Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

*not good

"Releasing the hostages, as I understand it, would essentially eliminate Israel's hors de combat (justification) under international law"

You overlook Netanyahu's reaction to the ICJ ruling showing contempt for international law.

What is the guarantee that releasing the hostages would allow Palestinians to return to Gaza? And what are the reparations to Palestinians for the damage caused? Pictures show they will come back to something unliveable.

And what about the thousands of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza in Israeli jails, the ones that are taken daily? There were about seven thousand at the last count I saw. When will Israel release them?

If the Israeli government were to help to reconstruct Gaza and release all Palestinians would the people support this? There has been no outrage in Israel to the IDF's actions in Gaza.

What else do you overlook, Felicity?

Or the children sniped in the head? No that is all wrong.

― felicity, Tuesday, 20 February 2024 bookmarkflaglink

You demand the action from Hamas to release the hostages, but why is it that you just call these actions by the IDF merely wrong? We all know this, but the question is what will Israel do to make all of this 'right'?

So I would have thought that the goal should be to pressure Hamas to return the hostages if the goal is to bring additional pressure to bear, save lives and stop the destruction.

I think initially this was absolutely the case, but Israel's disproportionate response has shifted the onus. Also "the west" doesn't really have any leverage over Hamas but it does have leverage over Israel, which is why the pressure should be on Israel right now not on Hamas (whereas between Oct 7 and Israel's response the pressure should have been fully on Hamas).

Besides the unethically of the disproportionate response, its also a strategic mistake by Israel. Should they have responded? 100%. No country is going to allow something like Oct 7 to happen without responding, and Israel has the right to defend itself just the same as North Korea, Ghana, or Greece does. This isn't defending itself though, and it also reduces its room for manoeuvre. There's a reason why generally countries are quite cautious in their responses, even enemies, they have to make some response but ideally one that doesn't then escalate to where they're unable to move easily up or down in scale where necessary. Israel is damaging its own interests here too

Where I don't quite get the logic is that the marches and chants seem to be a mix of wanting to eliminate Israel and wanting to cease fire

These are large scale protests with different often contradictory motivations and interests. Is having people who want to eliminate Israel entirely involved a good look? I think its a bad look and counter-productive, I think its a problem, but others disagree and thats often the nature of very wide protests

Already regretting wading in here before I post, but "wanting to eliminate Israel" is a deeply-loaded phrase, no country has a right to exist aside from the people who live there, let alone an apartheid ethnostate. If you rephrase as "the people who live in this area (whatever their religion or ethnicity) have a right to life and democratic representation and not to be forced out of their homes, bombed or shot" and the institutions of the Israeli government and the IDF are the forces standing against this then how does that work? What if this state was representative of everyone there, would it even be called "Israel"? Would that mean that Israel has been "eliminated"?

These are obviously emotive terms and therefore deeply loaded by default, I think thats just something we have to recognise and try out best to navigate. Different people mean different things with terms like this, I think you just have to meet people where they are and try and think of any term in the way that they are using it, the substance underneath is more important at end of the day

I think a better way of looking at it is smaller more immediate goals and larger more open ended or even abstract/philosophical ones. The immediate goal should be for Israel to stop its attacks on Gaza, regardless of what positions people hold on the broader questions. This is, or at least should be, an achievable goal with a large public coalition behind it. The west (well, ok, the US) has significant leverage over Israel, and if we can tell Ukraine you can have this one rocket and fire it once a week and only in this one place, then we can do something similar for Israel

Though I don't want to overstate the leverage the US has, its obviously much less than its leverage over Ukraine, it is still present. And ironically, if the US used this leverage over Israel, it would actually help Israel. Israel isn't really acting in its own self-interest at the moment, and someone reigning it in wouldn't just help Gaza, it would help Israel too

You overlook Netanyahu's reaction to the ICJ ruling showing contempt for international law.

He certainly had a contemptuous tone. I don't see how that becomes an argument against releasing the hostages when the ICJ ordered Hamas to do so, immediately. Either there is an effort to abide by international law or not, if we are taking an immediate, incremental approach to harm reduction.

What is the guarantee that releasing the hostages would allow Palestinians to return to Gaza? And what are the reparations to Palestinians for the damage caused? Pictures show they will come back to something unliveable.

And what about the thousands of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza in Israeli jails, the ones that are taken daily? There were about seven thousand at the last count I saw. When will Israel release them?

If the Israeli government were to help to reconstruct Gaza and release all Palestinians would the people support this? There has been no outrage in Israel to the IDF's actions in Gaza.

