Israel/Palestine post 10/7 - follow-on events/thoughts as relate to other countries

Maybe "the stand-up routine is terrible" should be the main takeaway from this.

Currie’s show was described on the theatre website as a “unique, surrealist, dada punk-clown, non-verbal experience”. He does not speak in the hour-long show until the end and relies on mime, music and audience participation.

Sounds like hell on Earth.

^ not stand up, as that description shows

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPQHHP7dfjU

Currie then sits down and mimes someone doing just that - sitting in silence - then sitting apathetically in front of the TV. He then mobes (sic) to another skit, miming to Kermit singing Rainbow Connection.

That's entertainment!

It doesn’t sound great, and I have never heard of Currie before yesterday, but I question what function the article serves except to elevate the importance of the uncomfortability of an Israeli person over the literal genocide being perpetrated by the Israeli government against a captive civilian population.

Honestly, I believe proud Israeli citizens should be shamed. They should be ashamed of what their government is doing, and if they are not, they can go to hell.

They couldn’t fit that into the headline probably

They should be ashamed of what their government is doing, and if they are not, they can go to hell.

― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Thursday, February 15, 2024 5:29 AM bookmarkflaglink

No they can't. Hell is a Paul Currie comedy show.

OTM

lol fair

Terrible.

Refugee who wore paraglider image at protest to have asylum status reviewedhttps://t.co/V2u9NZ10ra

— Benny Hunter (@BennnyH) February 16, 2024

As the person who posted the tweet says below, they will not be removed from the UK, but using the immigration system as punishment is something many of us should be afraid of.

Lots of cool war crime fantasies from our Democratic leaders

NY Gov Hochul last night on local opposition to Israel’s war in Gaza:

“If Canada someday ever attacked Buffalo, I'm sorry my friends, there would be no Canada the next day.

“That’s a natural reaction. You have a right to defend yourself and to make sure it never happens again.” pic.twitter.com/UCHUBmU6ka

— Jacob N. Kornbluh (@jacobkornbluh) February 16, 2024

BREAKING: UC Davis has divested from apartheid Israel. The bill prevents the ASUCD’s $20 mill budget from being spent “on companies complicit in the occupation and genocide.”

This is huge. University divestment efforts played a massive role in ending South African apartheid. pic.twitter.com/MdddeXLFCl

— Cocktails & Capitalism - an anticapitalist podcast (@CocktCapitalism) February 16, 2024

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2024/feb/21/uk-petrol-price-jumps-houthi-attacks

Those bombing raids on a country thousands of miles away don't seem to have been too effective.

Wonder what would be effective

Meanwhile.

What did I just read pic.twitter.com/ySapnTpeGc

— Hamza (@Hamza_a96) February 21, 2024

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/feb/21/pastor-says-welby-would-not-meet-him-if-he-spoke-at-palestine-rally-with-corbyn

When pursuing a line of rhetoric brings you to Kathy Hochul threatening to hypothetically murder every Canadian, maybe somebody should consider the underlying premise?

In an interview with the Guardian, Isaac said he was told by the archbishop’s aides that if he shared a platform with Corbyn, no meeting could happen. Isaac said: “It’s shameful. It’s not my type of Christianity not to be willing to meet another pastor because you don’t want to explain why you met him.

“This sums up the Church of England. They danced around positions, and ended up saying nothing. They lack the courage to say things.”

“I know from meeting many church leaders that in private, they say one thing, and then in public, they say another thing. I’ve had the same experience with many politicians and diplomats.”

Isaac, on a visit to the UK to build support for the Palestinians, said an immediate ceasefire was “a moral obligation”. He added: “This is not a time for neutrality or soft diplomacy. Gaza should be your moral compass.”

Welby’s allies would say he has spoken out strongly on what is happening in Gaza and will continue to seek opportunities to stand in solidarity with Palestinians, but has to remain mindful of the impact on other communities.

I wonder what the Guardian thinks it's doing with that "Welby’s allies would say..." bit. Is this a report or an opinion piece?

Anyway, it clearly adds to Corbyn's international standing that Welby won't meet with him. Proves he's doing something right.

And of course

https://i.ibb.co/2F7C62T/Whats-App-Image-2024-02-21-at-16-15-48-52c911bc.jpg

Lutherans represent!

Nancy Pelosi crumbles when asked: "But there are levers that Biden hasn't used. There are levers that previous presidents have used when Israel has, in their view, crossed a line"

Pelosi: "For example?"

"Eisenhower threatened sanctions..Reagan held up delivery of fighter… pic.twitter.com/Dh6LC5a7GE

— HalalFlow (@halalflow) February 22, 2024

PRO-PALESTINE ACTIVIST: “I’ve seen 🎥of shredded children’s bodies. That’s my tax money bombing those kids.”@AndyOgles: “I think we should kill em all, if that makes you feel better.”

