richards . . . does anyone remember him?

yeah ok the interview is good, but "the extreme left is ruining comedy" is still an incredibly dumb take, as is stuff like this:

Isn’t that what “Curb” is all about?

Yeah. Larry was grandfathered in. He’s old enough so that—“I don’t have to observe those rules, because I started before you made those rules.” We did an episode of the series in the nineties where Kramer decides to start a business of having homeless people pull rickshaws because, as he says, “They’re outside anyway.” Do you think I could get that episode on the air today?

yes, I think you could, in fact It's Always Sunny gets away with stuff a lot wilder than that on a regular basis

I don't watch it, but it seems to me that people don't talk about Always Sunny nearly enough. It's insane how long that show has been running, and the type of things they've been able to pull off.

I did stand-up last night as "1990s Jerry Seinfeld Doing Bits About His 17-Year-Old Girlfriend" pic.twitter.com/hFKr7ie6JP

— Jeremy Kaplowitz (@jeremysmiles) October 29, 2019

I mean he's saying only Larry could do the Palestinian Chicken episode because he's been "grandfathered in", well It's Always Sunny did "The Gang Goes Jihad" in Season *2* and it's probably an even better satire of the situation than the Curb episode is

I think part of it is Seinfeld (the person) came up in a monoculture. There's really nothing you "can't say," because everybody's just talking to their little cult of fans. Like I say, It's Always Sunny has been on for a million years, but nobody really talks about it and there's no universe in which it attains the cultural omnipresence that Seinfeld (or Friends, or MASH) had at the time. And the only reason people are at all concerned with what Jerry Seinfeld has to say now is that Seinfeld the show was so gigantic at the time. If he was the star of some sitcom that ran for two seasons in the 90s and then got cancelled, no one would care about him now and he could say whatever he wanted to the 5000 people watching his YouTube channel or whatever, and the rest of the population of Earth would have no idea who he was at all.

Remember that show MASH that made fun of the US military and had a cross-dressing corporal on it? Yeah, we can't have stuff like that on TV anymore because the extreme left controls television programming and they cancelled it because they thought people would find it offensive... Ok Jerry, whatever you say.

one funny/odd thing about 'monoculture' as it applies to sitcoms now is that it manifests itself mostly through memes, like there are certain screengrabs of It's Always Sunny which I think are way more famous than the show itself. ditto for the "I Want It That Way" cold open scene from Brooklyn Nine Nine or like, that photo of Kevin James shrugging his shoulders on the King of Queens set. one thing I do find irritating about a lot of modern sitcoms (at least the ones that existed 5-10 years ago) is they all tried really hard to create these sorts of viral moments, like every episode had to have at least one thing that was giphy fodder

his complaint sounds more about TV monoculture not existing anymore. like, his reasoning in the full interview for there not being funny shows anymore is that there were no new sitcoms on the fall schedule of the four major networks. I can't remember the last time I've even thought about TV in terms of "fall schedule" or "major networks". I imagine I too would find TV utterly depressing if that was the extent of my TV world

his understanding of comedy as a craft is something I always find interesting.

I do as well, but it's a kind of interest that isn't very flattering to Seinfeld or comedy as an artform! Seinfeld is pretty similar to Scott Adams in that they're openly cold-blooded and mechanical about their approach and seem not to care at all if the material has any meaning to them. Just follow these steps every day, check the x's off the calendar, and by the end of the month you'll have something mediocre but viable, then do it all over again next month, forever.

The interview he did on Colbert a few years back where he seemed baffled that Colbert couldn’t still appreciate any of Cosby’s old records - that was the moment I decided to stop paying attention to Seinfeld the person. It was the prime example of just how highly he regards “craft”, as if one’s humanity doesn’t factor in at all.

There's a profile somewhere - I think the NY Times? - where the reporter is meeting him at a restaurant and is taken aback when Seinfeld is immediately shitty to someone who recognizes him. Not only does he own it, he keeps on complaining about people who try to be nice to him, making it clear he doesn't need to make any more friends and is basically resentful that anyone would think he'd want to know them. Funny guy, but a monstrously egotistical piece of shit.

He kinda reminds me of 00's new atheists. Same temperament, using reason as an excuse to be a jerk

I watched some of his latest Netflix special when I was visiting my mom last month, and I was struck by how misanthropic his act felt. Obviously, annoyance with social norms and pieties has always been part of his comedy, but now it just seems like "I'm old and rich and I have no interest in changing who I am or learning anything new." Not very relatable.

Spectacular, brilliant in its perfect underplaying. [Hidden text. Tap to view]

I watched some of his latest Netflix special when I was visiting my mom last month, and I was struck by how misanthropic his act felt. Obviously, annoyance with social norms and pieties has always been part of his comedy, but now it just seems like "I'm old and rich and I have no interest in changing who I am or learning anything new." Not very relatable.