What else do you overlook, Felicity?

― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, February 20, 2024 1:31 AM bookmarkflaglink

I think responding to this is somewhat complicated by the fact that Gaza and West Bank do not have the same government. Before you start screaming at me in an aggressive way again, I'm aware that Israel is at least partly culpable for this situation.

Gaza will have to be rebuilt. Reparations are probably needed (similar to what Germany paid Holocaust survivors/descendants $86.8 billion). I am hesitant to impose my values externally but since several people (not me) have been throwing out the words democratic, freedom and justice, if there is to be peace I think they probably have to stop teaching hatred of Jews in UNRWA schools and instead teach tolerance and coexistence in the schools. My impression is that UNRWA can start changing textbooks immediately.

Or the children sniped in the head? No that is all wrong.

― felicity, Tuesday, 20 February 2024 bookmarkflaglink

You demand the action from Hamas to release the hostages, but why is it that you just call these actions by the IDF merely wrong? We all know this, but the question is what will Israel do to make all of this 'right'?

― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, February 20, 2024 1:45 AM bookmarkflaglink

I am under the impression that there are investigations and prosecutions under way internally in the IDF. As I have always said in this thread, all war criminals should be tried and brought to justice. This includes IDF. Netanyahu should probably be in prison. But so should Trump.

"I think responding to this is somewhat complicated by the fact that Gaza and West Bank do not have the same government. Before you start screaming at me in an aggressive way again, I'm aware that Israel is at least partly culpable for this situation."

I have not done a CAPS LOCK post @ you.

I wouldn't say it's very complex at all. But we've been through that.

Already regretting wading in here before I post, but "wanting to eliminate Israel" is a deeply-loaded phrase, no country has a right to exist aside from the people who live there, let alone an apartheid ethnostate. If you rephrase as "the people who live in this area (whatever their religion or ethnicity) have a right to life and democratic representation and not to be forced out of their homes, bombed or shot" and the institutions of the Israeli government and the IDF are the forces standing against this then how does that work? What if this state was representative of everyone there, would it even be called "Israel"? Would that mean that Israel has been "eliminated"?

― This is Dance Anthems, have some respect (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Tuesday, February 20, 2024 1:57 AM bookmarkflaglink

I think many of these are true statements and also good questions. And also may depend on some assumptions and sub-assumptions that might be interrogated. I wonder if you think other countries in the region or in history are, or have been "apartheid ethnostates" if they do/did not tolerate Jews, ethnically cleansed or genocided their Jews, or do not allow Jews to intermarry with members of the majority religion.

While in theory a right to life and representative democracy sounds great, historically this has not worked well for the Jews in Europe or in any place where they have been a minority, except maybe the US - at least in my limited knowledge. I don't think this is an argument for indiscriminate killing of Palestinian people either. I personally prefer a Western style democracy where women have rights and dissent is tolerated to some extent, like in the US. I think this is not the case in the Iran, but I am hesitant to say anything more than coexistence because people seem trigger happy to make accusations of things I did not say, or act out their emotional outrage on someone struggling to describe the complexity of this bad situation.

yes, most states in the middle east are indeed apartheid ethnostates, especially the rich oil-producing gulf states and their class of bonded labour from overseas.

the historic persecution of the Jewish people in the west is not due to the right to life and representative democracy, in fact the regimes which persecuted them the most had nothing but contempt for these concepts.

I wouldn't say it's very complex at all. But we've been through that.

― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, February 20, 2024 3:12 AM bookmarkflaglink

No we haven't. Please tell me your very simple solution. I am dying to know.

That West Bank and Gaza are separate governments impeding an all for all release is a bogus complication.

Forgive my ignorance, and maybe my brain is unable to comprehend the horrors, but I keep thinking of all the tunnels in Gaza. I keep thinking there are enough tunnels to have kept the women and children and other non combatants safe if Hamas wanted them to be safe. It's very sad.

― felicity, Tuesday, February 20, 2024 7:31 AM (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

You think two million people can live in tunnels?

― The British Boy of Film Classification (Tom D.), Tuesday, February 20, 2024 7:51 AM (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

this reminds me of the insane or evil, take your pick, israeli ambassador to the uk appearing on sky news and saying that hamas had constructed a billion dollar "terror city" in tunnels beneath gaza funded by foreign humanitarian aid. were we supposed to believe there were shops and schools and apartments down there or something?

and the tunnels had their own tunnels, under the terror city

I am under the impression that there are investigations and prosecutions under way internally in the IDF

haven't heard anything about these prosecutions, would like to know more

The reaction I did think was worth expanding was symsymsym's posting on Israeli's media reaction, which is one to minimise what is going on in Gaza.