ACTIVIST: “Do you even have a heart?”

OGLES: “Death to Hamas.”

A disturbing Ogles exchange. pic.twitter.com/Dpnjqzw43n

— The Tennessee Holler (@TheTNHoller) February 21, 2024

not really sending our best

saying the quiet parts out loud

Same dude: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tennessee-andy-ogles-responds-critics-christmas-card-family-guns/

He's a creep, and what's worse is that that's a former Democratic district that got seriously gerrymandered a few years ago.

On that Pelosi clip, there seems to be more (admittedly small and idk how verifiable) videos and accounts purportedly from inside Palestine of small protests and Gazan people trying to say they dont want war, they dont want Hamas, they just want to live and send their kids to school.

https://twitter.com/khalidi79397

There is a podcast called Unapologetic: the Third Narrative from 2 Palestinian-Israeli peace activists. Their takeaway from the first episode is to ask people in the West to question everything.

https://open.spotify.com/show/5CT8QicPO31pe7AX0jA4Wp

I'd certainly question that twitter account's claim to be what it says it is

i wouldnt say that comes across as a very convincing fake no

That's good to question. Curious, what would be the indicators for you - is it the message itself or likes or follows or how would you go about verifying or debunking it? Personally I check Shayan Sahardzieh's account and look for bias voting on sources if any exist. Looking to understand more.

This podcast too, I wonder what people think.

Sorry for misspelling. It's Shayan Sardarizadeh ( @shayan86 )

aside from the weird framing/language (Pragmatic!) and exact fit for an ideal type ("Why don't you demand that Hamas surrenders?" - who is being triangulated within this?), I looked at the followers and there was a high proportion of people who mostly post islamophobia and similarly weird accounts like the palestinians for peace one, created in 2024 ("As real Palestinians, we call for a end of hamas and the PLO and all other Palestinian terrorist organizations, we support the democratic state of Israel").

xp
I no longer have an X account so it is a little challenging to do research. For example, I can't see the posts in chronological order, nor can I read replies or check out followers. I also did not read every single tweet they have ever posted so when I say "zero" or "no" below I'm surmising.

But, basically I find the possibility that a real Palestinian person, who joined Twitter in October 2023 and posts only (afaict) in English, would post in this fashion: exclusively critical of Hamas with what appear to be zero criticisms of Israel's response, no mention of settler and IDF violence in the West Bank where Hamas is not in power, tweets like this that take issue with as noncontroversial a word as "occupied":

People who call you a Zionist are often those who usually hate Jews.

People who hate Jews frequently believe in conspiracy theories.

People who believe in conspiracy theories typically love buzzwords like 'open-air prison,' 'genocide,' 'occupation,' and 'unicorns.'>

— Ahmed Al-Khalidi (@khalidi79397) February 9, 2024

tweets like this that equate Jewish Voice for Peace with the KKK and Nazis:

Nazis to Germans,
Kach to Israelis,
KKK to Americans,
Hamas to Palestinians,
JVP to Jews.

You are poison.

— Ahmed Al-Khalidi (@khalidi79397) January 22, 2024

Why would a "liberal" Palestinian have this opinion about JVP? It defies logic imo.

tweets like that merely repeat Israeli propaganda:

Destruction of Hamas's General Headquarters tunnels in northern Gaza. pic.twitter.com/lOE2A7dspt

— Ahmed Al-Khalidi (@khalidi79397) December 29, 2023

I could go on, but honestly I can't see how you'd see this account as anything other than blatant propaganda. To be sure, I have no theory as to who is behind the account in reality and for all I know maybe it makes a good point here or there. But I find it overwhelmingly unconvincing and, assuming I'm right, a pretty gross act of impersonation.

That last line would be a big tell for sure. I would certainly be suspicious of anyone claiming to be the "real" version of anything.

xp

Why would a "liberal" Palestinian have this opinion about JVP? It defies logic imo

Thanks. I dont have a definitive answer for you. I have read very mixed opinions about JVP, including on ILX, not all positive.

i wouldnt say that comes across as a very convincing fake no

That's an understatement.

yes Tom that is my crisp understated style thank you for noticing

I don't have an opinion about JVP, personally. I just find it extremely doubtful that a Palestinian would have such strong feelings about them that he'd refer to them as the Jewish version of the Nazi party.

But ultimately: anything is possible in this world, so I could be wrong. Maybe this is a legit Palestinian, who, despite setting my personal bullshit detector ringing, genuinely exists and holds these opinions. Even still, the account is nakedly biased toward Israel and not remotely trustworthy as a source of on-the-ground opinion in Palestine (as mentioned I didn't read every post they've ever made, but do they ever say where they are posting from?).

