Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

xp to table - This is why I put trustworthy in quotes - to bracket the ideal of trustworthiness. I purposefully chose the NYTimes - currently embroiled in a major controversy about the accuracy of its reporting on this topic (and echoing previous controveries e.g. Judith Miller's reporting ahead of the Iraq war). Despite this, I think it would be unreasonable to say that the NYTimes is simply a catalogues of lies - it obviously does contain factual reporting and adheres (except when it doesn't) to process of verification and deduction. On that basis, how do you proceed? This is what I wanted to consider. I think its daily challenge for all of us.

I cited Felicity upthread because I agreed with the sentiment she expressed and found the way she expressed it convincing. I have had many disagreements with Felicity on the topic of Israel/Palestine, on this and other threads. My citation of the sentiment she expressed is not intended as a broader judgement of one or multiple posters itt. That is, I did not intend my post as an implicit disagreement or dismissal of other posters - merely a suggestion for how the question of 'trustworthiness' could be reframed.

Agree with anvil's more succinctly phrased argument.

I mean, I read the Times every day— I luckily don’t have to pay for it, because of institutional access. I skim other papers, and I look at the locals. Al-Jazeera English, Middle East Eye, and Electronic Intifada— all are part of my pretty regular diet.

At a certain point, the Times is enough bullshit and ruling class gaslighting to get me through.

I talk about this stuff pretty often, and have been railing against the Times since I was a teenager getting in screaming matches with my dad after 9/11.

I understand your point— I just think that the terms that we’re using need to be reassessed, because part of the issue that we’re dealing with here is that there are no trustworthy sources of information , a situation that is partly the fault of major news outlets playing the role that Chomsky and etc diagnose.

In any case: https://newyorkwarcrimes.com/

plax and anvil, point taken. I simply think that my personal assessment of the Times is much more dim than yours, but I still read it every day because I need to know how events are being framed by the “paper of record.” In that sense, I totally agree that it is important to read untrustworthy sources with a critical eye, and I am glad that I do so… tho my blood pressure might not agree

plax and anvil, point taken. I simply think that my personal assessment of the Times is much more dim than yours

I don't really have an assessment of it, I'm not sure if I've ever read it, its paywalled I think?

My two cents is that that critical reading is not something we can easily do alone, and that this critical task has to be a collective one. I think there's a germ of something very optimistic an enabling there but I would struggle to articulate this point well.

i doubt that your view of the times could be much dimmer than mine - i do tend to think of it as a catalogue of lies!

I agree, plax, but again, the issue becomes the fact that people approach critical reading with their own biases and experiences, so that part of what critical reading is about is also about critically assessing the self. This kind of self-reflective thinking is difficult to do, and even more difficult to convince others to engage with, at least from my experience. I admit that I also steer away from it, but can honestly say that I have some insight into why and how I feel about the situation in Israel-Palestine, and part of that is about what I would call a desire for liberation and truth, and part of it is related to deep psychological issues which I don’t need to go into here. Others bring their own issues, both personal and political, to their reading.

A lot of this stuff about bias is telling me you find it v hard to navigate the noise. It's OK because there is a lot of it out there, and that won't go away. These are the times we live in.

All writers, fact checkers, editors, readers have a bias. And we are all readers.

I'd rather find people on twitter who don't pretend to have a bias and are coming to whatever position openly, and they can analyse the events from that standpoint. The analyse bit is key.

The Guardian try to pretend they are coming at things as witnesses when they are clearly not. And I only read that stuff because random users on twitter are actually doing the fact-checking and pointing out the bias in the reporting.

And when I put what I do out in here there of course shouldn't be much doubt as to my positions, as I have little doubt on where most people here stand. Ofc we should be fact checking one another and where we are coming from, too.

This is a part of processing these atrocities. And as plax says, trying to be a witness to what is happening.

xyzzz, I don’t really have much trouble navigating the noise

Like, I know where I stand, I just find it endlessly frustrating that there aren’t many outlets that reflect that stance without, let’s say, being obvious propaganda arms of a repressive government

These are all general comments on the discussion.

