Israel/Palestine post 10/7 - follow-on events/thoughts as relate to other countries

It's the Livingston Formulation.

I didn't think tweet particularly clear either.

I did see a vid from a few weeks ago, also from SF at some kind of housing forum, which I think fits the description much more than this one. I didn't post it, but I'll try find it

If that is the motion at the bottom of the screen it seems... uncontroversial?

If the motion is not controversial, why boo the man and make pig noises at the hearing?

Even the UN passed a resolutiom calling on Hamas to release the hostages.

The motion is obviously controversial, whether it should be or not, because the clip is of a person arguing against it. The clip does not explain the speaker's reasoning for thinking that way though, nor again does anything in it relate back to the tweet's suggestion of a "qanon problem", so as I said I don't find it clear in any way.

If the motion is not controversial, why boo the man and make pig noises at the hearing?

“my relatives were killed and so the Israeli government should be able to keep up with its genocide and we shouldn’t say anything about it”

this is a shit point.

This is the text of the resolution as it passed: https://sfgov.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=12564830&GUID=06E799CA-0C22-49FE-992E-C2766A7C4625

Here's a news report on the hearing: https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/sf-ceasefire-resolution-gaza-israel-war-supervisor-18598447.php

this is a shit point.

ok, boner.

which is not to say this instinct is wrong, but that it requires much much more.

Much more what?

This isn’t complicated. The resolution condemns Hamas and asks for return of hostages. It also asks for an immediate ceasefire and a state where both Israelis and Palestinians can thrive.

The guy in felicity’s tweet doesn’t agree, and seems to believe that any criticism of Israel is anti-semitic, meanwhile the Israeli government is purposely starving the population of Gaza after murdering 30,000 people. Fuck him and his opinions and any response to those opinions other than condemnation.

Nah, you can be against killing innocent people and also not make pig noises at victims' families.

It should be noted that mocking jews by reference to their relationship with pigs has strong anti-antisemitic vibes.

^ mentally remove one anti plz

Did you mean to have two antis in there

Ha

Is there a video where the protestors are heard making pig noises?

The guy in the video said it. I believed it, but if you want to litigate that, I guess that proves my point.

What, that we should believe everything that someone who condones genocide says just because he’s Jewish? Please. There are no pig noises in that video. His point is ridiculous, and he’s a moron.

you'll agree with me then that pig noises directed at a Jewish person who has lost family is antisemitic?

y/n

felicity I am so tired of your piously disingenuous concern trolling

5 children are dying every hour in Gaza but let's wring our hands about some (alleged) insults in a meeting, or a sign on a backpack, or wtf ever

it's like the people who focus on a single broken window after a large protest, idk what the word for that is but it's a deliberate attempt to shift focus from the issues at hand

^ ^ ^

The difference is that I think Palestinian suffering and Israeli crimes against humanity are real.

then post like it instead of re-posting some Hasbara-addled, anti-ceasefire tweet that makes unsubstantiated claims.

out-of-print LaserDisc edition (sleeve)
Posted: 11 January 2024 at 23:43:37
felicity I am so tired of your piously disingenuous concern trolling

5 children are dying every hour in Gaza but let's wring our hands about some (alleged) insults in a meeting, or a sign on a backpack, or wtf ever

Seriously, last post I remember you making about the situation was you jumping on man alive to call him pro genocide. Probably comes across better if you’re actually posting about the dying children rather than leaping down the throats of Jewish posters, regardless of what you feel about what or how they’re posting, since you’re so interested in concern trolling.

Not sure if you are addressing that to me, but there was very little discussion of this a few weeks ago

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-islamic-jihad-reject-giving-up-power-return-permanent-ceasefire-egyptian-2023-12-25/

― c u (crüt), Monday, December 25, 2023 8:24 AM bookmarkflaglink

CAIRO, Dec 25 (Reuters) - Hamas and the allied Islamic Jihad have rejected an Egyptian proposal that they relinquish power in the Gaza Strip in return for a permanent ceasefire, two Egyptian security sources told Reuters on Monday.

Two officials from Hamas and the Islamic Jihad groups later separately denied what the sources said about the talks.

Izzat al-Rishq, a member of Hamas' political bureau, added: "There can be no negotiations without a complete stop to the aggression."

