Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

Exactly, the idea that the BBC has left-centre bias is laughable.

Ben-Dror Yemini, in no way a man of the left, goes off on Netanyahu in Yediot Aharonot:

https://www.ynet.co.il/yedioth/article/yokra13846370

The gist: Netanyahu has no plan for the end of the war, is handing Hamas a huge victory and is pissing away Israel's standing in the United States, is surrendering to Ben Gvir and Smotrich, needs to accept that long-term control of Gaza would be a disaster for Israel and needs to go along with the Biden - Saudi Arabia recipe of unified PA governance in Gaza and the West Bank

Netanyahu has to go. If only Schumer could call for an election in Israel. Maybe the UK would like an election as long as he's handing them out too, I don't know.

Wait are we equating the website of a lobbying org with the BBC and the Guardian?

The BBC, the NYTimes, nor the Washington Post have a left-center bias. They are thoroughly, and utterly, center-right at best. They also are in no way equivalent to the Washington Institute, which is an explicitly pro-Israel and pro-Zionist think tank.

Taking issue with facts or statements or ideas is not the same saying we should be "excoriating" certain people ad hominem though. It seems like the paradox of tolerance.

Sorry, when people are shilling for fascist ideologies and US military hegemony, I tend to not really give a fuck whether I am giving them a fair shake because they're in the business of getting people killed.

actually, whom amongst us IS a trustworthy source of info, makes u think

Or really, to move the conversation away from the ethical to the logistical. If your goal was to eradicate Hamas, how would you go about it?

― anvil, Monday, March 18, 2024 9:39 PM bookmarkflaglink

I have absolutely no idea. I'd probably listen to people that know about the area and the culture and the history and try to understand what the obstacles are.

I think the uncomfortable issue this raises, and nobody seems to really want to discuss, is how this works where the US and other countries donate billions of dollars to UNRWA and the UN which are seen one side as perpetuating the generational refugee status of displaced Palestinian people - not just within Gaza but also in Lebanon and Syria and Jordan - and supporting a Hamas regime that teaches children that they will one day reclaim the land that is now Israel as their birthright. That doesn't seem realistic, any more than encouraging someone to violently resist a nuclear power like Pakistan. I don't know, is it? And also on the other side selling billions of dollars of weapons to Israel that are used to kill innocent people in Gaza, and which Hamas and Netanyahu are just ramping up for political reasons. It's horrific. Even if you want to discard this week's guest as a "shill" part of the point I'm listening to is what Palestinian-Arab residents in Jerusalem and Nazareth have said, what it's like for them.

I have listened to other voices that people think are more current or authentic and would listen to more. I don't speak Arabic or Hebrew, so I would rely on translation if they are not in English.

you are so profoundly disingenuous, it's really something to behold

literally none of your posting is in remotely good faith

Let's not pls

whatever felicity has been telling you offboard, I suggest you ignore it

treating "the extermination of Hamas" as a serious topic of discussion is beyond the pale, but we can thank reliable concern trolls anvil and felicity for that

She's been telling me nothing, I'm just not a fan of antagonising for antagonising sake. It's clear she is outnumbered here, no need to keep punching

Ben-Dror Yemini OTM

treating "the extermination of Hamas" as a serious topic of discussion

you put quotation marks around a misquotation and while the alteration you made may seem small to you, the different connotations of "eradication" and "extermination" are significant enough to change the meaning.

Even if you want to discard this week's guest as a "shill"

I haven't discarded the guest as a shill. I listened to the full episode posted and addressed it accordingly. I don't disagree with the gist of what he is saying, that Hamas is a net negative. But what I'm not seeing is any kind of indication that Israel's current plan is a good one or likely to have any kind of success (or even really that there is a long term plan). Attacking civilians has just never really worked, its generally better to for people to have alternatives to joining things like Hamas, and destroying everything just removes a lot of alternatives that people might have

I can sit here and say, well I'd never join Hamas, I'd prefer to work in a local bakery instead. But if the bakery has gone, then Hamas starts to look a better bet, not just from an emotional point of view because I'm annoyed about the bakery, but also objectively. Unemployment is high, Hamas is telling me "hey Israel bombed that bakery you're ok with that?"

