Israel/Palestine post 10/7 - follow-on events/thoughts as relate to other countries

how did we get to Germans accusing Jews of anti-semitism

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Germans_(political_current)

might have something to do with it

they just represent a more extreme and idiosyncratic version of the mainstream German POV which is that support for Israel is the means by which the German nation has morally redeemed itself (which also justifies German economic imperialism) and thus any criticism of Israel is a threat to the German Staatsräson (and German domination in Europe) - and nothing is more threatening to this way of thinking than Jewish people who won't perform their assigned role in the German national redemption story

unlike the mainstream the Antideutsche express this through explicitly anti-German rhetoric but they are still so fucking German it's painful and they're just as antisemitic, islamophobic and colonialist as the mainstream if not more so

also worth remembering that denazification is a myth and that the west and the east both refused to deal with themselves in differently bad ways and modern Germany is like a synthesis of both approaches (very broadly speaking - denial/justification and displacement/projection)

^ ^ ^

denazification is a myth

true. it was never possible to expunge nazism. the war crime trials and executions in Nuremberg, the strict censorship of nazi symbolism/propaganda, ritual denunciations of the past, and other denazification tools have at best served as guard rails to limit the reach of nazi sentiments and open up space for other ideologies to enter. the results have been far from perfect but mostly acceptable. Among EU countries Germany's current level of fascist sentiment seems no worse than 'about average'.

I suppose one can see 20% for the AfD as "about average" in a European context but "mostly acceptable" it ain't

"Denazification is a myth" is less about whether a good job was done in banning swastikas and more about the amount of nazis who ended up in cushy positions of economic and political power in the postwar era I'd say, possibly not a topic for this thread tho

the AfD at 20% in the country that spawned nazism, while fascism is currently flourishing in a dozen countries that never even tried to 'de-nazi' themselves shows that the efforts to limit its reach in Germany did work about as well as it could have in the real world, considering the country emerged from WWII saturated in nazism.

I don't even know where to start with that post.

"Nazism is at acceptable levels, I declare this denazification process a realistic success".

I'd read previously that West Germany had largely 'denazified' by the mid 1960s. Not quite sure how to quantify that, but whats the consensus on that process, and to what extent it occurred?

East Germany seems more difficult to measure. Seems more prevalent, but how much of any resurgence is a resurgence, or something which was frozen in time under Soviet influence

it didn't - the vast majority of nazis stayed in positions of power and until at least the 60s (much later in many cases) the general approach seems to have been to just not talk about it (while letting the CIA recruit the best anticommunists). even I still grew up with the notion that it was rude to ask about what my grandparents' generation might have done and this was in the 90s/00s (semi-rural bavaria but still)

the GDR did a much better job of removing nazis from publicly facing positions (while recruiting some of them into the stasi as well as funding some neo-nazis in the west) but they portrayed the Germans in general as victims of fascism and took the Moscow line on refusing to acknowledge the specificity of the genocide, while pointing to the west as the only place where the legacy of fascism lived on

Fellas.

Larry David shares his favorite episode of #CurbYourEnthusiasm. pic.twitter.com/6IKIS9PApC

— Variety (@Variety) January 31, 2024

it didn't - the vast majority of nazis stayed in positions of power and until at least the 60s

Bad wording on my part, I meant to say that by 1965-1968 most of the nazis were gone (presumably mainly through ageing out of the system?), but were newer nazis gradually replacing them during that period, so that even if the original nazis had aged out, nazis were still running some stuff, thats what I'm less clear on

it didn't - the vast majority of nazis stayed in positions of power and until at least the 60s (much later in many cases) the general approach seems to have been to just not talk about it (while letting the CIA recruit the best anticommunists). even I still grew up with the notion that it was rude to ask about what my grandparents' generation might have done and this was in the 90s/00s (semi-rural bavaria but still)

The dude that Baader Meinhof kidnapped and murdered was a SS untersturmfuhrer who then became an industry big shot in the postwar era, quite representative in a way.

(I think I only asked my grampa about the third reich once, reply was a weak "well everyone was going along with it", but I must have been like 8 so prob he didn't think I could have handled a more elaborate take. My parents did talk to me about the holocaust and Germany's responsibilities a lot, but then they were dirty hippies).

anvil, I don't think German elites in the late 60's/early 70's were particularly interested in keeping the fire of nazism alive in an overt way, which is not to say they didn't harbour fascist or anti-semitic beliefs. it's kind of a question of what "newer nazis" means within that historical context.