"The Hamas leadership is aiming with all its might for a complete, not temporary, end to the aggression and massacres of our people," he said, referring to the more than 20,000 Palestinians killed during the 11-week war with Israel.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, a senior Islamic Jihad official familiar with the Cairo talks echoed al-Rishq's denial.

The Egyptian sources said that both Hamas and Islamic Jihad, which have been holding separate talks with Egyptian mediators in Cairo, had rejected offering any concessions beyond the possible release of more hostages seized on Oct. 7 when militants broke into southern Israel, killing 1,200 people.

Egypt proposed a "vision" rather than a concrete plan, also backed by Qatari mediators, that would involve a ceasefire in exchange for the release of more hostages, and lead to a broader agreement involving a permanent ceasefire along with an overhaul of leadership in Gaza, which is currently led by Hamas.

Egypt proposed elections while offering assurances to Hamas that its members would not be chased or prosecuted, but the Islamist group rejected any concessions other than hostage releases, the sources said. More than 100 hostages are still believed to be held in Gaza.

ISLAMIC JIHAD
Islamic Jihad, which also holds hostages in custody in Gaza, has echoed that stance.

An Islamic Jihad delegation led by its leader Ziad al-Nakhala is currently in Cairo to exchange ideas with Egyptian officials over prisoner swap offers and other issues, but an official said the group had set an end to Israel's military offensive as a pre-condition for further negotiations.

Islamic Jihad insists, the official said, that any prisoner swap must be based on the principle of "all for all", meaning the release of all hostages held in Gaza by Hamas and Islamic Jihad in return for freeing all Palestinians jailed in Israel.

Separately, Islamic Jihad official Ali Abu Shaheen later told Reuters by phone from Lebanon: "The movement reaffirmed its position that the aggression against the Palestinian people must be ended and that it wasn't in favour of temporary truces."

Abu Shaheen confirmed that Egyptian officials had presented a set of ideas but did not provide any details.

"The Egyptian brothers presented a paper, of ideas and general principles for discussion. We will study those ideas at the level of the leadership of the movement and in consultation with other Palestinian factions to reach a unified position," said Abu Shaheen.

Before the war, there were 5,250 Palestinians in Israeli jails, but the number has now grown to around 10,000 as Israel has arrested thousands more in the West Bank and Gaza since Oct 7, according to the Palestinian Prisoners Association.

Overnight into Monday, Gaza endured one of its deadliest nights in the 11-week-old war. Palestinian health officials said at least 70 people had been killed by an Israeli airstrike in the centre of the tiny, besieged Gaza Strip.

Reporting by Ahmed Mohamed Hassan and Nidal al-Mughrabi, Writing by Sarah El Safty Editing by Gareth Jones

I've been following the ceasefire reporting and rumors.

Today there was a story that Hamas said the hostages won't go home alive unless there is a complete cessation of hostilities in Gaza.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/10/world/middleeast/israel-hostages-hamas-gaza.html?smid=url-share

We can discuss that or not.

oh I see you were talking to sleeve

anyway, yeah, I mean just jumping in and posting "FP" to Jewish posters who are feeling the brunt of antisemitism is probably nagl

Yes I did see that link crüt dumped without context. I wasn’t sure, as I have never understood, why the children of Gaza needed to pay with their lives for it so I didn’t bother commenting.

I'm not litigating anything, I'd just prefer to stick to a factual account. However it does seem an odd choice to evidence the alleged pig noises with a clip of someone making the allegation rather than a clip of people making the pig noises (generally how evidence works). Especially as it seems this is taken from a recording of the event.

One interpretation might be that the protestors were booing him for making false allegations about them in order to ascribe antisemitic motives to opposition to the ongoing violence against civilians in Gaza and the west bank.

It's really difficult to say one way or another, but far from clear based on the clip. I guess I'd say it's why these arbitrary snippets of encysted controversy sourced from twitter are not really helpful. Perhaps they make some sort of sense to someone but they seem incoherent and inscrutable. All I can see is a video of someone making a rather ludicrous claim (a motion that explicitly condemns antisemitism in its wording promotes antisemitism actually emboldens antisemitism because it calls for the end of a terrifying bombing campaign against a starving captive civilian population of mostly children). What is the reference to qanon? What am I to take from this video???

