Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

I wouldn't say it's very complex at all. But we've been through that.

― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, February 20, 2024 3:12 AM bookmarkflaglink

No we haven't. Please tell me your very simple solution. I am dying to know.

That West Bank and Gaza are separate governments impeding an all for all release is a bogus complication.

Forgive my ignorance, and maybe my brain is unable to comprehend the horrors, but I keep thinking of all the tunnels in Gaza. I keep thinking there are enough tunnels to have kept the women and children and other non combatants safe if Hamas wanted them to be safe. It's very sad.

― felicity, Tuesday, February 20, 2024 7:31 AM (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

You think two million people can live in tunnels?

― The British Boy of Film Classification (Tom D.), Tuesday, February 20, 2024 7:51 AM (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

this reminds me of the insane or evil, take your pick, israeli ambassador to the uk appearing on sky news and saying that hamas had constructed a billion dollar "terror city" in tunnels beneath gaza funded by foreign humanitarian aid. were we supposed to believe there were shops and schools and apartments down there or something?

and the tunnels had their own tunnels, under the terror city

I am under the impression that there are investigations and prosecutions under way internally in the IDF

haven't heard anything about these prosecutions, would like to know more

The reaction I did think was worth expanding was symsymsym's posting on Israeli's media reaction, which is one to minimise what is going on in Gaza.

To which I responded to say: Israeli people have internet. Surely they can see what the IDF is up to. Why are they not protesting more about this inside Israel, rather than just turning against Netanyahu, when their politicians are offering no end to the IDF's actions in Gaza, as far as I can see

just to follow up on this, I did mean that most Israelis' media diet avoids humanizing or empathizing the innocent victims in Gaza. In general, they don't want to know. My post included a quote by an Israeli TV journalist in that article who met with intense backlash for trying to present some degree of balance. Israelis are creating their own media bubbles (like a lot of other people these days).

haven't heard anything about these prosecutions, would like to know more

― symsymsym, Tuesday, February 20, 2024 7:45 AM bookmarkflaglink

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-probing-alleged-violations-of-regulations-and-international-law-during-war-on-hamas/

https://archive.ph/W6CVR

ty

Call me suspicious of a military investigating itself. Rarely yields actual discipline or much of anything else.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2020-10-03/ty-article-magazine/.premium/heres-happens-with-idf-investigations-into-deaths-of-innocent-palestinians/0000017f-e75a-d97e-a37f-f77f29620000

That West Bank and Gaza are separate governments impeding an all for all release is a bogus complication.

― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, February 20, 2024 5:00 AM bookmarkflaglink

Not sure if you are arguing for following international law (the ICJ order said "unconditional" release) or have a simple solution that involves all for all.

Since you wouldn't say it's complex, mind sharing the simple solution?

“Let’s let these genocidaires investigate whether they committed atrocities” like you realize this can’t be taken seriously.

Call me suspicious of a military investigating itself. Rarely yields actual discipline or much of anything else.

That is fair. Very big gap between what is and what ought to be in the law.

Yeah, it’s the same with cops.

the lack of consequences for the killing of Shireen Abu Akleh is one reason I don't trust the IDF investigation mechanisms (along with all the lying).

it's noteworthy that these investigations appear to mainly be for failures to follow internal policies - blowing up a school in Gaza without the proper permit.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/05/middleeast/idf-shireen-abu-akleh-investigation-intl/index.html

“Let’s let these genocidaires investigate whether they committed atrocities” like you realize this can’t be taken seriously.

― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Tuesday, February 20, 2024 8:30 AM bookmarkflaglink

I am responding to people who want to have a serious discussion and find a solution.

Do you have a better solution? I really want to know.

I have heard similar about sexual harassment investigations in the IDF.

Most moral and ethical army in the world. So they tell us.

I mean, ideally there would be an International war crimes tribunal looking into what Israel is doing/has done here, but as we know every international organization is illegitimate and full of Hamas supporters.

on that note, was this article from November shared here? it's an incredible piece of reporting:

https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/

Compared to previous Israeli assaults on Gaza, the current war — which Israel has named “Operation Iron Swords,” and which began in the wake of the Hamas-led assault on southern Israel on October 7 — has seen the army significantly expand its bombing of targets that are not distinctly military in nature. These include private residences as well as public buildings, infrastructure, and high-rise blocks, which sources say the army defines as “power targets” (“matarot otzem”).

