Israel/Palestine post 10/7 - follow-on events/thoughts as relate to other countries

Bizarre, imho— why not just make it “The Song Contest” ffs

For the same reason only Earth women compete in "Miss Universe."

Europe isn't a continent, it's a state of white

Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan (these seem to be getting something of a pass when it comes to their activities of late), and Kazakhstan all play in European football too.

The European Broadcasting Union's a weird old beast

Robyn and Fever Ray are among more than 1,000 Swedish signatories of an open letter calling for the Eurovision Song Contest to ban Israel from the 2024 competition, the final of which takes place in the Swedish city of Malmö on May 11. Axel Boman, Refused, DJ Seinfeld, Peder Mannerfelt, and First Aid Kit are also among the signatories.

the only Seinfeld I respect

Europe isn't a continent, it's a state of white

brexit joke here

"Nazism is at acceptable levels, I declare this denazification process a realistic success".

― Daniel_Rf,

Ha ha. Now you tell us all exactly how you would have denazified Germany after WWII and why it would have realistically been an improvement. Or else just stay cute as you are. No worries.

If your ideas are really good we can try them on the USA, currently holding at roughly 40% fascists, sympathizers or enablers.

The Eurovision Songwriting Contest is open to any country that is a member of the EBU, full as well as affiliate members. Morocco's competed (once) too despite being in Africa.

Apparently one consequence of Jordan not recognizing Israel as a sovereign nation prior to 1994 is that in 1978, when it became apparent that Israel was about to win Eurovision, the Jordanian television station cut to a shot of flowers and announced to its viewers that the runner-up Belgian had won.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-21/10-controversial-eurovision-moments/6481156

wrt to the football, its possible that Saudi Arabia switches to Europe, with Russia switching over to Asia

is there a consensus about what continent the caucasus belongs to?

iirc georgia and armenia consider themselves european, if perhaps mostly for religious and/or aspirational reasons

i mean anatolia is asia (minor) and kazakhstan is central asia but also the urals are pretty far east

Geographically I think the south caucasus is Asia, but there are slivers of Georgia and possibly Azerbaijan that are geographically Europe. Kazakhstan has some parts geographically Europe too, the city of Uralsk/Oral

Astana is some trip when they make it into European competition tho

Appreciated the Germany stuff Daniel/Left, I still don't really have a handle on that at all but doesn't feel the thread for it (though I guess probably its not the thread for Eur/Asia distinctions either)

I thought symsymsym did a good job trying to tie in the tweet about Curb Your Enthusiasm with a Seinfeld reference.

Ha ha. Now you tell us all exactly how you would have denazified Germany after WWII and why it would have realistically been an improvement. Or else just stay cute as you are. No worries.

I mentioned the main omission in the postwar denazification process several times already on this thread, as did others - but you don't seem much interested in thinking about that, as it's not part of the narrative that Germany exported outside its borders.

I once went to a UEFA cup match where one of the teams was Zenik Astana, which is definitely not in Europe.

ty felicity

I took part in a peace march/protest in Savannah last weekend. It wasn't huge but turnout was bigger than I expected for a relatively small town. I was definitely the oldest dude there (47) but there may have been a couple of women older than me. Waaaay more women than men in general, and the vibes were good. I wasn't sure what to expect; my kids wanted to come but my wife and them are jewish and I didn't know what the tone of the protest would be like. We told them that this probably wouldn't be the last one and that depending on how this went they could maybe come next time.

During the march several cars honked in solidarity while a couple gave us negative feedback (thumbs down, middle finger). The "from the river to the sea" chant was used a lot. I didn't participate in that one because I'm not sure how to feel about it. There was another that went "1234 occupation no more, 5678 Israel is a terror state" that I waffled on and then went along with. There was a moment of silence for holocaust victims and all who have suffered under violent regimes (it was holocaust memorial day).

I would bring the kids next time. I could say that some of the semantics of some chants might be dubious; I know that the "river to the sea" is complicated, and I don't know if it's helpful to call Israel a terrorist state just because of the optics or whatever. But none of that is really for me to say. The leaders were Palestinian-Americans and I'm straight up white. For me to gripe about these things is kind of like coming back from a BLM protest and complaining that "I don't really think ALL cops are bastards." It made me happy that so many young people were taking part.

that's a nice report. took me a while trying to figure out what happened in the year 1234

It's when the teenage boys broke your heart

from ArtNews:

Laurie Anderson Withdraws from Visiting Professor Post at German University After Pro-Palestine Letter Resurfaces
Alex Greenberger

BY ALEX GREENBERGER

January 29, 2024 10:11am

The New York–based artist and musician Laurie Anderson said she would not take up a visiting professor position at the Folkwang University of the Arts in Essen, Germany, amid scrutiny over her views on Palestine.