I'll admit that it's a little unfair that I haven't gone poking into any of the accounts that posters like xyzzz have linked on ilx. You'll simply have to take my word that I almost always ignore those posts as generally I read about these events in more mainstream sources like the Guardian, NYT, and Al Jazeera and don't feel much interest in following this via social media (also, no X account), even though I wouldn't dismiss the potential for soc med communicating info censored in other places.

I clicked on that account because your post about it piqued my curiosity. I've been rereading Joe Sacco's Palestine, which was written in the early 90s and while I've primarily been reminded of how long the daily grind of oppression of Palestinians has been going on, the book also testifies to the diversity of political opinion in Gaza at the time of the first intifada. So I was intrigued by the possibility of anti-Hamas sentiment, but that account completely lacks credibility.

Thats a pretty poor fake, though only 4473 followers for an account set up in October 2023 suggests its freelance

The only follower of any note seems to be Eli Lake, who appears to be a well known journalist. How did you come across this tweet?

Don’t really see what that fake account has to do with Pelosi’s inability to answer a question about the Biden admin’s failure to act in any case.

(First I want to be clear that these statements from US representatives are reprehensible)

What local Gazans actually want would have to do with the Pelosi tweet is that in one of the follow up tweets Pelosi was saying "I don't hear any of them saying Hamas is a terrorist organization, I am hearing them praising Hamas and I hear them ignoring the hostages" I wondered if that was even true that she had never seen it or if, assuming hypothetically, she was shown a non zero amount of opposition to Hamas within Gaza if that would change her statement or US policy justifications.

There is a poll from December maybe that purports to show 70% of Gazans are in favor of Hamas or believe the 10/7 attack was justified and I have seen this cited as justification etc. But that could be taken out of context if local media states that only military were targeted, and that would change the way that 70% number would be interpreted in the West.

But even assuming the 70% were accurate, by logic 30% then might not support Hamas or might not believe 10/7 was justifiable. And so even on its face that doesnt seem a supportable statement from Pelosi.

With regard to Israeli popular voices i think that is sort of the position of the Unapologetic podcasters. They say they are Palestinian as well as Israeli citizens, their view seems to be peace above all else so I am listening and looking for voices from Gaza and Palestine.

Pelosi also called pro-Palestine activists pawns of Russia. She's a delulu hundredmillionaire who shouldn't be trusted about anything.

"Even still, the account is nakedly biased toward Israel and not remotely trustworthy as a source of on-the-ground opinion in Palestine"

In all my time looking at this through twitter I haven't really come across anything that could be considered general opinions on Hamas by Palestinians in Gaza. I don't see how a poll could even be taken under current circumstances, or what would that mean. It's not like civilian life will ever be reconstructed anytime soon so that a thing like an election could take place to er, remove Hamas.

Palestinian/Gaza twitter has been a mix of personal remarks of loss, appeals for help - - which range from an encouragement for Westerners to keep marching, to fundraisers for families and to any help for anyone to move out of Gaza - - to simple accounts of survival. Like a bit of bread is being baked for the day.

"You'll simply have to take my word that I almost always ignore those posts as generally I read about these events in more mainstream sources like the Guardian, NYT, and Al Jazeera"

Well, you shouldn't. I understand it's a fucked up platform but no account of this genocide will be complete without a thorough dissection of those tweets.

At least the tweets I bring here :-)

I was also wondering how a poll could be taken. I'll share the purported source.

Re: elections - One of the articles covering a controversy about whether Harvard school of public health should go foward with a proposed summer collaboration with Birzeit University from West Bank this summer (location would be in Jordan) mentioned that student government elections is watched as an indicator of public sentiment given there have been no election in Gaza since 2006. The Hamas party won the most recent Birzeit election which is why the program is controversial, also a Haaretz reporter was some years ago told she wsd banned from the campus.

https://fxb.harvard.edu/racial-justice/palestine-program/palestine-social-medicine-course/

Agreed it's better to put things forward for baselines and discussions. Iran, North Korea, and China, for instance, are or are going the way of hermetically sealing off information while genocide, famine or other crimes are happening there. Sometimes Twitter, reddit, Telegram are what people have.

Apparently it was during the previous ceasefire:

Despite the devastation, 57% of respondents in Gaza and 82% in the West Bank believe Hamas was correct in launching the October attack, the poll indicated. A large majority believed Hamas’ claims that it acted to defend a major Islamic shrine in Jerusalem against Jewish extremists and win the release of Palestinian prisoners. Only 10% said they believed Hamas has committed war crimes, with a large majority saying they did not see videos showing the militants committing atrocities.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514