Israel/Palestine post 10/7 - follow-on events/thoughts as relate to other countries

PRO-PALESTINE ACTIVIST: “I’ve seen 🎥of shredded children’s bodies. That’s my tax money bombing those kids.”@AndyOgles: “I think we should kill em all, if that makes you feel better.”

ACTIVIST: “Do you even have a heart?”

OGLES: “Death to Hamas.”

A disturbing Ogles exchange. pic.twitter.com/Dpnjqzw43n

— The Tennessee Holler (@TheTNHoller) February 21, 2024

not really sending our best

saying the quiet parts out loud

Same dude: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tennessee-andy-ogles-responds-critics-christmas-card-family-guns/

He's a creep, and what's worse is that that's a former Democratic district that got seriously gerrymandered a few years ago.

On that Pelosi clip, there seems to be more (admittedly small and idk how verifiable) videos and accounts purportedly from inside Palestine of small protests and Gazan people trying to say they dont want war, they dont want Hamas, they just want to live and send their kids to school.

https://twitter.com/khalidi79397

There is a podcast called Unapologetic: the Third Narrative from 2 Palestinian-Israeli peace activists. Their takeaway from the first episode is to ask people in the West to question everything.

https://open.spotify.com/show/5CT8QicPO31pe7AX0jA4Wp

I'd certainly question that twitter account's claim to be what it says it is

i wouldnt say that comes across as a very convincing fake no

That's good to question. Curious, what would be the indicators for you - is it the message itself or likes or follows or how would you go about verifying or debunking it? Personally I check Shayan Sahardzieh's account and look for bias voting on sources if any exist. Looking to understand more.

This podcast too, I wonder what people think.

Sorry for misspelling. It's Shayan Sardarizadeh ( @shayan86 )

aside from the weird framing/language (Pragmatic!) and exact fit for an ideal type ("Why don't you demand that Hamas surrenders?" - who is being triangulated within this?), I looked at the followers and there was a high proportion of people who mostly post islamophobia and similarly weird accounts like the palestinians for peace one, created in 2024 ("As real Palestinians, we call for a end of hamas and the PLO and all other Palestinian terrorist organizations, we support the democratic state of Israel").

xp
I no longer have an X account so it is a little challenging to do research. For example, I can't see the posts in chronological order, nor can I read replies or check out followers. I also did not read every single tweet they have ever posted so when I say "zero" or "no" below I'm surmising.

But, basically I find the possibility that a real Palestinian person, who joined Twitter in October 2023 and posts only (afaict) in English, would post in this fashion: exclusively critical of Hamas with what appear to be zero criticisms of Israel's response, no mention of settler and IDF violence in the West Bank where Hamas is not in power, tweets like this that take issue with as noncontroversial a word as "occupied":

People who call you a Zionist are often those who usually hate Jews.

People who hate Jews frequently believe in conspiracy theories.

People who believe in conspiracy theories typically love buzzwords like 'open-air prison,' 'genocide,' 'occupation,' and 'unicorns.'>

— Ahmed Al-Khalidi (@khalidi79397) February 9, 2024

tweets like this that equate Jewish Voice for Peace with the KKK and Nazis:

Nazis to Germans,
Kach to Israelis,
KKK to Americans,
Hamas to Palestinians,
JVP to Jews.

You are poison.

— Ahmed Al-Khalidi (@khalidi79397) January 22, 2024

Why would a "liberal" Palestinian have this opinion about JVP? It defies logic imo.

tweets like that merely repeat Israeli propaganda:

Destruction of Hamas's General Headquarters tunnels in northern Gaza. pic.twitter.com/lOE2A7dspt

— Ahmed Al-Khalidi (@khalidi79397) December 29, 2023

I could go on, but honestly I can't see how you'd see this account as anything other than blatant propaganda. To be sure, I have no theory as to who is behind the account in reality and for all I know maybe it makes a good point here or there. But I find it overwhelmingly unconvincing and, assuming I'm right, a pretty gross act of impersonation.

That last line would be a big tell for sure. I would certainly be suspicious of anyone claiming to be the "real" version of anything.

xp

Why would a "liberal" Palestinian have this opinion about JVP? It defies logic imo

Thanks. I dont have a definitive answer for you. I have read very mixed opinions about JVP, including on ILX, not all positive.

i wouldnt say that comes across as a very convincing fake no

That's an understatement.

yes Tom that is my crisp understated style thank you for noticing

I don't have an opinion about JVP, personally. I just find it extremely doubtful that a Palestinian would have such strong feelings about them that he'd refer to them as the Jewish version of the Nazi party.

But ultimately: anything is possible in this world, so I could be wrong. Maybe this is a legit Palestinian, who, despite setting my personal bullshit detector ringing, genuinely exists and holds these opinions. Even still, the account is nakedly biased toward Israel and not remotely trustworthy as a source of on-the-ground opinion in Palestine (as mentioned I didn't read every post they've ever made, but do they ever say where they are posting from?).

