US Politics, March 2024: The house of illuminati will NOT be holding any other event in the foreseeable future.

does the genocide stop once the GOP retakes control?

zients is a disaster

Wish Ron Klain was still the president

You disapprove of this stance? Fine. But I am not the one who can change what is happening— that's on Joe Biden.

This is fair, and probably many of us have individual red-line issues that by themselves can make it hard to pull that lever.

The one thing that I think is important is to put all this stuff in political rather than strictly moral context. Let's say Biden acted on Gaza in a way that you personally could support and thereby win your vote. What if — and I'm not asserting this, just making it a hypothetical — whatever action is necessary to get your vote and the votes of others like you was simultaneously politically harmful to him in such a way that he would lose more votes than he gains? And therefore also potentially the election? Worth it?

This is the problem I think with investing too much moral hope or passion at the presidential level. You've got two candidates vying to represent the whole country. I accept that there are some things that would make me really like a candidate that could also make them unelectable. Do I want them to do them anyway? Not necessarily! I care more about The Bad Guys having less power to affect my life and the lives of those around me than I do about moral/principled stands by losing candidates.

But obv ymmv

(And by calling one side The Bad Guys, I don't mean to imply that the other side is The Good Guys. I will settle for The Less Bad Guys.)

The one thing that I think is important is to put all this stuff in political rather than strictly moral context. Let's say Biden acted on Gaza in a way that you personally could support and thereby win your vote. What if — and I'm not asserting this, just making it a hypothetical — whatever action is necessary to get your vote and the votes of others like you was simultaneously politically harmful to him in such a way that he would lose more votes than he gains? And therefore also potentially the election? Worth it?

Yes, but I don't think this is what would happen— just as people will vote for him while he's aiding and abetting genocide, they will vote for him when he isn't doing so, and he will probably *gain* a number of voters, too.

question for those who disapprove of biden's ongoing, blind support of genocide, but are voting for him because not voting for biden is essentially a vote for trump (note -- i may fall into this camp):

how should everyday people like you or me exert pressure on biden and nearly all democratic senators to stop supporting genocide? is there anything more persuasive than "we won't vote for you"? what is the correct way to try to stop support for genocide while still voting for the person who enables it?

because unless i'm mistaken, democrats are counting on people like us to vote for them despite their support for genocide, which i believe means we have zero leverage in their thinking on it

Local action, local candidates. If you're in a safely blue district, organize for or at least vote for the most progressive candidates you can find for state legislature and Congress. That's where you're more likely to get those voices willing and able to speak up.

well the assumption there is that if the Dems start *losing* elections, they'll start changing their positions on these sorts of issues...which we clearly can see has never really happened

If candidates aren't losing elections on issues, then not enough people care about those issues, so that's where the work has to start.

So much of electoral politics is the end point of social/political movements. It's only very recently that, say, base-level LGBTQ rights have become a pretty standard expected position for Democratic candidates. That wasn't true even 10 years ago. That's not because we got a bunch of new bold Democrats, it's because the culture changed.

well the assumption there is that if the Dems start *losing* elections, they'll start changing their positions on these sorts of issues

i'm not sure that is the assumption - ideally democratic politicians would listen to their constituents in real time, feel the pressure of declining support among their base (and maybe a tinge of complicity in a morally bankrupt conflict) and change their positions *before* they lose elections

I guess part of it for me is also... I just don't see how US backing of the genocide would lessen under Trump. Lots of other things would definitely get worse and it's not like Trump would just magically turn on Netanyahu if he wins.

i am definitely not a person who...wants the word? chatgpt, help me computer god. "revolutionary extremist?" lol? anyway, i am not a person who actively hopes for the defeat of the lone major political party in the u.s. that is not made up of white evangelical fascists, in order to accelerate the dawn of the new future society which is going to be so much better. i am waaaaaay too pessimistic for that. this shitty society we're in right now is likely to be the best that we or any of the next several generations have.

so no, i'm not actually asking about the utility of people withholding their vote in order to make the democrats lose and teach them a lesson, i'm talking about a more democratic idea of political leaders listening to people and their own conscience at the same time

On Israel in particular, what we're seeing now from squishy libs is exactly what AIPAC and others have been building for years, decades. There is barely an elected official of either party at just about any level who hasn't been offered a trip to Israel, this has been cultivated and invested in over a long period of time, specifically so American politicians will mostly think favorably of Israel and not ask too many questions about it.

So we're not just up against Joe Biden's personal view or wishes (whatever those may be), we're up against an entrenched and constantly reinforced idea that in American politics, a certain level of default support for Israel is just automatic — not just for moral reasons, but because it's good politics. The Democratic establishment surely believes that at this point as much as the Republican establishment, and so far they don't have any reason not to.