Even here in the west if it turned out there were some bad guys in my apartment block, I'm more than happy for the police to come and arrest them and take them away, of course. But if they just started opening fire on the building, I wouldn't be ok with that - even if they gave me notice of when it would be so I could leave and come back later. Sure the bad guys are gone, but the price would be too high for me, I would be blaming the police more than the bad guys . Thats something for the most part we wouldn't accept, it makes no sense

btw that shill comment wasn't addressed to you. In the first of the two episodes (maybe you only listened to the second) he talked about the fact that he doesn't agree in any way in the way in which the IDF is prosecuting this conflict. I don't think that's a point of difference with the bakery example you just gave.

People have been saying in this thread from the beginning (and there is obviously tons of disagreement within Israel, so their individual views shouldn't be treated as a monolith) that Israel doesn't have a good plan, or any plan at all. And I don't think this guest had disagreed with the idea that Israel is handling this poorly. Maybe there's some confusion with other posts sort of attributing positions to that guest.

I think what he was talking about with a political off-ramps for Hamas and reform of UNRWA mentioned upthread is consistent with alternative jobs or future similar to what you are saying. If there is no alternative and there is a blockade why wouldn't you get a job with UNRWA or Hamas.

I do get why people would misconstrue the topic of whether replacing Hamas is desirable or off-topic to bring up in a discussion. Hamas is nominally the current government of Gaza. If there is no government at all, the responsibility of the welfare of the people falls to the occupying force aiui. With no government at all, you get complete lawlessness and imminent starvation and lack of medical care like what's going on Port-au-Prince. If you criticize Hamas it could sound to some people like support for Israel's current government. I think the idea of trying not to reduce the discussion to a binary could be useful, though I understand it goes against the grain of what people are used to.

I think you've highlighted the difference between a military question and a political question. Removing Hamas by military means leads to a vacuum, the kind of vacuum in which an organisation similar to Hamas might emerge from. But removing by political means doesn't lead to this, and a better term would be replace rather than remove

But this isn't something that can be imposed from outside, it can only be done by the people who live there. I think this is the problem with Israels lack of a plan, there's no focus on this at all.

Fwiw I don't disagree with your guy that Gaza would be better off without Hamas, which will be a large part of why Hamas decided against any subsequent elections or political means to remove them. I probably didn't disagree with much of what he said, and thats where his leverage probably is. It isn't where our leverage is though.

Exactly, the idea that the BBC has left-centre bias is laughable

Not necessarily disputing you here (though I think the BBC's bias is establishment or institutionalist more than anything), but what media outlets do you consider as left-centre?

My cousin thinks the BBC are far-left woke ideologues but he may be in a minority I find it difficult to tell

BBC news coverage is centre/lean right but like most broadcasters also lacks accuracy over the most basic party political shite; BBC arts and entertainment coverage leans left.

I'm assuming, unless I'm told differently, that the reason the BBC was mentioned at all was not about whether they had left or right bias but because of their attitude to Israel and the current conflict.

The initial steps of a real answer to "what is to be done about Hamas tho?!" are pretty clear if the question isn't concern trolling (which, when it comes from AIPAC-funded sources, it obviously is).

There's nothing you can do about Hamas while Israel is actively committing genocide or should Israel desist actively committing genocide if it continues to be the primary impediment to Palestinian statehood and autonomy (and oppress Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank, etc.). There are no answers about Hamas or The Palestinian Question that don't start with "Israel stops committing crimes against humanity." There is no imposition of secular liberal democracy while settlers and soldiers are killing children.

felicity, you might have missed this, but Israel is also starving Gaza and bombing the shit out of their hospitals, so famine and lack of adequate medical care are also happening there.

Lack of adequate medical care is putting it politely

I know

That and the fact that the situations in both Haiti and Palestine are primarily the result of colonialism and racism are utterly lost on mainstream news outlets.

utterly lost on mainstream news outlets

One of the aspects of a lot of chattering around the last 5 months seems to be that there’s a cohort of folks running into the hard wall of what those mainstream news outlets are actually _for_ and whom theyre talking to, which I would posit ain’t anybody of our political-economic status.

Also that the lack of legitimacy these media corps are suffering both is kinda intertwined with and reflects the lack legitimacy that the current ruling establish has.

About the only credible reporting I've seen in recent years was this long NYT piece about France keeping Haiti in peonage for two centuries.