Bad wording on my part, I meant to say that by 1965-1968 most of the nazis were gone (presumably mainly through ageing out of the system?),

If you were in your 30s by the end of the war you were only in your 50s by the mid-60s.

https://pitchfork.com/news/robyn-fever-ray-and-other-swedish-artists-call-for-israel-ban-at-eurovision-song-contest-2024/

Honestly, if Israel is let in but Russia and Belarus aren’t, it wouldn’t be surprising but it would evidence what many of us have been saying the whole time: Palestinian lives don’t matter to Western institutions.

Also, though: why is Israel in the Eurovision contest in the first place? It isn’t in Europe?

Australia has been in it a few times and they're in completely the wrong side of the planet.

Israel's been in Eurovision since the 70s and their football team(s) play in European competitions. They don't have any friends in their immediate vicinity.

Bizarre, imho— why not just make it “The Song Contest” ffs

For the same reason only Earth women compete in "Miss Universe."

Europe isn't a continent, it's a state of white

Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan (these seem to be getting something of a pass when it comes to their activities of late), and Kazakhstan all play in European football too.

The European Broadcasting Union's a weird old beast

Robyn and Fever Ray are among more than 1,000 Swedish signatories of an open letter calling for the Eurovision Song Contest to ban Israel from the 2024 competition, the final of which takes place in the Swedish city of Malmö on May 11. Axel Boman, Refused, DJ Seinfeld, Peder Mannerfelt, and First Aid Kit are also among the signatories.

the only Seinfeld I respect

Europe isn't a continent, it's a state of white

brexit joke here

"Nazism is at acceptable levels, I declare this denazification process a realistic success".

― Daniel_Rf,

Ha ha. Now you tell us all exactly how you would have denazified Germany after WWII and why it would have realistically been an improvement. Or else just stay cute as you are. No worries.

If your ideas are really good we can try them on the USA, currently holding at roughly 40% fascists, sympathizers or enablers.

The Eurovision Songwriting Contest is open to any country that is a member of the EBU, full as well as affiliate members. Morocco's competed (once) too despite being in Africa.

Apparently one consequence of Jordan not recognizing Israel as a sovereign nation prior to 1994 is that in 1978, when it became apparent that Israel was about to win Eurovision, the Jordanian television station cut to a shot of flowers and announced to its viewers that the runner-up Belgian had won.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-21/10-controversial-eurovision-moments/6481156

wrt to the football, its possible that Saudi Arabia switches to Europe, with Russia switching over to Asia

is there a consensus about what continent the caucasus belongs to?

iirc georgia and armenia consider themselves european, if perhaps mostly for religious and/or aspirational reasons

i mean anatolia is asia (minor) and kazakhstan is central asia but also the urals are pretty far east

Geographically I think the south caucasus is Asia, but there are slivers of Georgia and possibly Azerbaijan that are geographically Europe. Kazakhstan has some parts geographically Europe too, the city of Uralsk/Oral

Astana is some trip when they make it into European competition tho

Appreciated the Germany stuff Daniel/Left, I still don't really have a handle on that at all but doesn't feel the thread for it (though I guess probably its not the thread for Eur/Asia distinctions either)

I thought symsymsym did a good job trying to tie in the tweet about Curb Your Enthusiasm with a Seinfeld reference.

Ha ha. Now you tell us all exactly how you would have denazified Germany after WWII and why it would have realistically been an improvement. Or else just stay cute as you are. No worries.

I mentioned the main omission in the postwar denazification process several times already on this thread, as did others - but you don't seem much interested in thinking about that, as it's not part of the narrative that Germany exported outside its borders.

I once went to a UEFA cup match where one of the teams was Zenik Astana, which is definitely not in Europe.

ty felicity

I took part in a peace march/protest in Savannah last weekend. It wasn't huge but turnout was bigger than I expected for a relatively small town. I was definitely the oldest dude there (47) but there may have been a couple of women older than me. Waaaay more women than men in general, and the vibes were good. I wasn't sure what to expect; my kids wanted to come but my wife and them are jewish and I didn't know what the tone of the protest would be like. We told them that this probably wouldn't be the last one and that depending on how this went they could maybe come next time.

During the march several cars honked in solidarity while a couple gave us negative feedback (thumbs down, middle finger). The "from the river to the sea" chant was used a lot. I didn't participate in that one because I'm not sure how to feel about it. There was another that went "1234 occupation no more, 5678 Israel is a terror state" that I waffled on and then went along with. There was a moment of silence for holocaust victims and all who have suffered under violent regimes (it was holocaust memorial day).