There's also money:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/jan/10/congress-member-pro-israel-donations-military-support

And on Biden's lifelong commitment to the Zionist project:
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/i-am-zionist-how-joe-bidens-lifelong-bond-with-israel-shapes-war-policy-2023-10-21/#:~:text=Entering%20national%20politics%20in%201973,vice%20president%20and%20finally%20president.

well again, that happening would have to start with the humiliating defeat of the Republican party, since they're the party who has effectively said "fuck it" wholesale to pretty much all political issues and made the entire party platform just "Make America Great Again". this is the party that ran Dr. Oz and an obviously brain-damaged Herschel Walker, this is the party who has thrown all their support behind a reality show star who committed nearly 100 felonies in broad daylight (and is also a confirmed sexpest), this is the party that basically passes zero bills when they do have power, and in fact will torpedo stuff solely so they can campaign on it later. if any meaningful change is gonna happen it needs to start by getting these unserious assholes out of office for good.

xp tipsy

otm - also, although democratic voters have shifted a bit away from supporting israel, support for the palestinians is still pretty much a wash with israel. and the majority of democratic voters still "don't take a side"

https://i.imgur.com/7WnbJ3l.png

https://i.imgur.com/lJyqpMO.png

(oh jeez, those charts only go up to pre-Oct 7. i was reading this article from just the other day so i assumed it was with updated polling post-Oct 7)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/02/29/palestine-democrat-support-election-voters-israel/

(anyway please ignore)

The polls have definitely shown some shifts because of the atrocities in Gaza — I believe that same Chicago Council polled showed a total of 53 percent of respondents said that U.S. military aid to Israel should not be used against Palestinians.

So one way to look at what's going on is that the outcry both here and abroad IS making a difference. I think you wouldn't have had Harris' statement yesterday without it. I think a lot of Americans have misgivings. But also, my guess is that even for that 53%, this is not a single-issue vote/won't vote thing. For nervous Dems in close races, there's still going to be a strong perception that there's a lot more risk in November of being perceived as "antisemitic" (which everyone's against) than "pro-genocide" (which many people don't think is really what's going on).

There's a very good profile of Biden in the latest New Yorker.

how should everyday people like you or me exert pressure on biden and nearly all democratic senators to stop supporting genocide? is there anything more persuasive than "we won't vote for you"? what is the correct way to try to stop support for genocide while still voting for the person who enables it?

― z_tbd, Monday, March 4, 2024 1:08 PM

I work locally to get as many progressive candidates as possible. Some of the candidates give me heartburn. But my friends in Orlando were proud they got a candidate as far-left-for-Florida as Maxwell Frost. Someone like him would be ideal in Miami-Dade; unfortunately, our club includes Everyone Not a Fascist, which means we have members who support the genocide against Palestinians. It also means I head from a moron who thinks Biden's so weak on Israel i.e. kissing Bibi's ass, that she's thinking voting for...Nikki Haley.

We got into a shouting match last month. We're not talking. This is to give you an idea about herding these cats.

My nephew tells me, he and all his first time voting college freshman friends, most of whom come from liberal east coast suburbs, are planning to vote for RFK jr. because Biden is supports war criminals.

are these dummies under the impression RFK Jr would have some kind of different policy re: israel? Dude loves Israel.

Ds love Kennedys

John and Bobby, anyway.

Ted was liked until he turned his car into a swimming pool and killed a woman

Ds don't love RFJ Jr, only weirdo dimwits do

haha RJF. RKP. RMA. whatever

RFP

Ted was liked until he turned his car into a swimming pool and killed a woman

He was sort of the Jim Belushi of the Kennedys.

And RFK Jr was the Hunter Biden of the Kennedys
Had competition though.

RFK Jr. is the Sydney Sweeney of Arrakis #onethread

Amazingly, the New York Times profiled actual Biden supporters. (Gift link.)

We have a few guys as young as the guy with the Biden cutout but without the cutout.

I feel like this should be put on a T-shirt and sold by the Biden campaign. I think a lot of people feel this way, or are at least in the like category.(And yes, sure, I know plenty of people disagree.)

“He loves Mr. Biden. “And I feel like I’m the only one,” he said, arguing that the news media had overwhelmingly focused on Mr. Biden’s tepid support. “Does anybody care that I exist?””

“Does anybody care that I exist?””

Bob Geldof's long-awaited charity follow up

T-shirt in gigantic Impact font:

BIDEN
RULES
FUIUD

lol idk I'm gonna vote for the war criminal ofc but that's too far for me

https://i.imgur.com/zkgCFxy.gif

There's a candidate on my CA Dem primary ballot named "PRESIDENT R BODDIE"

His name appears right about Joseph R Biden Jr. Ballot shenanigans?

Lol

No, he's a real person, a weirdo from Alaska

https://voterguide.sos.ca.gov/candidates/president/president-dem-cand-statements.htm#:~:text=President%20R.%20Boddie%20%7C%20DEMOCRATIC,as%20a%20write%2Din%20contender.

Totally on board the Dawson train

I don't know about that one guy who wants to "close the US borders until the laws are written properly". Doesn't seem to me like a well thought out idea.

Trump talks about shutting the borders all the time, but where will we get affordable avocados?

Not to mention the hundred thousand ordinary people who legally cross US borders every day, by car, plane, train, on foot, or on bikes.

if you want to send biden a message, go vote in the primary for Williamson, uncommitted, or your own write in, depending on your state's rules.

And definitely vote in the prez primary - as a veteran of multiple campaigns, I've seen how when the most progressive voices sit out a primary, local candidates with limited resources won't seek out these non-voters in future primaries until after they've went through everyone within the 'always votes' demo (if they even have enough vols to do so). I guess that makes sense - it's like when you are moving from one apartment to another, who do you depend upon to help - people who answer your calls and texts or someone who doesn't?

Sigh, OK fine. I was honestly not going to vote in my primary because I have no competitive races (and am willing to vote for Biden in November but not excited enough to go vote for him on a blank primary ballot). But you're right, it's important to be on the record as a voter.