The bombing of power targets, according to intelligence sources who had first-hand experience with its application in Gaza in the past, is mainly intended to harm Palestinian civil society: to “create a shock” that, among other things, will reverberate powerfully and “lead civilians to put pressure on Hamas,” as one source put it.

Several of the sources, who spoke to +972 and Local Call on the condition of anonymity, confirmed that the Israeli army has files on the vast majority of potential targets in Gaza — including homes — which stipulate the number of civilians who are likely to be killed in an attack on a particular target. This number is calculated and known in advance to the army’s intelligence units, who also know shortly before carrying out an attack roughly how many civilians are certain to be killed.

In one case discussed by the sources, the Israeli military command knowingly approved the killing of hundreds of Palestinian civilians in an attempt to assassinate a single top Hamas military commander. “The numbers increased from dozens of civilian deaths (permitted) as collateral damage as part of an attack on a senior official in previous operations, to hundreds of civilian deaths as collateral damage,” said one source.

“Nothing happens by accident,” said another source. “When a 3-year-old girl is killed in a home in Gaza, it’s because someone in the army decided it wasn’t a big deal for her to be killed — that it was a price worth paying in order to hit a target. We are not Hamas. These are not random rockets. Everything is intentional. We know exactly how much collateral damage there is in every home.”

Not sure if you are arguing for following international law (the ICJ order said "unconditional" release) or have a simple solution that involves all for all.

Since you wouldn't say it's complex, mind sharing the simple solution?

― felicity, Tuesday, 20 February 2024 bookmarkflaglink

All for all. Simple solutions. For free.

xp

I had had the feeling that the self-defense argument was patently ridiculous - even if you wipe out most of Hamas, aren't you just creating the next generation of violent resistance, whether it's under the name of Hamas or not? But lately I think there is a self-defense logic to the whole operation, that the 'collateral damage' is part of it, to cause such overwhelming destruction and misery that there is no longer any will to resist, or at least create an instinctual terror of doing anything that would provoke the Israelis. Essentially treating the Gazans as animals who need to be beaten. Of course this also makes the Israelis look like a country of inhuman monsters to a lot of people, and when you associate criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism, well, it's not exactly good for the Jews writ large. But hey, we can always come to Israel to be safe.

on that note, was this article from November shared here? it's an incredible piece of reporting:

https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/

― symsymsym, Tuesday, 20 February 2024 bookmarkflaglink

Seen it at the time. Felt the claims of these algs were inflated at the time but I didn't finish the piece then.

All for all. Simple solutions. For free.

― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, February 20, 2024 9:28 AM bookmarkflaglink

Ok then let's drop the pretense that this has anything to do with international law or you asking me to answer questions about law for you.

It's a waste of my time and that of others and allows you to be cruel while hiding your intentions. Well done.

that's how I feel too JoeStork

I am responding to people who want to have a serious discussion and find a solution.

Drop the cruel/shouting act, Felicity. Be serious. Share what you need to and I will do the same. If you ask questions of me I will do so if needed as well.

I ask questions to know the answer, not to troll people and hurt them and claim it was a joke. You know it and so do our friends. Stop.

xp to JoeStork and symsymsym: what is ironic is that Israel is demonstrably unsafe for Jewish people, entirely because of those in power hewing to a fascist settler ideology that precipitates retaliatory violence

'entirely' is doing a fuckload of work there!

I explained my posting of that tweet that led to a lot of argument. You've then kept on having a go at me. If you don't like it, don't have a go, xps

xpost to Andrew Farrell—

The violence of Israeli settlements and occupation precipitates the violence of Palestinian resistance which then precipitates the retaliation of the Israeli state, and so on.

The issue is that the Israeli state refuses to recognize as violence what is plainly violence from any objective viewpoint, thus refusing to remove itself from this cycle, and thus assuring that the cycle continues.

what is ironic is that Israel is demonstrably unsafe for Jewish people

This is one of the saddest aspects of Israel's policies — the whole promise of the Israeli state is Jewish security, that more than anything is its founding mission. But the policies of the Israeli government over the last 20 years in particular have made Israel's Jewish population increasingly less safe, with Oct. 7 being just the most glaring illustration.

xp - right, and it can be described, as you just did, as (wildly!) asymmetrical without being one-actor.

jfc the responses to this tweet, lesson is "stay off twitter" I guess?