I'll admit that it's a little unfair that I haven't gone poking into any of the accounts that posters like xyzzz have linked on ilx. You'll simply have to take my word that I almost always ignore those posts as generally I read about these events in more mainstream sources like the Guardian, NYT, and Al Jazeera and don't feel much interest in following this via social media (also, no X account), even though I wouldn't dismiss the potential for soc med communicating info censored in other places.

I clicked on that account because your post about it piqued my curiosity. I've been rereading Joe Sacco's Palestine, which was written in the early 90s and while I've primarily been reminded of how long the daily grind of oppression of Palestinians has been going on, the book also testifies to the diversity of political opinion in Gaza at the time of the first intifada. So I was intrigued by the possibility of anti-Hamas sentiment, but that account completely lacks credibility.

Thats a pretty poor fake, though only 4473 followers for an account set up in October 2023 suggests its freelance

The only follower of any note seems to be Eli Lake, who appears to be a well known journalist. How did you come across this tweet?

Don’t really see what that fake account has to do with Pelosi’s inability to answer a question about the Biden admin’s failure to act in any case.

(First I want to be clear that these statements from US representatives are reprehensible)

What local Gazans actually want would have to do with the Pelosi tweet is that in one of the follow up tweets Pelosi was saying "I don't hear any of them saying Hamas is a terrorist organization, I am hearing them praising Hamas and I hear them ignoring the hostages" I wondered if that was even true that she had never seen it or if, assuming hypothetically, she was shown a non zero amount of opposition to Hamas within Gaza if that would change her statement or US policy justifications.

There is a poll from December maybe that purports to show 70% of Gazans are in favor of Hamas or believe the 10/7 attack was justified and I have seen this cited as justification etc. But that could be taken out of context if local media states that only military were targeted, and that would change the way that 70% number would be interpreted in the West.

But even assuming the 70% were accurate, by logic 30% then might not support Hamas or might not believe 10/7 was justifiable. And so even on its face that doesnt seem a supportable statement from Pelosi.

With regard to Israeli popular voices i think that is sort of the position of the Unapologetic podcasters. They say they are Palestinian as well as Israeli citizens, their view seems to be peace above all else so I am listening and looking for voices from Gaza and Palestine.

Pelosi also called pro-Palestine activists pawns of Russia. She's a delulu hundredmillionaire who shouldn't be trusted about anything.

"Even still, the account is nakedly biased toward Israel and not remotely trustworthy as a source of on-the-ground opinion in Palestine"

In all my time looking at this through twitter I haven't really come across anything that could be considered general opinions on Hamas by Palestinians in Gaza. I don't see how a poll could even be taken under current circumstances, or what would that mean. It's not like civilian life will ever be reconstructed anytime soon so that a thing like an election could take place to er, remove Hamas.

Palestinian/Gaza twitter has been a mix of personal remarks of loss, appeals for help - - which range from an encouragement for Westerners to keep marching, to fundraisers for families and to any help for anyone to move out of Gaza - - to simple accounts of survival. Like a bit of bread is being baked for the day.

"You'll simply have to take my word that I almost always ignore those posts as generally I read about these events in more mainstream sources like the Guardian, NYT, and Al Jazeera"

Well, you shouldn't. I understand it's a fucked up platform but no account of this genocide will be complete without a thorough dissection of those tweets.

At least the tweets I bring here :-)

I was also wondering how a poll could be taken. I'll share the purported source.

Re: elections - One of the articles covering a controversy about whether Harvard school of public health should go foward with a proposed summer collaboration with Birzeit University from West Bank this summer (location would be in Jordan) mentioned that student government elections is watched as an indicator of public sentiment given there have been no election in Gaza since 2006. The Hamas party won the most recent Birzeit election which is why the program is controversial, also a Haaretz reporter was some years ago told she wsd banned from the campus.

https://fxb.harvard.edu/racial-justice/palestine-program/palestine-social-medicine-course/

Agreed it's better to put things forward for baselines and discussions. Iran, North Korea, and China, for instance, are or are going the way of hermetically sealing off information while genocide, famine or other crimes are happening there. Sometimes Twitter, reddit, Telegram are what people have.

Apparently it was during the previous ceasefire:

Despite the devastation, 57% of respondents in Gaza and 82% in the West Bank believe Hamas was correct in launching the October attack, the poll indicated. A large majority believed Hamas’ claims that it acted to defend a major Islamic shrine in Jerusalem against Jewish extremists and win the release of Palestinian prisoners. Only 10% said they believed Hamas has committed war crimes, with a large majority saying they did not see videos showing the militants committing atrocities.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514

https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:sc:US:90115ec4-d6cc-4ca0-a310-370d4bcbd20d

I think Netanayhu has done a pretty good job of ensuring Hamas' popularity is at an all time high.

"You'll simply have to take my word that I almost always ignore those posts as generally I read about these events in more mainstream sources like the Guardian, NYT, and Al Jazeera"

Well, you shouldn't. I understand it's a fucked up platform but no account of this genocide will be complete without a thorough dissection of those tweets.