Earlier this month, the school announced that Anderson, who has produced such works as the hit 1981 song “O Superman,” had been appointed its Pina Bausch Professor, a position named after a famed dancer. But since that announcement, the school appears to have reneged on its decision, citing the fact that Anderson signed a 2021 open letter that urges support for Palestine.

“To frame this as a war between two equal sides is false and misleading,” the letter reads. “Israel is the colonizing power. Palestine is colonized. This is not a conflict: this is apartheid.”

Moreover, the letter continues, “We have seen how governments in Europe and beyond recently have instated policies of open censorship, and fostered a culture of self-censorship, towards Palestinian solidarity. Conflating legitimate criticism of the State of Israel and its policies towards Palestinians with antisemitism is cynical. Racism, including antisemitism, and all forms of hate, are heinous and not welcome in the Palestinian struggle. It is time to stand up to these tactics of silencing and overcome them.”

She was one of thousands to sign the letter, whose signatories also included artists such as Nan Goldin, Kara Walker, Simone Leigh, and many more.

On Friday, the Folkwang University of the Arts issued a press release saying that Anderson would no longer be taking up the position at the school on April 1. Specifically, the release claimed that the letter “takes up boycott demands from the anti-Israel BDS movement,” even though neither the movement itself nor a boycott of Israel are ever mentioned in the text. (In Germany, BDS has been particularly controversial, with some political figures attempting to render it illegal.)

“For me the question isn’t whether my political opinions have shifted,” Anderson said in a statement. “The real question is this: Why is this question being asked in the first place? Based on this situation I withdraw from the project. My colleagues at the University and the Pina Bausch Foundation have discussed this with me at great length and we have jointly decided this is the best way forward.”

In its release, the university said the decision came amid “the context of the current discourse about freedom of art and freedom of expression.”

It was the latest such development in a country whose art scene has been roiled by the October 7 Hamas attack, with many artists who voice pro-Palestine views facing the prospect of canceled exhibitions and withdrawn opportunities.

Earlier this month, Berlin attempted to implement a funding clause reliant upon a definition of antisemitism that many said would be used to keep pro-Palestine artists from receiving money. After mass protests, the funding clause was ultimately repealed.

Folkwang

Can be abbreviated to "FU"

As an aside, I mentioned to xyzzz the last time I saw him in person that he might like Kara Walker's work.

Volkwank

I mentioned the main omission in the postwar denazification process several times already on this thread, as did others

But you did not explain how removing the entire managerial class from their positions and replacing every last one of them with people having no training or experience in running the basic components of the economy would have been an improvement in post-war Germany, other than the unspoken presumption that this action was highly desirable or even possible in a nation where most of the infrastructure was destroyed or damaged.

The question of what would result from totally removing all nazis from their positions of responsibility was certainly discussed by the people who were tasked with planning the occupation of Germany. I don't think their choice to avoid this approach was motivated by some desire to see nazis rewarded with money and power, but came from the simple realization that it couldn't be done without vastly complicating the process of delivering goods and services to the civilian population. iow, there were very real, obvious, painful and expensive drawbacks to kicking every nazi out of their position in the existing heirarchy.

Other than that, it was a great idea.

As an aside, I mentioned to xyzzz the last time I saw him in person that he might like Kara Walker's work.

― felicity, Saturday, 3 February 2024 bookmarkflaglink

Good times

Aimless, I think it is naive at best to assume they would be replaced by "people having no training or experience", as if these ppl were the only people in Germany capsble, and it is also reductive to think that the only way to curtail this power would be to fire individuals.

The fact that it wasn't done has nothing to do with either wanting to reward nazis or logistic problems fir the population but rather that these ppl would be valuable to have on your side in the coming fight against communism - c.f. the economic and political elites of Korea under Japanese occupation being given cushy positions in South Korea after the separation.

Nothing to do with logistical problems? And you call me naive.

if you can do this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Purge

you can do the other thing

not doing so was a political choice

this is a relatively uncontroversial claim, or at least I assumed it was

Occupied Japan and the Red Purge would provide an excellent analogy to occupied Germany, if during WWII Japan had been a one-party totalitarian state under the Communist Party.

This is obviously not a good thread for thrashing this out, but if you all would like to thrash out the different levels of complexity surrounding denazification and the transition from WWII to the Cold War in another thread, I'd be game to explain my perspective in greater detail without continuing to clutter up this thread with this digression.

man purging is hard, what to leave in, what to take out. nazis you take out

Only if they cute

classic wsj!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GFbiJF-WgAA-eAu?format=jpg&name=small

Steven Stalinksy, executive director of MEMRI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Media_Research_Institute

it's not part of the narrative that Germany exported outside its borders.