That series was good, Alfred, but the issue is that their reporting from Haiti that isn’t “historical”— that is, current reporting— doesn’t take into consideration many of the elements that series you mention brings to the fore. It’s just a usual sort of western “why are these countries so violent and dysfunctional?!!” handwringing. It is infuriating, to say the least.

Also, kingfish, yes— I am glad the veil is being lifted, but am also concerned about how basic reporting will take shape as the century marches forward as these legacy news organizations are seen as the ruling-class owned consent- manufacturers that they are.

Israeli relative shared this, hopefully it is being heard more widely. She is center left and anti Bibi but I would not call her a leftist. Auto-Translated so a couple of phrases are unclear.

Elections now

Yesterday Canada issued Israel a proxy warning from the United States. "If you don't change direction immediately - we'll stop selling you weapons." Actually, *The United States has already reduced to a minimum the supply of weapons to Israel and that's a security disaster! *

So why is this happening?
Every day, all over the world, we see that the israel state is starving the Gazans. Yesterday an IPC report was published stating that 667,000 people in Gaza are in a catastrophic diet (the most severe there is). In a month the number will exceed 1,000,000 people. *The hunger in Gaza today is the worst hunger in the world!! * We the Israelis, descendants of the Holocaust generation, foolishly created the worst famine in the world, and we think democratic countries will keep selling us weapons??
https://t.ly/PbXwj

*If hunger helped us fight, maybe this would have been an excuse. If the hunger would help us return the kidnapped, then of course it is a reasonable tool, but in fact the war ended a long time ago! We are carrying out targeted raids and exterminations in Gaza just like Judea and Samaria, and we will continue to do it for months, maybe for years. You can close your eyes, but there are 2 million people in Gaza who need to eat today, and tomorrow, and every day for the coming years. And this is also our problem and this problem will not go away!
https://t.ly/aYqnb

*The government of destruction makes israel the worst countries in the world. They bring political isolation and sanctions on us. They turn us from victims of terror into human beings, and all the Israelis sitting at home and not fighting in the government of destruction, they are partners in crime and will carry the Cain moral sign forever. *

The government of the United States and all the democracies in the world are doing everything to help us save ourselves, but the responsibility will always be on us - we must get out of the house and destroy the government of destruction!

*elections right now! - Add friends, join! Share with all your might! * ->>>
http://tiny.cc/amidror”

thanks for sharing

This piece of paper was hung today on the aid distribution center in North Gaza, it says:

"The aid delivery was canceled because the aid didn't reach and the organizers were killed" https://t.co/m4G1x5metj pic.twitter.com/JQmASOlbxd

— Mariam from Gaza 🇵🇸 (@KufiyyaPS) March 20, 2024

glad monstrous loon Daniella Weiss is getting more scrutiny

https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/20/middleeast/israel-gaza-settlers-daniella-weiss/index.html

“Register, register. You’ll be in Gaza,” Weiss said with an intense gaze, the 78-year-old telling her audience she is absolutely convinced it will happen in her lifetime.

Any such land grab from the Palestinians would be illegal under international law, impractical and likely to engender global outrage against Israel.

you can kill all the people who live there, but formally *annexing* the empty ruins would likely engender global outrage

Breaking: Smoke rises from Al-Shifa Medical Complex in Gaza City after Israeli army forces detonated the specialized surgery building. pic.twitter.com/XlUrLFn3AF

— Ramy Abdu| رامي عبده (@RamAbdu) March 21, 2024

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/20/world-bank-report-finds-imminent-risk-of-catastrophic-famine-in-gaza-strip

Half the population of the Gaza Strip is at imminent risk of famine as food shortages approach catastrophic levels for more than a million people, the World Bank has warned.

Almost six months after the war between Israel and Hamas began, the Washington-based Bank said urgent action was needed to prevent widespread deaths from starvation within the next two months.

The new data from the Bank came as the UN secretary general, António Guterres, called on Israel to give immediate and unconditional access to Gaza for aid via land.

“I call on the Israeli authorities to ensure complete and unfettered access for humanitarian routes throughout Gaza,” he said before a meeting with the European Commission’s president in Brussels.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/21/we-are-about-to-witness-the-most-intense-famine-since-world-war-ii-in-gaza

The Integrated Phase Classification (IPC) system, set up 20 years ago, provides the most authoritative assessments of humanitarian crises. Its figures for Gaza are the worst ever by any metric. It estimates that 677,000 people, or 32% of all Gazans, are in “catastrophic” conditions today and a further 41% are in “emergency” conditions. It expects fully half of Gazans, more than 1 million people, to be in “catastrophe” or “famine” within weeks.