To which I responded to say: Israeli people have internet. Surely they can see what the IDF is up to. Why are they not protesting more about this inside Israel, rather than just turning against Netanyahu, when their politicians are offering no end to the IDF's actions in Gaza, as far as I can see

just to follow up on this, I did mean that most Israelis' media diet avoids humanizing or empathizing the innocent victims in Gaza. In general, they don't want to know. My post included a quote by an Israeli TV journalist in that article who met with intense backlash for trying to present some degree of balance. Israelis are creating their own media bubbles (like a lot of other people these days).

haven't heard anything about these prosecutions, would like to know more

― symsymsym, Tuesday, February 20, 2024 7:45 AM bookmarkflaglink

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-probing-alleged-violations-of-regulations-and-international-law-during-war-on-hamas/

https://archive.ph/W6CVR

ty

Call me suspicious of a military investigating itself. Rarely yields actual discipline or much of anything else.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2020-10-03/ty-article-magazine/.premium/heres-happens-with-idf-investigations-into-deaths-of-innocent-palestinians/0000017f-e75a-d97e-a37f-f77f29620000

That West Bank and Gaza are separate governments impeding an all for all release is a bogus complication.

― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, February 20, 2024 5:00 AM bookmarkflaglink

Not sure if you are arguing for following international law (the ICJ order said "unconditional" release) or have a simple solution that involves all for all.

Since you wouldn't say it's complex, mind sharing the simple solution?

“Let’s let these genocidaires investigate whether they committed atrocities” like you realize this can’t be taken seriously.

Call me suspicious of a military investigating itself. Rarely yields actual discipline or much of anything else.

That is fair. Very big gap between what is and what ought to be in the law.

Yeah, it’s the same with cops.

the lack of consequences for the killing of Shireen Abu Akleh is one reason I don't trust the IDF investigation mechanisms (along with all the lying).

it's noteworthy that these investigations appear to mainly be for failures to follow internal policies - blowing up a school in Gaza without the proper permit.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/05/middleeast/idf-shireen-abu-akleh-investigation-intl/index.html

“Let’s let these genocidaires investigate whether they committed atrocities” like you realize this can’t be taken seriously.

― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Tuesday, February 20, 2024 8:30 AM bookmarkflaglink

I am responding to people who want to have a serious discussion and find a solution.

Do you have a better solution? I really want to know.

I have heard similar about sexual harassment investigations in the IDF.

Most moral and ethical army in the world. So they tell us.

I mean, ideally there would be an International war crimes tribunal looking into what Israel is doing/has done here, but as we know every international organization is illegitimate and full of Hamas supporters.

on that note, was this article from November shared here? it's an incredible piece of reporting:

https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/

Compared to previous Israeli assaults on Gaza, the current war — which Israel has named “Operation Iron Swords,” and which began in the wake of the Hamas-led assault on southern Israel on October 7 — has seen the army significantly expand its bombing of targets that are not distinctly military in nature. These include private residences as well as public buildings, infrastructure, and high-rise blocks, which sources say the army defines as “power targets” (“matarot otzem”).

The bombing of power targets, according to intelligence sources who had first-hand experience with its application in Gaza in the past, is mainly intended to harm Palestinian civil society: to “create a shock” that, among other things, will reverberate powerfully and “lead civilians to put pressure on Hamas,” as one source put it.

Several of the sources, who spoke to +972 and Local Call on the condition of anonymity, confirmed that the Israeli army has files on the vast majority of potential targets in Gaza — including homes — which stipulate the number of civilians who are likely to be killed in an attack on a particular target. This number is calculated and known in advance to the army’s intelligence units, who also know shortly before carrying out an attack roughly how many civilians are certain to be killed.

In one case discussed by the sources, the Israeli military command knowingly approved the killing of hundreds of Palestinian civilians in an attempt to assassinate a single top Hamas military commander. “The numbers increased from dozens of civilian deaths (permitted) as collateral damage as part of an attack on a senior official in previous operations, to hundreds of civilian deaths as collateral damage,” said one source.

