Is accountability dead?

taking my dipstick comments section hat off now

xp - That's all fair, though I was hoping to expand the scope of the discussion beyond just "politicians" and other traditional public-facing leaders, I'm interested in accountability in all forms, and how it does (or doesn't) work today - i.e. societal at large, peer groups, coworkers, family members, etc etc. I do agree it is foolish to expect the "right" politician or power-seeking group to magically make things right, but I think accountability can take other forms as well and, since the pandemic, I feel like it's failing on these other levels as well.

capitalism runs everything with an iron fist and the primary purpose of the state no matter what party you belong to is to uphold that, for sure. but things like power, selfishness, greed and violence have always been with us. along with tons of selflessness and beauty. i think it's healthy to develop a relationship with and perspective on those aspects of human existence. we're all connected to them in some way, no matter how strong one's very american impulse to puritanism manifests itself.

xp i don't actually think "accountability" as such is what motivates people to act "good". fear of being held accountable is a disciplinary thing. it probably does have a place, but ultimately i don't think it's very effective at changing people.

And down to just daily life things, like how absolutely terrible drivers have become.

I've always been a defensive pedestrian but it's definitely ramped up to 'keep my head on a swivel at all times' levels of late. Granted, I walk about 4 miles a day to and from work so there are lots of opportunities, but I think it would be fair to estimate that I nearly get creamed by a car an average of three times a week. Almost always by someone making a left turn, very few of whom slow down even after I can tell that they've visually acknowledged the presence of someone in the crosswalk. The possibility of blithe vehicular manslaughter is now apparently just accepted as an annoying wrinkle in one's busy day.

Yesterday, on, my way to work, I was waiting for a family to cross at a crosswalk and the psychopath behind me just blared on his horn over and over, inching closer and closer to my bumper before getting so angry he whipped around me to fly through the intersection. He missed one of the kids by about two feet. Didn't fucking care, he had places to be apparently.

Which brings me to the thoughts that inspired this thread. It seems, and likely is, impossible to hold that kind of dangerous driver accountable for actions like that. But it seems worth it, because that kind of driver obviously represents a clear threat to others. Instead we just sigh and accept that being mown down by a psycho like that is just the price of leaving your house.

There's a street out my kitchen window here in Oakland that people treat like an extension of the freeway, easily roaring down at 60 or 70mph
And because we have essentially no traffic enforcement whatsoever, they have no reason not to.. and old man and hit dog were hit and killed in the crosswalk just last week

i mean to me this is where you get all this "cancel culture" stuff, people trying to hold other people accountable for their actions

which is a nice idea but the people trying to do it by and large don't have the ability to do it correctly - i don't mean on a personal level. i mean the idea of something being objectively wrong. "accountability" is kind of implicitly dependent on having a monoculture, where everybody has a shared set of moral and ethical standards, and violations of those moral and ethical standards are dealt with fairly and objectively

like, what's the difference between "accountability" and "justice"? is justice dead? personally i'd say yes. yes, justice is dead. given that the justice system that's dead was... pretty bad in a lot of ways, patriarchal, racist, homophobic... i got mixed feelings about it. i'd like to believe in the possibility of a better, more just world. really though all i see is a world with different problems than the ones i grew up with.

That's a good point, which is why I purposely focused on "accountability" because the modern justice system has so long been void of actual "justice" and is instead a system of enriching some people while continuing to deny the humanity of others.

To my mind "justice" is intrinsically tied to "punishment" and "force" at this point in human (esp American) history, while I still think there is enough wiggle room in the concept of "accountability" to think of it as a type of redirection (for lack of a better word) for bad behavior that could, theoretically, come from the sides and bottom and not just top-down.

Elon Musk is a wonderful example of non-accountability outside of politicians. Surprised his name hasn't surfaced here, yet.

In the broader sense of the thread question, accountability is where ethics meet enforcement. The basic mechanisms of enforcement are informal, but highly effective, embodied in various social mores, mainly involving shame and ostracism, or praise and reward. Those mechanisms are founded in the individual's desire to belong and be accepted by their social group.

The other basic mechanism of accountability is government, where a society enforces accountability through laws and compulsion through force.

Both of these mechanisms in the USA have become entirely captive to the destructive logic of capitalism. This ain't nothing new. It's been inherent in the USA since its infancy. All that is new is the complete efficiency with which the competing forces of capital all agree upon the desirability of removing all accountability from their actions, by controlling and manipulating the desire for accountability in society, by redirecting it into scapegoating, tribalism, legalism and distraction.

So, accountability isn't totally dead, but it is sick, feverish, confused and delirious, lashing out at imaginary foes (see: conspiracy theories, manufactured crises, moral panics, etc.). You can't eliminate the human desire for accountability and justice, but you can warp it and pervert it. That's where I see us as being now.

The tribalism and polarization of politics in the USA

To my mind "justice" is intrinsically tied to "punishment" and "force" at this point in human (esp American) history, while I still think there is enough wiggle room in the concept of "accountability" to think of it as a type of redirection (for lack of a better word) for bad behavior that could, theoretically, come from the sides and bottom and not just top-down.

― Maxmillion D. Boosted (jon /via/ chi 2.0)

maybe if we had unions or something lol