Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

gazans being straight-up murdered for being gazan is subtly different from israelis being 'blamed' for the actions of their government

i.e. the latter are still alive

― mookieproof, Saturday, February 17, 2024 9:54 PM bookmarkflaglink

This came off sounding like you do not see that Thai workers, Bedoins, Tanzanians, and Israelis of many races were killed by Hamas. And many more of the teenage girls are probably dead. So yes it feels like erasure and I don't appreciate accusations of "defending" genocide being weaponized against me when I have done no such thing.

The reference to "stolen land" is to the hypocrisy that akm referred to early on in the conflict. I don't go around accusing people of defending genocide and spitefully trolling people who are being targeted, Jewish or Muslim.

i apologize for not suitably acknowledging every single person who has suffered

yet the numbers i've seen indicate that thais, bedouins, tanzanians and israelis have been rather less affected than the 30,000 gazans who have been killed. whom it comes off sounding like you do not see

what hamas did was terrible! but that doesn't give israel free rein to snipe childrens' heads. there is no tit-for-tat in war crimes!

do you think all gazans are legitimate targets for attack? do you think denying food aid is warranted? these seem like important issues

sorry i don't mean to 'weaponize' anything against you, nor do i at all mean to accuse you of any sort of culpability! (pretty sure i have not accused any larger groups of doing so, either) it just seems like your concerns are awfully one-sided while gaza is being leveled

it just seems like your concerns are awfully one-sided while gaza is being leveled

can I get a fucking amen

btw I did not know any of the pre-JFK history brought up earlier, so thanks everyone! very informative.

I do not think all Gazans are legitimate targets for attack, nor do I think witholding food and aid is warranted. By Israel, Hamas or anyone.

I think the anti-Israel/anti-"Zionist" position is more than adequately represented here. I am occasionally critical of Israel and the IDF as well even if you do not see that.

I am very bothered by the accusations against UNRWA and I was disturbed by the textbooks and television shows allegedly teaching Palestinian children to hate Jews. I am disturbed that xyzzz supports the Houthis whose flag says "a curse to the Jews". I am upset that you do not see a problem with Hamas' genocidal charter to destroy Israel and then exterminate Jews worldwide.

I think food and aid should go to Gazans and also that all war criminals should be tried.

The ICJ ordered Hamas to release the hostages. I am bothered that no one has remarked on that or has remotely commented that it hasn't happened. And I do find it somewhat infantilizing and white colonial mindset to insist that the parties should ceasefire when Hamas has broken the previous ceasefire.

sleeve, mookie, maybe there is a private channel where you can go and discuss me or something.

Whatever the intentions are of the houthis, hamas, aliens from out of space, it's Israel that is currently acting out genocide. I think I could speak for mookie xyzzzz tables anyone on this forum that it doesn't matter who is committing the genocidal actions, they'd be condemning it regardless of the religious/cultural/whatever identity of the perpetrator/perpetrated

I get your concerns, but surely you've got to understand that when it's 13,000 children killed vs 14 children and your staning for the side on the right of that equation....... its just not a good look regardless of how philsophically right you may be!

exactly

*murdered, not killed

HP, I appreciate the thought and in your case I know it is coming from a good place.

Trust me when I say I have met all these guys in person. I am saying what I am saying for a reason.

Slight correction. I haven't met table. My bad.

exactly

― I painted my teeth (sleeve), Monday, February 19, 2024 10:09 PM bookmarkflaglink

I see you.

felicity I left the slack because of the way you stalked, bullied, and harassed other posters on there including several women. so no, I do not have a backchannel option to talk to mookie, even if I did I would not stoop to your level. fuck off forever. I regret meeting you.

sleeve, agree to disagree.

H.P, I agree that Israel should not be committing atrocities and the numbers are very asymmetrical.

Forgive my ignorance, and maybe my brain is unable to comprehend the horrors, but I keep thinking of all the tunnels in Gaza. I keep thinking there are enough tunnels to have kept the women and children and other non combatants safe if Hamas wanted them to be safe. It's very sad.