― xyzzzz__, Friday, February 23, 2024 6:05 PM (one hour ago)

tbrr I don't think I could handle a complete account of this genocide, mental health-wise, which is another reason I tend not to click through to video clips and the like. I doubt people itt really care about my media diet, but fwiw I also read/consult lots of other sources just not as regularly

Netanyahu is pro-Hamas too: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Understood, Rob. I have avoided video clips where I can but sometimes they have seeped through.

Also glad I have avoided some of the ghouls that have written on this conflict.

pic.twitter.com/ZlH0LC323g

— Berlinale (@berlinale) February 25, 2024

https://www.thedailybeast.com/new-york-times-reviewing-reporter-anat-schwartz-for-liking-gaza-slaughterhouse-tweet

This sounds too crazy to believe but it appears Anat Schwartz had never been a reporter before (was a filmmaker) and saw the 40 babies hoax, believed it, shared it, and then was subsequently tasked by the NEW YORK TIMES to adjudicate the final record on 10/7 atrocities. Her… https://t.co/XXCuadNsuJ

— Ryan Grim (@ryangrim) February 24, 2024

Aaron Bushnell has died from his injuries.

Why did he do it?

Four major news outlets have almost the exact same headline for the self-immolation of 25-year old Aaron Bushnell. Not one of them mentions the words “Gaza” or “genocide,” the reason for Aaron’s protest, or the word “Palestine,” his last words spoken. pic.twitter.com/MdRCFsptzD

— Assal Rad (@AssalRad) February 26, 2024

Pelosi also called pro-Palestine activists pawns of Russia

I mainly recall her insinuating that some activists were being bankrolled by China; she was speaking specifically, I think, about Code Pink activists, and Code Pink is, in fact, supported by China.

“I think … some of these protesters are spontaneous and organic and sincere,” Pelosi said. “Some, I think, are connected to Russia. And I say that having looked at this for a long time now, as you know.”

When pressed on whether she believed some of the demonstrators were “Russian plants,” Ms. Pelosi said: “Seeds or plants. I think some financing should be investigated. And I want to ask the F.B.I. to investigate that.”

She also said the people protesting outside of her house were "praising Hamas."

She's a real nice lady.

But I guess "Everyone who disagrees with me is a foreign op" is standard politics now

God just die already lady

https://www.npr.org/2024/02/25/1233810136/fire-man-israeli-embassy-washington

“As of Monday morning, NPR was not able to independently verify the man's motives.”

Jeesus effing christ NPR

Our film “No Other Land” on occupied Masafer Yatta’s brutal expulsion won best documentary in Berlinale. Israel’s channel 11 aired this 30 second segment from my speech, insanely called it “anti semitic” - and I’ve been receiving death threats since. I stand behind every word. pic.twitter.com/2burPfZeKO

— Yuval Abraham יובל אברהם (@yuval_abraham) February 25, 2024

Yeah, Pelosi’s thing was “go back to China, where your headquarters is” to a protestors outside her house on Oct 29th.

https://sfstandard.com/2024/01/30/nancy-pelosi-go-back-to-china-protest-code-pink/

Longtime viewers will remember that she also made her own flight to Taiwan in mid-2022 to aggravate Chinese relations and because liberal anti-communism will never die.

I think it's everyone's dream to start a war before they die

That Yuval Abraham speech is right on. Honestly can't understand what grounds there would be to call anything in it anti-semitic.

A friend posted this on IG. I agree with him 100%.

"Most people are getting their news about Gaza from mainstream media. Among many other problems, this means near-total ignorance of a crucial aspect of this conflict. Israel is not merely murdering thousands upon thousands of Palestinians, and starving them, and destroying their homes and hospitals and schools and archives, and poisoning the wells and the land itself. Israel is doing all this and very very publicly rejoicing in it, reveling, celebrating, taking a grotesque collective joy in this horror.

Imagine if the Abu Ghraib photographs, rather than being leaked, had been shared by US soldiers on social media with millions of people. And that they'd shared thousands more pictures just like them. And that an enormous percentage of the American public had eaten them up and shared them and begged for more. And that US politicians and celebrities had then gone on TV and social media and hailed the soldiers for their work, and declared their satisfaction and personal glee in seeing such images. That is what's happening with Israel now."

Summary on where we're at, one month on.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/02/26/israel-not-complying-world-court-order-genocide-case

Seems pretty thorough on settlements and connections to the US

"The Hebrew term “yishuv” (residential community) is often used by settlement supporters to erase the distinction between “hitnakhlut” (settlements) and towns in Israel proper. “The most sought-after, vital and literally life-saving item for defending the Yishuvim is a drone equipped with a thermal camera that detects approaching terrorists at night,” Gordon wrote. Supporters could donate online or write a check to Israel Empowered, a New York-based charity."

What a way to live.

https://newlinesmag.com/reportage/a-fanatical-israeli-settlement-is-funded-by-new-york-suburbanites/