The children of Gaza shouldn't have to pay with their lives, and neither should the children of anywhere.

I mean you were saying that the negotiations should be done by an entity other than the US. Those negotiations are apparently being attempted by Egypt and Qatar, so it seemed exactly what you were suggesting.

Was I?

fwiw I think the Qanon thing the tweet was talking about was one of the protesters yelling “Epstein didn’t kill himself!” Which is obviously not an idea exclusive to Qanon, but is a sort of weird thing to yell at that meeting.

What is the reference to qanon? What am I to take from this video???

― plax (ico), Thursday, January 11, 2024 4:17 PM bookmarkflaglink

Honestly, there is an antisemitism problem on the Left. The Israel/Palestine situation has revealed an explosion of it.

It's a problem in the US because the fascist Right has stepped in to fill the vacuum. Left leaning and liberal people like me are pretty disgusted by both sides. I do truly think that it does not help the cause of a Palestinian state. But getting tripped up over word salads and each side accusing the other of bad faith is just not helpful imo.

XxpThat is a very weird thing to yell. I didn't hear it but if it's in there it only adds to the general inscrutability of this 1:21 clip and attaching a fractured multi authored commentary to it.

Xp that sounds possible but I'm not sure why you think this clip speaks to any of that let alone evidences it in any way

Was I?

― mojo dojo casas house (gyac), Thursday, January 11, 2024 4:20 PM bookmarkflaglink

you posted this:

This is a very good piece.

While the martyrdom of over two million innocent Palestinian civilians continues, despite the temporary ceasefire and the exchange of hostages for Palestinian prisoners, a bigger question looms: who will run what remains of the Gaza Strip after the guns fall silent? Netanyahu has declared that he wants the IDF to keep indefinite security control of the strip but no one in Israel wants to assume all the responsibilities of an occupying power again.

Meanwhile, his own grip on power at home is weakening. He faces strong popular opposition for his failure to prevent the horrendous Hamas attack and, more generally, for making Israel the most dangerous place in the world for Jews to live. He is also embroiled in a corruption trial on charges—all of which he denies—including fraud, breaching public trust and accepting bribes. Politically speaking, he is a dead man walking. His days in power are numbered and there is a chance that he will end up in prison. But he is still the prime minister, and his clearly stated aim is to eradicate Hamas and to prevent it from returning to power ever again. So, who will govern the Gaza Strip after the Israeli army leaves?

&
This ghastly war has also exposed the ruthless hypocrisy of the western leaders, their blatant double standards, their indifference to Palestinian rights and their complicity in Israel’s war crimes.

&

This is not a conflict between two equal sides but between an occupying power and a subjugated population. And there is absolutely no military solution to this conflict. Israel cannot have security without peace with its neighbours. A negotiated political compromise, as in Northern Ireland, is the only way forward. That settlement required external intervention, as does this one. Here, however, the US cannot serve as the sole broker because its pronounced bias in favour of Israel would make it a dishonest one. Ever since 1967, it has arrogated to itself a monopoly over the Israeli-Palestinian peace process but failed to put pressure on Israel to compromise. What is needed now is a new international coalition led by the UN which includes the US and EU but also Arab states and members of the global south.

Pretty bleak conclusion but very comprehensive.
― mojo dojo casas house (gyac), Wednesday, December 27, 2023 3:00 AM bookmarkflaglink

Yeah that’s a lot more comprehensive and powerful than a couple of countries.

Oh for sure. It was responding to the idea that the US cannot broker a peace without the help of Arab states.

I didn't think the previous ceasefire was solely brokered by the US anyway.

https://www.msnbc.com/top-stories/latest/desantis-israel-debate-gaza-palestinian-removed-rcna133428

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis suggested Wednesday that he would support the "mass removal of Palestinians" from Gaza if Israel's leaders decide "they need to do that."

“We gotta support Israel. In word and in deed, in public and in private, and they need to be able to finish the job," DeSantis said at a CNN debate with Nikki Haley. "I think to be a good ally, you back them in the decisions that they’re making with respect to Gaza."