I don't really have an assessment of it, I'm not sure if I've ever read it, its paywalled I think?

― anvil, Tuesday, March 26, 2024 6:07 AM (twelve hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

at the risk of further perpetuating this trademark ILX off topic digression, are you really saying that you're not sure if you've ever read the New York Times?

Its one of the paywalled sites so I'll only have read something if it was pasted or a login wasn't required to read when it was linked from elsewhere. But also if I read something on a site linked to from twitter or elsewhere I wouldn't necessarily remember what site it was on afterwards

an online subscription to the NYT it costs a dollar a week

It's not that weird to not read the NYT if you're not in the US.

It's more weird to read it in fact.

Right, of course, but then there are a ton of other online subscription sources that also cost a small amount per week. Ideally I'd be looking to reduce my subscription exposure not increase it, especially when i) free sources are taken into account, ii) its less than positive reputation, iii) I don't have time to read all that much. iv) I prefer to listen to things rather than read as it can be done while walking running or on the bus

I'm also relatively anti-subscription as a consumer. Side point here but I think its one of the reasons people feel poorer, these's 1s and 5s and 15s dotted around over the place add up

In a week, Israeli army executes 13 children in and near Al-Shifa Hospital https://t.co/CBSF80mj1K

— Euro-Med Monitor (@EuroMedHR) March 27, 2024

ok let's not post photos of dead kids please

Nice friends.

https://x.com/geertwilderspvv/status/1772315970540843042?s=20

xp sure ok

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/29/us-weapons-israel-gaza-war/

1800 more 2000 pound bombs
500 more 500 pounds bombs

Israel's Attorney General has said that not only does the Defense Ministry must start drafting Haredi Jews into the IDF, it must start doing it TOMORROW.

Public funds for yeshiva students already ceased three days ago. Looks like they are actually, finally gunning for this. pic.twitter.com/1X4NQ6zVoH

— Séamus Malekafzali (@Seamus_Malek) March 31, 2024

I realise it's an odd aspect to focus on first, and I'm sure it's been raised before, but is this going to result in the widespread shaving of the payot, the orthodox ringlets?

These images from al-shifa...

The more interesting aspect of the haredi draft is that it could end Bibi’s coalition. I don’t anything about the current AG but I have to wonder if it was a deliberate move.

Looks like the approved bombs are being put to use.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/01/israeli-airstrike-on-iranian-consulate-in-damascus-kills-irgc-commander

https://www.npr.org/2024/04/01/1242177519/world-central-kitchen-workers-deaths-gaza

José Andrés, the founder of the World Central Kitchen that feeds people in war and disaster zones, said Monday that his organization has lost "several" of its international volunteers in an Israeli airstrike in the Gaza Strip.

a whole six months between 'we would never bomb a hospital, that must have been a hamas misfire' and 'check it out -- we've created a new standard for urban warfare'

most of those 'several' are citizens of other nations. Hopeful the Australian death forces this government into some sort of meaningful action (sadly, doubtful)

WCK’s Chef Oli, Ahmed & Damian are on the roof of our Gaza kitchen where we’ve built part of our water treatment system. With this equipment we're able to produce all the clean water needed to prepare tens of thousands of meals daily for displaced Palestinians.#ChefsForThePeople pic.twitter.com/8e9l7tflAu

— World Central Kitchen (@WCKitchen) March 2, 2024

Just seen an IDF/gov propaganda ad in the Weather app I use >:[

Some really horrific details in this Haaretz article on the WCK bombing: https://archive.is/z3RU6

(I don't know how these archive sites work, but there are some grammatical errors there that may not be present in the paywalled, official version: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-02/ty-article/.premium/idf-bombed-wck-aid-convoy-3-times-targeting-armed-hamas-member-who-wasnt-there/0000018e-9e75-d764-adff-9eff29360000)

Hard to decide whether this was a catastrophic fuck-up or if this was the goal:

"On Tuesday morning, World Central Kitchen executives announced a temporary halt to its operations in Gaza, and that the ship that had departed to Gaza with aid shipments would return to Cyprus."

