Israel/Palestine post 10/7 - follow-on events/thoughts as relate to other countries

ah gotcha, nm

Starvation as a function of siege warfare (ie Leningrad) or total war (all the way back to the chevauchees of late medieval warfare) merits a pretty strong distinction from starving a captive national population (which is, uh, genocide).

Milo otm. Also comparing and contrasting civilian murder, genocide, mass-starvation, mass-infrastructural elimination…. I don’t want to live in a world where we have to rank these “oh well see it was different and slightly better in Vietnam but slightly worse in Syria”. None of these things need and defence as being “not as bad” or “different” from that other time it happened. Absolutely ghastly way to approach war

Maybe I’m too hot headed about this, but I really don’t see an analytical distance as being helpful in approaching what is happening in Gaza right now. I don’t want to objectify the suffering, I don’t want it to be a moral math equation in my head and I don’t want it to be so for people in the world.

I've lost count of the number of Israeli spokespeople and supporters of Israel who have brought up the flattening of Dresden by the Allies in WW2. I'm not entirely sure what the reasoning behind this particular bit of whataboutery is beyond "Well, no-one complained about that". Except they did even at the time and it's pretty much considered a war crime now. At least they haven't brought up Hiroshima... yet

Well yeah, but he said "these other situations," and the other situation I had just mentioned was Syria

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, March 21, 2024 5:52 PM (yesterday)

If you're going to quote me directly, could you at least include that I said "*some of* these other situations"? But ok, fair point about the post sequencing — while I wasn't responding directly to you, I can see why you thought I was overlooking your example.

Anyway, I don't even disagree with you here man alive, afaict. That Amnesty International wrote a report on Syria's use of starvation as a weapon indicates to me that doing so is *egregious* i.e., not a "normal" military practice (as horrific as those can be ofc) but a deliberate atrocity that cannot possibly be justified.

H.P.: I don't think I get what you're saying. You otm'd milo for pointing out there is a distinction between war-related starvation and genocide, but you also don't see the need for "analytical distance" — how do you draw such a distinction without analysis and comparison? Is your objection because the genocide in Gaza is ongoing rather than in the past? I don't really see anyone ranking anything, just trying to make sense of what's happening by situating it historically, as in milo's post.

Sorry, you are right, I wasn't very clear. You got the gist of it, and directly hit my hypocrisy in otm'ing Milo and then making that complaint.

https://archive.is/2XCWL

Non-paywalled version of the piece Alfred posted to the other thread that I thought made more sense to discuss here (Beinart on the "rupture" in American Judaism over Israel).

It makes more sense here. Thanks.

The Haaretz podcast had two guests relevant to this topic recently: Franklin Foer and Tony Kushner
https://www.haaretz.com/ty-WRITER/0000017f-da28-d249-ab7f-fbe8df7b0000

I listened to both, and Tony Kushner's politics on Israel seem to align pretty closely with mine. Foer's views on antisemitism in America still seem slightly hyperbolic to me - I think he is sincere, but I think he is viewing things as worse than they are. I do think there is a lot of unresolved tension in the relationship between American Jews, Israel, zionism, anti-zionism, and antisemitism, and there isn't really an easy formula for addressing it.

Thanks for posting both of those. The idea that there can't be a formula is hard to accept, as Foer described on the Hararetz podcast that Jewishness itself is hard to define as it not a race, nationality, religion or ethicity - it is a "people." And this frustrates the world and breaks the world's brain (as it has for millenia) when trying to even describe and understand the situation, often leading to anger, misunderstandings, accusations and hurt feelings.

Foer's personal anecdotes mentioned that he was dismayed at teachers in the US trying to simplify the I/P situation into "good" and "bad" and placing the Jewish 80% of Israel in the "bad," so children in America are looking around and seeing their Jewish classmates (who have nothing to do with Israel, let alone influence on what the Knesset or IDF do) as the closest "Jewish" person and thinking that child is "bad" - and leading to bullying and violence. Maybe that's the part you think is hyperbolic. I think he said that's scariest thing he's seen -- to be clear, in America, not in the world. I took it to mean it's scary in his lifetime in the context of America where, to be fair, half of the remaining Jewish people in the world currently live.

Read the Beinart article just now. It is a good look at where things stand at present, and I think asks some difficult questions of American Jews who identify as Zionists— namely, why break bread with fascists, white supremacists, and virulent anti-semites?