Seinfeld is pretty similar to Scott Adams in that they're openly cold-blooded and mechanical about their approach and seem not to care at all if the material has any meaning to them.

The interview he did on Colbert a few years back where he seemed baffled that Colbert couldn’t still appreciate any of Cosby’s old records - that was the moment I decided to stop paying attention to Seinfeld the person. It was the prime example of just how highly he regards “craft”, as if one’s humanity doesn’t factor in at all.

I feel that this is what Seinfeld (the sitcom) is all about, a stand-up comedian who can only see the world and other people in terms of comedy and is alienated from society as a result.

Like how there's something dehumanising in doing an impression of someone, everyone likes to feel that they are a unique, complex human being with a soul, and an doing an impression of them is like saying - no, I can imitate certain inflections and habits and physical characteristics and create something that everyone recognises as 'you', all you are is the sum total of all of your various mundane characteristics, there's no transcendent, ineffable essence. And there's this running joke in the show where Jerry is dating this beautiful woman but he becomes fixated on some particular habit or characteristic she has to the point he can't be attracted to her anymore, like he can't turn off this comedian's instinct to turn people into types, or to mine them for comedy fodder, even in his private life.

I think this is why Seinfeld being such a bad actor works in the context of the show, he's a comedian surrounded by actual human beings but unable to connect with them, in a different register to everyone around him. It makes it feel modern too, despite what he says about it being something you wouldn't be able to make today, like how millenials and zoomers are very self-conscious about what 'types' they belong to, inclined to neurotically categorise themselves and others to the point that every individual trait or behaviour indicates an 'identity'

a low-key strand in seinfeld is that within the show jerry-the-comedian isn't actually a “good” comedian

larry david certainly knows this lol but maybe jerry never did

He's a bit like Franzen - if he wasn't a brusque asshole with a limited superego, he's be less interesting/effective

I think that combination of ego, neediness and curiosity -- he does seem curious about other people, despite his pathological need to keep his distance -- makes him a fun interviewer on his car show

Seinfeld is just v lucky he got to be in the show Seinfeld.

he acknowledges that though, whenever he talks about the show's success (including in this very interview) he mentions that it was maybe a decent fringe thing that only got elevated into what it was thanks to the other 3 leads

there was a good bit with him on Stern where he talks about a potential 10th season and how much money he was offered, and how he couldn't do it because he knew they couldn't maintain that level of quality. he likens it to a comedian who does a great hour, and then goes on for an extra 15 minutes, leaving everyone thinking "he was good, but I got tired of him in the end", and how that was the one reaction he was desperate to avoid.

Lol I might read it. Hate how the most annoying, predictable bits are always pulled out.

that's a shame, here's one more (from the gq interview)

There’s nothing I revile quite as much as a dilettante. I don’t like doing something to a mediocre level. It’s great to be 70, because you really get to preach with some authority: Get good at something. That’s it. Everything else is bullshit.

happy to be reviled by this guy.

i've seen enough episodes of the show over the years, it's a very good show. but i started watching s1 recently and the standup bits were the worst "men like sports! women like handbags!" shit imaginable.

he's worse than kenny bania!

yeah the standup in the show is pretty bad, though I think Seinfeld's actual stand-up routine is pretty funny. idk if that's on purpose or not, as mentioned a few posts ago one of the best running jokes in the show is that Jerry is a hack comedian who nobody really likes. the only people who defend him are his parents. they have the Kenny Bania character who clearly is supposed to be a stand-in for Jerry, a guy whose entire life is like a bad stand-up act. and of course Jerry hates him.

they establish that pretty early too, I think one of the first S2 episodes is the one where he tries to break up with a girl because she won't stop boring him with banal observations about her day, only to have her break up with him first upon seeing his stand-up act

hardcore dilettante to thread.

The Curb finale was very cute. Wonder if I'll ever see another thing he's doing.

they have the Kenny Bania character who clearly is supposed to be a stand-in for Jerry

One of my favorite Seinfeld moments is when he offers to write for Bania and the result is the terrible "What's the deal with Ovaltine" routine.

the only reason you "couldn't do" the homeless rickshaw bit now is it would read as too obvious satire of half of Big Tech's business model

Great soref post up there.

It’s great to be 70, because you really get to preach with some authority: Get good at something. That’s it. Everything else is bullshit.

Jerry is certainly out of touch with humor and all that but I have to say he's right on the money here. Some good life advice. Hate admitting this

nah it's a fine life to be shit at everything

the creator of Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee boldly comes out against doing something at a mediocre level

You can be a dilettante and get good at things, just seems mean hating on a harmless personality type.

I understand the appeal of Getting Good At Something, as a way to infuse some meaning into our intrinsically random existence it's not the worst option, as ever the problem is when you start judging others based on this.

like i said i hate admitting it and I am judging him so