You think two million people can live in tunnels?

If women and children don’t want to be sniped by the IDF why don’t they simply develop Kevlar skin?

I keep thinking there are enough tunnels to have kept the women and children and other non combatants safe if Hamas wanted them to be safe. It's very sad.

I don't think Hamas has any interest in keeping the population safe, but even if they did its unlikely such a large population could fit in a tunnel network for any length of time, no matter how extensive it may be. I can't see how this is practical in any way, and would most likely shift the terrain of the operations underground anyway,

Ultimately, it is Israel that is making these strikes and Israel that is responsible (just as the responsibility for Oct 7 falls on Hamas). Personally I don't the strikes as justifiable morally, but even leaving that aside its unclear what strategic benefit they are having. Winning a war (Iraq) often doesn't come with many prizes attached, whereas winning the peace (Vietnam) is more likely to

Just say what you are trying to say, xyzzzz. I really want to know what it is you feel you speak for all of ILX about me.

― felicity, Monday, 19 February 2024 bookmarkflaglink

I only speak for myself. So you are wrong thinking that too. I have said what I needed to say. People can see, no need to repeat it.

But to recap/clarify.

I posted Seamus' reasonable observation as a tweet. Others ran with it in different ways around white supremacy and Israeli society, which I didn't comment on but others felt it was dehumanising.

The reaction I did think was worth expanding was symsymsym's posting on Israeli's media reaction, which is one to minimise what is going on in Gaza.

To which I responded to say: Israeli people have internet. Surely they can see what the IDF is up to. Why are they not protesting more about this inside Israel, rather than just turning against Netanyahu, when their politicians are offering no end to the IDF's actions in Gaza, as far as I can see

To which you have said, to my question (which I have elaborated to just now). This is not an argument. Called me "Mr. Houthi", and said that Alex Jones is back on twitter.

"I am disturbed that xyzzz supports the Houthis whose flag says "a curse to the Jews". I am upset that you do not see a problem with Hamas' genocidal charter to destroy Israel and then exterminate Jews worldwide."

I have not said much about the charter since it was posted here many months ago. I don't remember supporting that.

But I support any actions that will stop IDF atrocity in Gaza. That includes what the Houthi militia are doing, which is so far a blockade. I support this. Who else has done anything of note to stop what is happening in Gaza. International law has done something, but it's less. All of it may not matter in the end

No. I mean it is sad that Israel has all these bomb shelters and Iron Dome to defend against the constant rockets and Gaza has tunnels the size of the NYC subway system. So much money to wage perpetual war.

Please don't think you are fooling anyone that you've got the story straight.

― xyzzzz__, Sunday, February 18, 2024 2:23 PM bookmarkflaglink

This is what I was referring to.

I entered the conversation at the point where people (not just me) expressed discomfort at not just the dehumanization, but the insistence that to be a morally good person requires the dehumanization, of an entire nation. A position I have yet to see anyone take with regard to any other group of people.

Re the Houthis, maybe I have misunderstood - do they have other human rights violations? It seems like you are saying even if so that is a sacrifice you are willing to make.

The blockade is there to stop Israel and IDF committing another set of human rights violations. The Houthi began these actions after a month of the IDF in Gaza

What has been the sacrifice you have been making on this thread, Felicity. What have you been overlooking?

Who else has done anything of note to stop what is happening in Gaza. International law has done something, but it's less. All of it may not matter in the end

― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, February 20, 2024 12:26 AM bookmarkflaglink

Releasing the hostages, as I understand it, would essentially eliminate Israel's hors de combat (justification) under international law. So I would have thought that the goal should be to pressure Hamas to return the hostages if the goal is to bring additional pressure to bear, save lives and stop the destruction.

Where I don't quite get the logic is that the marches and chants seem to be a mix of wanting to eliminate Israel and wanting to cease fire.

What has been the sacrifice you have been making on this thread, Felicity. What have you been overlooking?

― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, February 20, 2024 1:05 AM bookmarkflaglink

You mean this?

I'm not qualified to get into the guessing game re: the hospital but I don't see how you get around telling a million people in Gaza to move south and then doing air strikes over the Rafah Crossing while aid piles up on the Egypt side. I know I am just plucking out a moment here but this seems to be something the world agrees is happening and the scale of the horror is hard to comprehend.

― felicity, Wednesday, October 18, 2023 11:25 AM bookmarkflaglink

Or the children sniped in the head? No that is all wrong.

Felicity, you sound like you are victim blaming when the victim is 13,000 dead children.....

And whether I, you, or anyone agrees that people shouldn't shout for the elimination of Israel... when it is that same Israel that has killed 100 children a day for 4 months straight..... like man what do you want the victims to feel? What do you want the world to feel? Even if you are right that the rhetoric is not god, save the debates on rhetoric for when children are not being murdered indiscriminately daily! It's crass and cruel to have arguments about words and slogans while these hellscape numbers are still counting. Like wtf is going on?

I don't say this, or anything in this thread with ill-will towards you. I get that there are personal stakes here, and probably and real emotional hurt leveled at you by posts in this thread. But this is one of those ones where it's best to just leave it

*not good

"Releasing the hostages, as I understand it, would essentially eliminate Israel's hors de combat (justification) under international law"

You overlook Netanyahu's reaction to the ICJ ruling showing contempt for international law.

What is the guarantee that releasing the hostages would allow Palestinians to return to Gaza? And what are the reparations to Palestinians for the damage caused? Pictures show they will come back to something unliveable.

And what about the thousands of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza in Israeli jails, the ones that are taken daily? There were about seven thousand at the last count I saw. When will Israel release them?

If the Israeli government were to help to reconstruct Gaza and release all Palestinians would the people support this? There has been no outrage in Israel to the IDF's actions in Gaza.

What else do you overlook, Felicity?

Or the children sniped in the head? No that is all wrong.

― felicity, Tuesday, 20 February 2024 bookmarkflaglink

You demand the action from Hamas to release the hostages, but why is it that you just call these actions by the IDF merely wrong? We all know this, but the question is what will Israel do to make all of this 'right'?

So I would have thought that the goal should be to pressure Hamas to return the hostages if the goal is to bring additional pressure to bear, save lives and stop the destruction.

I think initially this was absolutely the case, but Israel's disproportionate response has shifted the onus. Also "the west" doesn't really have any leverage over Hamas but it does have leverage over Israel, which is why the pressure should be on Israel right now not on Hamas (whereas between Oct 7 and Israel's response the pressure should have been fully on Hamas).

Besides the unethically of the disproportionate response, its also a strategic mistake by Israel. Should they have responded? 100%. No country is going to allow something like Oct 7 to happen without responding, and Israel has the right to defend itself just the same as North Korea, Ghana, or Greece does. This isn't defending itself though, and it also reduces its room for manoeuvre. There's a reason why generally countries are quite cautious in their responses, even enemies, they have to make some response but ideally one that doesn't then escalate to where they're unable to move easily up or down in scale where necessary. Israel is damaging its own interests here too

Where I don't quite get the logic is that the marches and chants seem to be a mix of wanting to eliminate Israel and wanting to cease fire

These are large scale protests with different often contradictory motivations and interests. Is having people who want to eliminate Israel entirely involved a good look? I think its a bad look and counter-productive, I think its a problem, but others disagree and thats often the nature of very wide protests

Already regretting wading in here before I post, but "wanting to eliminate Israel" is a deeply-loaded phrase, no country has a right to exist aside from the people who live there, let alone an apartheid ethnostate. If you rephrase as "the people who live in this area (whatever their religion or ethnicity) have a right to life and democratic representation and not to be forced out of their homes, bombed or shot" and the institutions of the Israeli government and the IDF are the forces standing against this then how does that work? What if this state was representative of everyone there, would it even be called "Israel"? Would that mean that Israel has been "eliminated"?