I think the problem in discussing your definition of "Zionism" is that last we checked you were what symsymsym described as an "anti-Zionist Zionist," meaning, you want a safe place for Jewish people to live, yet you also want to dismantle Israel as it is currently constituted.

And I don't mean that negatively, I was going to comment that Beinhart's profuse usage of "Zionism" is confusing to me, as Israel already exists, so I wouldn't know exactly what sense he is using it in.

I thought there was a commonly agreed upon definition of Zionism?

I thought we discussed this extensively in the antisemitism thread. What is it?

there are a lot of zionisms but he seems to be using it to mean support for a state of israel that depends on the subjugation (or worse) of palestinians which seems to be the closest thing to a mutually understood definition these days although supporters of the genocide wouldn't phrase it like that

if there are other better zionisms they are currently either too marginal or too hypothetical to be relevant to his point

otm

yep

Ok fair enough in this context.

I told my wife recently that I feel like a lot of American Jews (and even a fair number of Israelis) have an Israel of the Mind that is fairly different than the Israel that exists, and they don't realize how much bigger the chasm has become in recent years. I guess tbf you could say the same of Americans about America when it comes to our foreign policy, it's just that American foreign policy feels a lot more remote from every day American life.

I'm not one of those people who thinks the death of liberal zionism is/was inevitable - although it is pretty clearly dead now, or at least in a coma. Yes it's full of seemingly impossible contradictions, but life is full of situations that are marked by impossible contradictions and yet manage to survive and navigate those contradictions, in fact I don't think there are nation states on earth that aren't constantly bumping up against contradictions. Clearly liberal zionism is not one of those things right now, but I think it came closer to being able to in the 90s than a lot of the left gives credit.

there is still a pretty strong liberal american nationalist tradition even if it has passed its peak and was always full of irreconcilable contradictions (and it might even end up breaking with and surviving liberal zionism - I assume it depends what happens with the democratic party in the medium term). the reactionary right in israel seems to want to make even a superficially progressive israel almost impossible to imagine and everyone I know who believed such a thing could exist feels compelled to move rapidly either left or right in recent months with painful personal consequences esp if they're jewish (presumably if they're palestinian but sadly I don't know anyone). you would have thought that this could have been avoided or at least postponed with a less openly racist state and less inflexible institutions in support overseas but that hasn't happened and they're doubling down so hard - do they even care that they're losing a couple of generations of supporters? do they know it's too late to win them back so they feel they have nothing to lose? do they think it's good or necessary to separate the ideological wheat from the chaff regardless of the fallout?

While the president has been ousted for not being fascist enough for Elise Stefanik, a UPenn-Wharton stats professor has been accusing the Gaza Health Ministry of lies in the service of Israeli propaganda.

Wyner article here:
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers

Mathematical rebuttal here:
https://liorpachter.wordpress.com/2024/03/08/a-note-on-how-the-gaza-ministry-of-health-fakes-casualty-numbers/

ThreadReader app explainer here:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1770226449116430688.html

So it's apparently wrong and bad on to advocate for Palestinian liberation on university campuses because it could make Jewish students feel "uncomfortable," but tenured profs can spread lies and hasbara-inflected articles like the one above without any institutional pushback. Infuriating.

my son's high school is currently being sued by a group of Jewish parents. There was one (maybe two) accusations of kids being subjects of bigoted attacks (not by teachers), but most of this stuff is frankly absurd and anti-historical. The curriculum being discussed got broken down in this article and it's the most even-handed thing I can conceive of.

https://www.berkeleyside.org/2024/03/21/berkeley-unified-israel-palestine-curriculum-debate

In the meantime, a smattering of teachers have left, or have announced they are leaving over this entire thing. Way to go, stupid school district!

(more backstory: https://www.berkeleyside.org/2024/03/08/berkeley-unified-federal-civil-rights-complaint-antisemitism)

More on the man who has done a great deal to conflate anti-Zionism and antisemitism:
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/24/us/politics/kenneth-marcus-college-antisemitism-complaints.html

(His org is the one leading the obviously inflated and outrageous complaints against your son's high school)

yeah this being a central stupid nugget: "An introductory slide tells students: “We cannot have hate speech on our campus.” Hate speech, the slide says, includes Holocaust jokes and terrorist jokes, while the slide describes calling Israel an apartheid state, saying “Free Palestine” or using the term “genocide” is free speech. (The Jewish Community Resource Center of the Bay Area includes terms like these in a list of “problematic rhetoric” that contains “harmful subtext” that can be used to “harass and attack Jews.”)"

jewish parents in this case sounding increasingly like anti-CRT parents in the south mad that their white children feel uncomfortable when slavery is being taught.

anyway my son is about to graduate, thank god, and go to UC Santa Cruz

Nice. Have often wished that I could have been born a Californian so I could have gone there.