I would bring the kids next time. I could say that some of the semantics of some chants might be dubious; I know that the "river to the sea" is complicated, and I don't know if it's helpful to call Israel a terrorist state just because of the optics or whatever. But none of that is really for me to say. The leaders were Palestinian-Americans and I'm straight up white. For me to gripe about these things is kind of like coming back from a BLM protest and complaining that "I don't really think ALL cops are bastards." It made me happy that so many young people were taking part.

that's a nice report. took me a while trying to figure out what happened in the year 1234

It's when the teenage boys broke your heart

from ArtNews:

Laurie Anderson Withdraws from Visiting Professor Post at German University After Pro-Palestine Letter Resurfaces
Alex Greenberger

BY ALEX GREENBERGER

January 29, 2024 10:11am

The New York–based artist and musician Laurie Anderson said she would not take up a visiting professor position at the Folkwang University of the Arts in Essen, Germany, amid scrutiny over her views on Palestine.

Earlier this month, the school announced that Anderson, who has produced such works as the hit 1981 song “O Superman,” had been appointed its Pina Bausch Professor, a position named after a famed dancer. But since that announcement, the school appears to have reneged on its decision, citing the fact that Anderson signed a 2021 open letter that urges support for Palestine.

“To frame this as a war between two equal sides is false and misleading,” the letter reads. “Israel is the colonizing power. Palestine is colonized. This is not a conflict: this is apartheid.”

Moreover, the letter continues, “We have seen how governments in Europe and beyond recently have instated policies of open censorship, and fostered a culture of self-censorship, towards Palestinian solidarity. Conflating legitimate criticism of the State of Israel and its policies towards Palestinians with antisemitism is cynical. Racism, including antisemitism, and all forms of hate, are heinous and not welcome in the Palestinian struggle. It is time to stand up to these tactics of silencing and overcome them.”

She was one of thousands to sign the letter, whose signatories also included artists such as Nan Goldin, Kara Walker, Simone Leigh, and many more.

On Friday, the Folkwang University of the Arts issued a press release saying that Anderson would no longer be taking up the position at the school on April 1. Specifically, the release claimed that the letter “takes up boycott demands from the anti-Israel BDS movement,” even though neither the movement itself nor a boycott of Israel are ever mentioned in the text. (In Germany, BDS has been particularly controversial, with some political figures attempting to render it illegal.)

“For me the question isn’t whether my political opinions have shifted,” Anderson said in a statement. “The real question is this: Why is this question being asked in the first place? Based on this situation I withdraw from the project. My colleagues at the University and the Pina Bausch Foundation have discussed this with me at great length and we have jointly decided this is the best way forward.”

In its release, the university said the decision came amid “the context of the current discourse about freedom of art and freedom of expression.”

It was the latest such development in a country whose art scene has been roiled by the October 7 Hamas attack, with many artists who voice pro-Palestine views facing the prospect of canceled exhibitions and withdrawn opportunities.

Earlier this month, Berlin attempted to implement a funding clause reliant upon a definition of antisemitism that many said would be used to keep pro-Palestine artists from receiving money. After mass protests, the funding clause was ultimately repealed.

Folkwang

Can be abbreviated to "FU"

As an aside, I mentioned to xyzzz the last time I saw him in person that he might like Kara Walker's work.

Volkwank

I mentioned the main omission in the postwar denazification process several times already on this thread, as did others

But you did not explain how removing the entire managerial class from their positions and replacing every last one of them with people having no training or experience in running the basic components of the economy would have been an improvement in post-war Germany, other than the unspoken presumption that this action was highly desirable or even possible in a nation where most of the infrastructure was destroyed or damaged.

The question of what would result from totally removing all nazis from their positions of responsibility was certainly discussed by the people who were tasked with planning the occupation of Germany. I don't think their choice to avoid this approach was motivated by some desire to see nazis rewarded with money and power, but came from the simple realization that it couldn't be done without vastly complicating the process of delivering goods and services to the civilian population. iow, there were very real, obvious, painful and expensive drawbacks to kicking every nazi out of their position in the existing heirarchy.

Other than that, it was a great idea.

As an aside, I mentioned to xyzzz the last time I saw him in person that he might like Kara Walker's work.

― felicity, Saturday, 3 February 2024 bookmarkflaglink

Good times

Aimless, I think it is naive at best to assume they would be replaced by "people having no training or experience", as if these ppl were the only people in Germany capsble, and it is also reductive to think that the only way to curtail this power would be to fire individuals.

The fact that it wasn't done has nothing to do with either wanting to reward nazis or logistic problems fir the population but rather that these ppl would be valuable to have on your side in the coming fight against communism - c.f. the economic and political elites of Korea under Japanese occupation being given cushy positions in South Korea after the separation.

Nothing to do with logistical problems? And you call me naive.

if you can do this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Purge

you can do the other thing

not doing so was a political choice

this is a relatively uncontroversial claim, or at least I assumed it was