These are obviously emotive terms and therefore deeply loaded by default, I think thats just something we have to recognise and try out best to navigate. Different people mean different things with terms like this, I think you just have to meet people where they are and try and think of any term in the way that they are using it, the substance underneath is more important at end of the day

I think a better way of looking at it is smaller more immediate goals and larger more open ended or even abstract/philosophical ones. The immediate goal should be for Israel to stop its attacks on Gaza, regardless of what positions people hold on the broader questions. This is, or at least should be, an achievable goal with a large public coalition behind it. The west (well, ok, the US) has significant leverage over Israel, and if we can tell Ukraine you can have this one rocket and fire it once a week and only in this one place, then we can do something similar for Israel

Though I don't want to overstate the leverage the US has, its obviously much less than its leverage over Ukraine, it is still present. And ironically, if the US used this leverage over Israel, it would actually help Israel. Israel isn't really acting in its own self-interest at the moment, and someone reigning it in wouldn't just help Gaza, it would help Israel too

You overlook Netanyahu's reaction to the ICJ ruling showing contempt for international law.

He certainly had a contemptuous tone. I don't see how that becomes an argument against releasing the hostages when the ICJ ordered Hamas to do so, immediately. Either there is an effort to abide by international law or not, if we are taking an immediate, incremental approach to harm reduction.

What is the guarantee that releasing the hostages would allow Palestinians to return to Gaza? And what are the reparations to Palestinians for the damage caused? Pictures show they will come back to something unliveable.

And what about the thousands of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza in Israeli jails, the ones that are taken daily? There were about seven thousand at the last count I saw. When will Israel release them?

If the Israeli government were to help to reconstruct Gaza and release all Palestinians would the people support this? There has been no outrage in Israel to the IDF's actions in Gaza.

What else do you overlook, Felicity?

― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, February 20, 2024 1:31 AM bookmarkflaglink

I think responding to this is somewhat complicated by the fact that Gaza and West Bank do not have the same government. Before you start screaming at me in an aggressive way again, I'm aware that Israel is at least partly culpable for this situation.

Gaza will have to be rebuilt. Reparations are probably needed (similar to what Germany paid Holocaust survivors/descendants $86.8 billion). I am hesitant to impose my values externally but since several people (not me) have been throwing out the words democratic, freedom and justice, if there is to be peace I think they probably have to stop teaching hatred of Jews in UNRWA schools and instead teach tolerance and coexistence in the schools. My impression is that UNRWA can start changing textbooks immediately.

Or the children sniped in the head? No that is all wrong.

― felicity, Tuesday, 20 February 2024 bookmarkflaglink

You demand the action from Hamas to release the hostages, but why is it that you just call these actions by the IDF merely wrong? We all know this, but the question is what will Israel do to make all of this 'right'?

― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, February 20, 2024 1:45 AM bookmarkflaglink

I am under the impression that there are investigations and prosecutions under way internally in the IDF. As I have always said in this thread, all war criminals should be tried and brought to justice. This includes IDF. Netanyahu should probably be in prison. But so should Trump.

"I think responding to this is somewhat complicated by the fact that Gaza and West Bank do not have the same government. Before you start screaming at me in an aggressive way again, I'm aware that Israel is at least partly culpable for this situation."

I have not done a CAPS LOCK post @ you.

I wouldn't say it's very complex at all. But we've been through that.

Already regretting wading in here before I post, but "wanting to eliminate Israel" is a deeply-loaded phrase, no country has a right to exist aside from the people who live there, let alone an apartheid ethnostate. If you rephrase as "the people who live in this area (whatever their religion or ethnicity) have a right to life and democratic representation and not to be forced out of their homes, bombed or shot" and the institutions of the Israeli government and the IDF are the forces standing against this then how does that work? What if this state was representative of everyone there, would it even be called "Israel"? Would that mean that Israel has been "eliminated"?