(Not that I regret my college years, but I probably would have found out a lot more about myself in the woods of Santa Cruz than the cornfields of Ohio)

I stayed a couple days in a house in Santa Cruz that had 12 people living there, mostly young UCSC graduates, and it felt like being in another world.

I agree that a couple of those slides seem inaccurate and mildly problematic, but hardly worthy of a lawsuit, and I doubt that they make anyone unsafe.

FWIW, it's a small thing but we decided to indefinitely postpone any future travel to Israel, including for my daughter's bat mitzvah (if anything, especially for that, as I don't want her to think of Israel's current regime as somehow being an essential part of Jewishness). Things are already a bit strained with H's extended family, and this means not seeing them, but tbh there has always been this grudging attitude among them toward H and her immediately family as the ones who left. I'm going to start looking into boycotting at least some types of Israeli or Israel-related businesses - whichever are most directly associated/implicated and would have the most impact.

That’s not a small thing! Big big love to you

Yes, those must be difficult steps to take, man alive. It speaks to your empathy and integrity. <3

(Not that I regret my college years, but I probably would have found out a lot more about myself in the woods of Santa Cruz than the cornfields of Ohio)

It's all a little 20/20, anyway. I just don't think my alma mater was the best environment for me, in retrospect.

You would have likely been the smartest kid in every class and made friends with the crusties who hang downtown imo

I wish Havana Syndrome was real

A major military ground operation in Rafah risks killing more civilians. It risks wreaking greater havoc with the provision of humanitarian assistance. It risks further isolating Israel around the world and jeopardizing its long term security and standing. pic.twitter.com/bYfTqJMUCv

— Department of State (@StateDept) March 23, 2024

So it's apparently wrong and bad on to advocate for Palestinian liberation on university campuses because it could make Jewish students feel "uncomfortable," but tenured profs can spread lies and hasbara-inflected articles like the one above without any institutional pushback. Infuriating

CitationsNeeded did an ep about this, with audio and transcript here

https://citationsneeded.medium.com/episode-199-the-golden-age-of-crybullyism-a0c28690a1b3

I told my wife recently that I feel like a lot of American Jews (and even a fair number of Israelis) have an Israel of the Mind that is fairly different than the Israel that exists, and they don't realize how much bigger the chasm has become in recent years. I guess tbf you could say the same of Americans about America when it comes to our foreign policy, it's just that American foreign policy feels a lot more remote from every day American life.

Seriously! This also accounts for the differences in age and media consumption habits, which is one of the reasons you get younger folks(“younger” here being decades younger than the mean age of your cable news consumer) with sharply different support levels than older folks

thanks for that rec, Kingfish

seeing a lot of 'stab in the back' discourse re: the USA's abstention at the UN

interesting phrasing

Exclusive: the German bank account of Jüdische Stimme / Jewish Voice has been blocked by their bank, who has demanded a full list of members and their addresses. The group sees a worrying echo of history. pic.twitter.com/W09DP3oz98

— James Jackson (@derJamesJackson) March 27, 2024

Ah Gallup has a poll fully conducted after the aid convoy disaster, now clear majority disapproval of military action in Gaza. Disapproval holds true whether you’re following closely or not, only Republicans hold out while super majorities of indies and dems disapprove. pic.twitter.com/rZ3443VG5G

— tyson brody (@tysonbrody) March 27, 2024

Hi David, do you know if any of the people treated in this hospital were injured by UK-made military equipment?

For example, were any of them injured by an airstrike from an Israeli F-35 fighter jet, which are partially made in the UK and carry out strikes in Gaza? 1/2 https://t.co/PtQLSUGVH3

— Zarah Sultana MP (@zarahsultana) March 27, 2024

An event with Palestinian writers was cancelled. This letter gives a summary.

https://commapress.co.uk/blog/comma-press-statement-in-relation-to-cancellation-of-home-event-and-baseless-allegations

insane story. the European Broadcasting Union and the Charity Commission are all trying to shut down the Rio cinema in Dalston because it cancelled a planned Eurovision party. https://t.co/mKGX2oYmTp

— bat020 (@bat020) March 30, 2024