When pressed about his stance on the mass removal of civilians from Gaza, he replied: "As president, I am not going to tell them to do that. I think there’s a lot of issues with that. But if they make the calculation that to avert a second Holocaust, they need to do that — I think some of these Palestinian Arabs, Saudi Arabia should take some, Egypt should take some."

Despicable

I had been thinking about this all day. This struck so many chords with me, related to what I have talked about in the other threads. I hadn’t watched much more than a couple of clips but I read her Matrix Chambers profile and noticed that she was involved in the ICJ case against Serbia as well.

Blinne Ní Ghrálaigh was inspired to become a lawyer after learning about Majella O’Hare, a 12 y/o child from Armagh who was shot in the back & killed by a British soldier in 1976

She went crying to her mother and her mother said, ‘Do something about it’

Now look where she is https://t.co/yK5irb4s9r pic.twitter.com/HwlO1aTE1g

— Michael Magee (@michaelmagee__) January 11, 2024

Speaking of the fascist Right

xp

I didn't think tweet particularly clear either.

I did see a vid from a few weeks ago, also from SF at some kind of housing forum, which I think fits the description much more than this one. I didn't post it, but I'll try find it

Last night the Oakland City Council voted on a resolution to call for a ceasefire.

A city council member tried to insert language condemning Hamas.

This was the reaction… pic.twitter.com/r7aTb2mkrQ

— Yashar Ali 🐘 (@yashar) November 28, 2023

It was Oakland not SF. I think if a clip is being posted suggesting the left has a qanon problem, this might be closer to it than the one posted earlier, which wasn't all that clear.

I didn't post it at the time, as a single council meeting in Oakland isn't necessarily representative of anything, and I don't know if the people in the video are on the left or not either, but it does wander into it "Hamas didn't do it but it was justified anyway" territory

I've read South Africa's petition in the IJC for genocide. Pretty horrific allegations. The religious rhetoric quoted there is pretty appalling.

It condems the Hamas attack and reiterates several times the need for unconditional release of hostages. That is not part of the formal proceeding for legal reasons that are explained in the petition.

Calling upon all member states to do everything they can to prevent further crimes against humanity seems like a pretty unassailable goal.

"Honestly, there is an antisemitism problem on the Left. The Israel/Palestine situation has revealed an explosion of it."

But again pulling this from an account which does concern trolling on the left, isn't interested in the way the left talks about this, is against South Africa presenting their case to the ICJ in the first place, and likes peddling the misinformation you are so worried about is a cack-handed way of showing it.

And the left isn't in power in the US or the UK. If anything it's people with centre and left leaning politics who are. What are they doing to stop this genocide?

I don't know if the people in the video are on the left or not either, but it does wander into it "Hamas didn't do it but it was justified anyway" territory

― anvil, Friday, 12 January 2024 bookmarkflaglink

I've seen that clip contested on twitter in a fairly civilised discussion that I've no idea how to find it now.

In any case the "left" has all of these factions, a lot of whom don't like each other to the extent they aren't seen by the other as having left-wing politics.

We sure live in a fragmented, burning world.

*contested by people saying "they are not on the left" but I'd rather march than fact check every single thing someone does on a video thousands of miles away to give as 'evidence' of a problem, which has actually been documented and written about in left wing circles.

I think giving the example of things happening in local political processes is always going to misleading because it is often depicting rooms full of people who absolutely hate each other for interpersonal reasons that are baroque and completely unreadable to an outsider but acted out through the ostensible litigation of various 'political' disputes. Who knows what kind of internecine conflict is getting acted out in any of these videos, possibly to the degree it is for many actors overshadowing what they 'seem' to be talking about? I appreciate that is true to more or less degree in all contexts (ilx!) but local politics is an especially determinative and poisonous one.

We've already gone through this whole process of the vilification of the left in the UK. It works, if you want it to work, and you end up with Keir Starmer.

For sure, I'd largely agree with that. I didn't post the video when I saw it originally, and its probably more appropriate for the "is this anti-semitism" thread anyway if it were to be posted.

I only posted it this time because I thought it fit the description better than the video posted earlier which wasn't all that clear. I agree that those people aren't necessarily on the left, thats probably largely subjective anyway