Funny how destroying all those hospitals, schools, aid convoys, food stockpiles, are all critical to defeating Hamas.

hospitals are Hamas now.

It’s mad to remember the start of the conflict and the week of fraught argument about whether a hospital had been targeted, and how quickly (like within a couple of weeks and ever since) the discourse shifted to “actually hospitals are the enemy and it’s good to target them”

Quite incredible, guess there is nothing left to say beyond executions in hospitals and drones blowing up civilians.

I know that I am not interested in media bias.

This is pretty good.

Worth discussing more, if you don't mind though I'll move it to the "as it relates to other countries" thread, Alfred

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/podcasts/2024-02-28/ty-article-podcast/netanyahus-overconfidence-and-arrogance-led-to-oct-7-former-pm-olmert/0000018d-f07b-dd8a-a5af-f87ffc090000

I've started listening to the Haaretz podcast. Former PM Olmert's description of the far right agenda is pretty nightmarish and should give everyone serious pause, even a lot of the people who consider themselves "pro-Israel." I knew some of this already but it was admittedly hard to maintain focus on it in light of atrocities in Gaza. I think a lot of people who think of themselves as relatively more liberal or centrist but "pro-Israel are able to compartmentalize people like Smotrich and Ben Gvir as "extremists" and "not the mainstream." And that's half true, but Israel's parliamentary form of government combined with the cynicism of Bibi and the relative apathy or distraction of a lot of people to the left of Bibi mean that Smotrich and Ben Gvir have been able to leverage their minority support into disproportionate power.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GJXhBsQWgAErIWu.png:small

A video on the Israeli nationalists— Zionist fascists, in less polite but more accurate terms— who are blocking aid into Gaza.

Journalist Jeremy Loffredo goes inside the grassroots Israeli campaign to block desperately needed aid to the besieged Gaza Strip and elicits the shockingly candid views of the Jewish Israeli nationalists manning the barricades.

Setting out on a bus caravan through illegal Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank, Loffredo arrives at the Kerem Shalom crossing to Gaza, filming Israeli citizens as they physically block trucks loaded with flour and other essential goods. There, a reservist who served in the military assault on Gaza confesses to an array of war crimes, including blowing up the offices of UN centers dedicated to providing food to the local population.

Loffredo then joins nationalists on a march toward Gaza, where they hope to establish new settlements after the population is violently driven out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqRzfb2oMaM

It seems hyperbolic to call those small protests a "blockade." Israeli police have not allowed them to actually prevent aid from going in through the crossing. GrayZone tends to be deliberately inflammatory and unreliable - they are the main promoter of the debunked theory that it was actually the Israeli military who killed most of the October 7 victims.

But we're supposed to take Haaretz podcasts at their word, got it.

I mean, yeah, Blumenthal is a nut, but it's not like the Times or WaPo or any other warcriming newspaper in the US is going to do good reporting on this topic, and Israeli sources can't be trusted either.

So who is blocking aid from going in? If it isn't these settlers, then it's...the Israeli military?

Sorry if that was a little harsh, man alive.

I think that part of it is that I am honestly struggling with how to find reliable, good information about what is happening in Gaza right now. What I see from Palestinian accounts, and what I hear from left-leaning media, is that the Israeli state and settlers (as in the video above) are preventing a lot of food aid from getting through. What I read of more center and right media seems to blame Hamas for the starvation crisis, dismiss it entirely, or cheer it on.

One of the things that has been most frustrating about this as it's gone on is that there is simply not a good way of knowing exactly what is happening, except that the asymmetrical nature of the situation is obvious, blatant, and not being addressed by the US in a way that is substantive. Hell, the US Congress just passed a bill that banned funding to the UNRWA, provides Israel with another 3.8 billion in funding, and limits aid to the Palestinian Authority if "the Palestinians" initiate or support an International Criminal Court investigation against Israel "for alleged crimes against Palestinians."

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that the moral failings in this situation seem clear to me, on all sides— but finding out accurate and detailed information about what is happening on the ground is so tainted by bias and rhetoric that I find it hard to trust *any* news source entirely.