I'm someone thats largely bought into this narrative, subconsciously at least and probably mostly via received wisdom about Germany being accepted by its neighbours in the postwar period in a way that wasn't true of Japan. So this is first time I've had that challenged (or, to be frank, really thought about it).

I'm a blank slate on it now, if there's anything you can recommend to read (or watch on YouTube), on the 1950-1973ish period

The term denazification was first coined as a legal term in 1943 by the U.S. Pentagon, intended to be applied in a narrow sense with reference to the post-war German legal system. However, it later took on a broader meaning.[1]

In late 1945 and early 1946, the emergence of the Cold War and the economic importance of Germany caused the United States in particular to lose interest in the program, somewhat mirroring the Reverse Course in American-occupied Japan. The British handed over denazification panels to the Germans in January 1946, while the Americans did likewise in March 1946. The French ran the mildest denazification effort. Denazification was carried out in an increasingly lenient and lukewarm way until being officially abolished in 1951. Additionally, the program was hugely unpopular in West Germany, where many Nazis maintained positions of power. Denazification was opposed by the new West German government of Konrad Adenauer,[2] who declared that ending the process was necessary for West German rearmament.

Quite the case.

So, #DavidMiller has won a landmark case, that says anti-zionist ideas are protected speech in the UK. This is a BIG WIN for those of us who teach on Palestine and Israel but make no mistake the Left should not support his very problematic take on
1/

— Dr. Michal Nahman (@michalnahman) February 6, 2024

"1/"

lol thanks captain 2018

On the danger of the Super Bowl ad:

https://therealnews.com/patriots-owner-robert-kraft-buys-7-million-pro-israel-super-bowl-ad-during-gaza-genocide

There’s also the propaganda ad from the state of Israel itself, all while they’re bombing the shit out of a captive civilian population in Rafah.

The depths of the cynicism and barbarity know no
bounds.

A serious/news podcaster got in touch with me a few years ago to say he liked my Centuries of Sound project, we had a chat over zoom and it turned out we had some other interests in common, so made some vague plans to collaborate which came to nothing, but we kept in touch anyway. Seemed to be a good guy basically.

Then from October he began posting rabidly pro-Israel stuff on Twitter, after a few weeks I reluctantly went to mute him and it turned out he'd already unfollowed me - my twitter account is 95% music stuff, so must have been something I liked? Dunno. So I unfollowed him too.

Yesterday I went to check out his feed to see if he was still at it. Not only was he not, he'd also deleted every single tweet or reply (or like!) where he'd expressed any sort of opinion on Israel, Palestine or Hamas, and there were a lot of these, over several months. No apology or explanation, just all as if he'd never had a thought about it.

So is this cowardice? Has he actually changed his mind? And how many more news media people have done the same?

BREAKING: A Dutch court has ordered the Netherlands to halt the delivery of parts for F-35 fighter jets used by Israel in its bombardment of the Gaza Strip https://t.co/oh4sDLMjps pic.twitter.com/SmqH8CpZgW

— Al Jazeera Breaking News (@AJENews) February 12, 2024

Yesterday I went to check out his feed to see if he was still at it. Not only was he not, he'd also deleted every single tweet or reply (or like!) where he'd expressed any sort of opinion on Israel, Palestine or Hamas, and there were a lot of these, over several months. No apology or explanation, just all as if he'd never had a thought about it.

So is this cowardice? Has he actually changed his mind? And how many more news media people have done the same?

I think people should be allowed to be wrong about something, change their minds, and pivot to a new stance without having to apologize for being wrong— this goes for commentators, not policy-makers, obv

Some people don’t have the ability to apologize and you just kinda have to settle for “an aroma of remorse”

IDK, I don't want to give him a pass on this, he said some really fucked up things.

Short of asking the dude - which I understand you wouldn't want to - I think this'll just have to stay a mystery.

Friends who angrily told me I was being "alarmist" and "delusional" back in October when I said "I don't think Netanyahu actually cares about rescuing any hostages" and "I think his intention is to create conditions which predicate the permanent evacuation of the population of Gaza, and its annexation by Israel", I don't bear them any ill will or feel like they should apologise, like whatever, I thought it seemed obvious pretty early on but maybe it was not so obvious

Former friends who were saying things to me like "how can you call this a genocide when the Palestinians breed like [insert a pest animal here]", there's no apology that would suffice, those former friends are unwelcome

Friends in Israel think the abductees are hostages to Netanyahu (who will be hurled out of office when this is over/hostages are returned) as much as to Hamas.

Yes, that’s been my impression also