One thing I'm noticing from my Israeli groupchats (the ones that aren't exclusively with academics and leftists) is that it seems most Israelis I know are genuinely in complete denial of what is happening in Gaza being as bad as it really is. Like literally denial

— Talia Ringer 🟣 🎗️ (@TaliaRinger) February 20, 2024

I am responding to people who want to have a serious discussion and find a solution.

Do you have a better solution? I really want to know.

No one on a Web 1.0 forum is finding the solution to a global conflict or an ongoing genocide.

The potential start to a solution is fairly self-evident though (Israel stops committing genocide, stops actively obstructing Palestinian self-governance giving rise to groups like Hamas, stops arresting and murdering Palestinians outside of the area where it’s actively committing genocide) and a necessary precursor to any discussion of a X-state solution.

This being a Web 1.0 forum rather than a diplomatic conference it’s useful for venting, sharing info on the ways that Israel is not doing any of the above, etc..

xp to JoeStork and symsymsym: what is ironic is that Israel is demonstrably unsafe for Jewish people, entirely because of those in power hewing to a fascist settler ideology that precipitates retaliatory violence

― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Tuesday, February 20, 2024 12:48 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

joestork was being sarcastic

when he said, "at least we can go to israel to be safe"

given the rest of his post, it was a little hard to tell. sorry JoeStork, sorry to offend your sensibilities vc.

"this makes israel less safe" is the tactic i try to take with the more zionist-leaning people in my orbit, can only get so far tho

xp no worries

I assume the position that the people directing and supporting this assault would take is that Israel was unsafe because they were too nice, they held back too much and allowed Hamas to build up their strength. "We had a ceasefire before Oct. 7" is the standard line. And the option of changing the material conditions of Palestinians can't be countenanced because it would look like giving Hamas a win. So the other option is to make Israel look like a monstrous force of nature that will obliterate anything in its path if disturbed. And I don't know, maybe that will make Israel 'safer' for a certain amount of time, or temporarily reduce the desire to significantly attack Israel. I think it also increases the feeling worldwide that the Jewish state is an evil regime that cannot be reasoned with and must be utterly destroyed, and certainly damages the safety of Jews around the world.

my social media bubble is very pro-Palestinian, but I occasionally see liberal-Zionist posts from someone I know from high school, recently sharing one of those "what it's like to be Jewish today" accounts. Which listed a series of traumatic issues for Jews writ large, including some recent incidents of anti-Semitism, and also "the deaths of innocents martyred by the death cults running their governments." And it just fucking breaks my brain seeing this torturing of language to make sure Israel has absolutely no agency in this, as if the missiles with hilarious messages on them got sent off to blow up ambulances all by themselves. To be Jewish in their eyes is to be terribly sad that every Gazan life is now forfeit, nothing to be done about it unless Hamas surrenders.

JoeStork your posts today putting into words feelings I have been having. Thank you.

And yet you also agree with me that the military investigating itself rarely leads to discipline or action of any substance. I am confused by what seems like inconsistency here.

No. Don't be confused. What I agree with is that legal systems can be imperfect and need reforming. I don't have empirical information on how often military investigations yield those outcomes.

And I generally don't believe that what has happened in the past is the only indicator of what what can or should happen in the future, especially on this topic.

That said, the idea that the IDF— a murderous terrorist organization— will discipline itself strains credulity.

Knowing your views generally, I understand this. I see things differently - the delta between what is and what ought to be, and how to get from A to B.

I mean, this is why you’re involved in the legal field and I am not— we have different relationships to institutions of justice (or injustice, as I would have it). That’s fine— it’s not like my cynicism has done me many favors! (Also this isn’t meant as judgment, just observation)

Militaries do sometimes court martial their own members for carrying out illegal acts, but do militaries ever hold themselves accountable for official acts?

Like America has not prosecuted the generals in thd Vietnam or Iraq Wars for instance

Maybe? Militaries being held accountable as entities sounds like reparations or official national apologies, like the negotiations over comfort women

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_women

The core problem of the entire idea of the IDF 'disciplining itself' is that we have to pretend that soldiers aren't acting under orders.

They've been routinely killing civilians for decades. This is not some new creation of this conflict, it's what the IDF does.

Have we mentioned that the USA was the sole veto in yesterdays UN security council on a ceasefire, again.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/20/us-vetoes-un-resolution-ceasefire-israel-gaza

And guys, stop doing personal beefs in the thread about genocidal actions. It is distasteful. There are other venues