“Nothing happens by accident,” said another source. “When a 3-year-old girl is killed in a home in Gaza, it’s because someone in the army decided it wasn’t a big deal for her to be killed — that it was a price worth paying in order to hit a target. We are not Hamas. These are not random rockets. Everything is intentional. We know exactly how much collateral damage there is in every home.”

Not sure if you are arguing for following international law (the ICJ order said "unconditional" release) or have a simple solution that involves all for all.

Since you wouldn't say it's complex, mind sharing the simple solution?

― felicity, Tuesday, 20 February 2024 bookmarkflaglink

All for all. Simple solutions. For free.

xp

I had had the feeling that the self-defense argument was patently ridiculous - even if you wipe out most of Hamas, aren't you just creating the next generation of violent resistance, whether it's under the name of Hamas or not? But lately I think there is a self-defense logic to the whole operation, that the 'collateral damage' is part of it, to cause such overwhelming destruction and misery that there is no longer any will to resist, or at least create an instinctual terror of doing anything that would provoke the Israelis. Essentially treating the Gazans as animals who need to be beaten. Of course this also makes the Israelis look like a country of inhuman monsters to a lot of people, and when you associate criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism, well, it's not exactly good for the Jews writ large. But hey, we can always come to Israel to be safe.

on that note, was this article from November shared here? it's an incredible piece of reporting:

https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/

― symsymsym, Tuesday, 20 February 2024 bookmarkflaglink

Seen it at the time. Felt the claims of these algs were inflated at the time but I didn't finish the piece then.

All for all. Simple solutions. For free.

― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, February 20, 2024 9:28 AM bookmarkflaglink

Ok then let's drop the pretense that this has anything to do with international law or you asking me to answer questions about law for you.

It's a waste of my time and that of others and allows you to be cruel while hiding your intentions. Well done.

that's how I feel too JoeStork

I am responding to people who want to have a serious discussion and find a solution.

Drop the cruel/shouting act, Felicity. Be serious. Share what you need to and I will do the same. If you ask questions of me I will do so if needed as well.

I ask questions to know the answer, not to troll people and hurt them and claim it was a joke. You know it and so do our friends. Stop.

xp to JoeStork and symsymsym: what is ironic is that Israel is demonstrably unsafe for Jewish people, entirely because of those in power hewing to a fascist settler ideology that precipitates retaliatory violence

'entirely' is doing a fuckload of work there!

I explained my posting of that tweet that led to a lot of argument. You've then kept on having a go at me. If you don't like it, don't have a go, xps

xpost to Andrew Farrell—

The violence of Israeli settlements and occupation precipitates the violence of Palestinian resistance which then precipitates the retaliation of the Israeli state, and so on.

The issue is that the Israeli state refuses to recognize as violence what is plainly violence from any objective viewpoint, thus refusing to remove itself from this cycle, and thus assuring that the cycle continues.

what is ironic is that Israel is demonstrably unsafe for Jewish people

This is one of the saddest aspects of Israel's policies — the whole promise of the Israeli state is Jewish security, that more than anything is its founding mission. But the policies of the Israeli government over the last 20 years in particular have made Israel's Jewish population increasingly less safe, with Oct. 7 being just the most glaring illustration.

xp - right, and it can be described, as you just did, as (wildly!) asymmetrical without being one-actor.

jfc the responses to this tweet, lesson is "stay off twitter" I guess?

One thing I'm noticing from my Israeli groupchats (the ones that aren't exclusively with academics and leftists) is that it seems most Israelis I know are genuinely in complete denial of what is happening in Gaza being as bad as it really is. Like literally denial

— Talia Ringer 🟣 🎗️ (@TaliaRinger) February 20, 2024

I am responding to people who want to have a serious discussion and find a solution.

Do you have a better solution? I really want to know.

No one on a Web 1.0 forum is finding the solution to a global conflict or an ongoing genocide.

The potential start to a solution is fairly self-evident though (Israel stops committing genocide, stops actively obstructing Palestinian self-governance giving rise to groups like Hamas, stops arresting and murdering Palestinians outside of the area where it’s actively committing genocide) and a necessary precursor to any discussion of a X-state solution.

This being a Web 1.0 forum rather than a diplomatic conference it’s useful for venting, sharing info on the ways that Israel is not doing any of the above, etc..

xp to JoeStork and symsymsym: what is ironic is that Israel is demonstrably unsafe for Jewish people, entirely because of those in power hewing to a fascist settler ideology that precipitates retaliatory violence

― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Tuesday, February 20, 2024 12:48 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

joestork was being sarcastic

when he said, "at least we can go to israel to be safe"