― This is Dance Anthems, have some respect (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Tuesday, February 20, 2024 1:57 AM bookmarkflaglink

I think many of these are true statements and also good questions. And also may depend on some assumptions and sub-assumptions that might be interrogated. I wonder if you think other countries in the region or in history are, or have been "apartheid ethnostates" if they do/did not tolerate Jews, ethnically cleansed or genocided their Jews, or do not allow Jews to intermarry with members of the majority religion.

While in theory a right to life and representative democracy sounds great, historically this has not worked well for the Jews in Europe or in any place where they have been a minority, except maybe the US - at least in my limited knowledge. I don't think this is an argument for indiscriminate killing of Palestinian people either. I personally prefer a Western style democracy where women have rights and dissent is tolerated to some extent, like in the US. I think this is not the case in the Iran, but I am hesitant to say anything more than coexistence because people seem trigger happy to make accusations of things I did not say, or act out their emotional outrage on someone struggling to describe the complexity of this bad situation.

yes, most states in the middle east are indeed apartheid ethnostates, especially the rich oil-producing gulf states and their class of bonded labour from overseas.

the historic persecution of the Jewish people in the west is not due to the right to life and representative democracy, in fact the regimes which persecuted them the most had nothing but contempt for these concepts.

I wouldn't say it's very complex at all. But we've been through that.

― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, February 20, 2024 3:12 AM bookmarkflaglink

No we haven't. Please tell me your very simple solution. I am dying to know.

That West Bank and Gaza are separate governments impeding an all for all release is a bogus complication.

Forgive my ignorance, and maybe my brain is unable to comprehend the horrors, but I keep thinking of all the tunnels in Gaza. I keep thinking there are enough tunnels to have kept the women and children and other non combatants safe if Hamas wanted them to be safe. It's very sad.

― felicity, Tuesday, February 20, 2024 7:31 AM (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

You think two million people can live in tunnels?

― The British Boy of Film Classification (Tom D.), Tuesday, February 20, 2024 7:51 AM (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

this reminds me of the insane or evil, take your pick, israeli ambassador to the uk appearing on sky news and saying that hamas had constructed a billion dollar "terror city" in tunnels beneath gaza funded by foreign humanitarian aid. were we supposed to believe there were shops and schools and apartments down there or something?

and the tunnels had their own tunnels, under the terror city

I am under the impression that there are investigations and prosecutions under way internally in the IDF

haven't heard anything about these prosecutions, would like to know more

The reaction I did think was worth expanding was symsymsym's posting on Israeli's media reaction, which is one to minimise what is going on in Gaza.

To which I responded to say: Israeli people have internet. Surely they can see what the IDF is up to. Why are they not protesting more about this inside Israel, rather than just turning against Netanyahu, when their politicians are offering no end to the IDF's actions in Gaza, as far as I can see

just to follow up on this, I did mean that most Israelis' media diet avoids humanizing or empathizing the innocent victims in Gaza. In general, they don't want to know. My post included a quote by an Israeli TV journalist in that article who met with intense backlash for trying to present some degree of balance. Israelis are creating their own media bubbles (like a lot of other people these days).

haven't heard anything about these prosecutions, would like to know more

― symsymsym, Tuesday, February 20, 2024 7:45 AM bookmarkflaglink

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-probing-alleged-violations-of-regulations-and-international-law-during-war-on-hamas/

https://archive.ph/W6CVR

ty

Call me suspicious of a military investigating itself. Rarely yields actual discipline or much of anything else.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2020-10-03/ty-article-magazine/.premium/heres-happens-with-idf-investigations-into-deaths-of-innocent-palestinians/0000017f-e75a-d97e-a37f-f77f29620000

That West Bank and Gaza are separate governments impeding an all for all release is a bogus complication.

― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, February 20, 2024 5:00 AM bookmarkflaglink

Not sure if you are arguing for following international law (the ICJ order said "unconditional" release) or have a simple solution that involves all for all.

Since you wouldn't say it's complex, mind sharing the simple solution?