Are you an immigrant?

I’m sorry to derail but can we talk about the ethics of moving to another country.

It's perfectly ethical, as long as you're not white. That's what you're dying to hear, right?

here's a thought. how about saying something on the subject that you don't think is patently stupid?

...and then assigning that stupidity to someone else

i would enjoy a chance to live out of usa, in quite a number of places, but it will not happen. circumstances-- including family, insurance, and finances-- do not permit it.

ughh Rob, you're a sweetheart, i wouldn't want you to worry about it esp. since nobody else seems to have taken it the way i did

For one, I did wonder if the word "immigrant" was the right choice or if "migrant" might be broader/better, though that tends to be used in a pretty specific & charged way these days, so maybe not. As ever on ilx, there could also be geo-cultural differences at play here. Given my personal history, I tend not to associate "immigrant" with necessarily having made a free and conscious choice

neither do i, all of this sounds right on the money to me.

i was also so young when i came here (persecution/conflict) that my experience is closer in some ways to American-born children of immigrants than to what my parents went through- plus they & a lot of my extended family went through it twice!

Heck I’m still in the postcode I come from

lol

It's perfectly ethical, as long as you're not white. That's what you're dying to hear, right?

― Tahuti Watches L&O:SVU Reruns Without His Ape (unperson),

You been to Cape Town?

I’m sorry to derail but can we talk about the ethics of moving to another country. I know some ppl that moved from the US to South Africa for a good cause but are now just sticking around for the quality of life. They are white. It bothers me every time I visit

I'm genuinely curious as to why you find this bothersome. Also curious as to what "quality of life" in this context refers to.

Regarding the ethics involved, I am all for the free movement of people. I am not sure what would be unethical about moving to another country, unless it were to somehow commit sabotage in that country.

Omg do you all know what SA is like or just randomly bullshitting?

That's not really responsive.

Ok sorry. Most of the black ppl live in settlements while the minority white ppl live in gated communities. Last time I was there I saw a dead person on the road who was hit by a car because you have to walk across the interstate to get to the grocery store. It’s fucked up.

I also feel this way about ppl moving to the south for tax reasons and then voting to keep taxes low while the counties around them crumble.

I asked a few questions, if you don't mind responding to them.

good questions! i think SA has actually been pretty good about encouraging companies to hire local staff for "plum" jobs. it's definitely more complex than how everyone read my question, and it was a genuine question about the ethics of expat life. what tends to happen in SA is that you have access to very cheap labor. you will have a live-in maid/nanny even though that would be out of the question in the states. that's a big help when you're raising kids and allows you to have a lot more freedom. it's not even really a choice. if you don't hire someone they say you're putting someone out of job. you also have access to some of the most beautiful beaches in the world, let alone the wildlife. but only the rich ppl have access to those things. I know these are not bad people but the husband refuses to leave and there is absolutely no reason to be there. it's been 16 years now.

so are they actively harming anyone? no, but it's starting to feel gross.

It can be complicated. My grandfather spent some years teaching at universities in India as a Fulbright scholar. He was more or less required to have servants, not simply because his high status position demanded those trappings, but because it gave employment to several poor people in a place where not having servants would have been viewed as selfish and mean-spirited by the local population.

This is nowhere near as drastic as what's being discussed here re: South Africa, but Portugal has been getting a steady stream of "digital nomads" and the consequences are cost of living and housing goes up due to a population of ppl with UK/US/Germany/etc level salaries, local population gets priced out of city centres and beyond. Similar dynamics to gentrification and as with gebtrification you can say the ultimate responsibility lies with the state's unwillingness to manage these dynamics rather than with the gentrifiers themselves but yeah, fraught for sure.

Def still something you should do if you're moving anywhere tho.

I remember to say “parking lot” nearly all the time, but Fahrenheit is impenetrable.

Simply living, even by assignment, where the failure to have “servants” is objectionable, makes you an accessory to social and political crimes.

I am an immigrant from Upper Michigan to Illinois, Minnesota, and Wisconsin, in that order. Life behind the Cheddar Curtain is tolerable due to my proximity to Lake Michigan.

ilx yooper alert.

btw with those homebases you're anything but a lions fan. lean packers imho

Simply living, even by assignment, where the failure to have “servants” is objectionable, makes you an accessory to social and political crimes.

Glad to see a nuanced take on teaching university students in India in the 1950s.

you get it, old man.

i’m pretty old too, and much respect, aimless.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

I'd love moving to SA at some point in my life, preferably as an active person. It's a life decision like any other, with pros and cons. If you are wondering what the social dynamics and perception of foreigners are like, maybe visit and spend some time there to get an idea, it's far from simplistic. Skin color is definitely not the sole factor. On the ethical part of the equation, I think it's a good thing to think about, there are some big questions to ask yourself and that South Africans will ask you too. Don't overthink your importance though.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

ilxors may not be the movers and shakers of this world, but it appears that quite a few are movers

And I have the shakes