I guess we'll see whether killing citizens from US, UK, Canada, Australia, and Poland has any repercussions

Blinken, asked if US going to keep sending all the bombs Israel using to kill aid workers and civilians, does his best to make it sound like the US arms transfers to Israel are a constantly occuring natural phenomenon that goes on all the time

Israel had to do this. You can't just go around giving people clean water.

I guess we'll see whether killing citizens from US, UK, Canada, Australia, and Poland has any repercussions

I'll give you one guess.

yeah I'm not holding my breath

re: Blinken. Reading this, I was struck by the fact that the jets won't be delivered for at least 5 years, meaning that no matter what Israel does now or in the future, the US is going to arm them: https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/01/politics/biden-administration-f15-fighter-jets-israel

I'm not sure what technical poli-sci term should be applied to the Israeli regime, but another debate that now seems quaint is the "apartheid" one:

Number of Palestinians detained by Israel rises to 9,312

According to HaMoked, an Israeli rights group, the Israel Prisoner Service released its latest data on incarcerated Palestinians, which shows that 40 percent of those detained are being held in “administrative detention” without trial.

The organisation said the number of Palestinians incarcerated has more than doubled since October 7 but administrative detentions “were on the rise long before that date”.

The data does not include labourers from the Gaza Strip and others who were in Israel lawfully with permits on the eve of October 7, following which, “Israel cancelled all permits and has held these people, reportedly numbering over 4,000 as of late October 2023, in Anatot and Ofer military camps,” HaMoked said.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/4/2/israels-war-on-gaza-live-five-aid-workers-killed-after-delivering-food?update=2813209

Three Britons killed. Public and political reaction entirely dependent on what colour and religion they are, of course.

Even if they are white and blonde they are helping the wrong side.

People here would be more angry if Israel had bombed dogs.

There have been so many different atrocities over the months and it’s really hard to not fall into despair over it because there’s nothing I can do. But the aid workers, it just got to me. Knowing how deeply the Famine scarred Irish history for over a century and how callous the British were in denying us food, and seeing the faces of the workers and the image of the van struck from above. I would always read about it in school and ask the same question: “why?” but it wasn’t until I was older and could be told that the British government viewed starving the population as, variously, payment for our sins and as a means of ridding the land of the surplus. It happens always in almost every conflict, people die from lack of food and clean water and no medical care so much more than in bombardments. It really got to me. I wept for them and the people they were trying to help.

I can’t express how angry and helpless I feel.

It's somehow both numbing and wrenching at the same time

At a certain point, and this is a topic and coping mechanism that always fires off pushback, but one kinda has to cut off the spigot of news one consumes of the horrifying developments.

Like there’s no utility past a certain point of continually hearing further devastation if you’ve already reached a conclusion about the situation but are also aware that these are massively anti-democratic national mechanisms that none of us can do anything to actually change.

It fucking sucks, but the firehose of misery of news seems way too intense to not traumatize the fuck out of the heavy consumer of it. We’re seeing 19th Century-style genocidal shit to accompany the 19th Century notions of nationalism in play but with 21st Century weapons and media and none of that we are built for.

I don't consume it non-stop like a few people I know, but I think that continuing to dispatches from the area as well as opinion pieces is really important, at least for me.

I mean

Walking through the streets of Rafah, it is evident that my neighbors are suffering immensely.

Every conversation is a quiet cry for comfort, an attempt to hold onto pieces of our lives.

The Gaza Strip has never felt as cramped or unlivable as it does now. Streets here in Rafah – Gaza’s southernmost city – are filled with makeshift tents.

We constantly stumble over one another as we walk.

After approximately 180 days of war, people have become somewhat desensitized.

Death is a daily occurrence.

Families can be wiped out entirely – or almost entirely. Anyone who remains alive will have to search for a new place to live and keep on looking for food after burying their loved ones.

The death toll is so high that we have been numbed.

Tears have dried.

Instead, we exist in a perpetual state of survival. Every moment is consumed by the urgent need to persevere during the ceaseless onslaught.

Muhammad Qeshta was a distant relative of mine. He was a kind neighbor with five grandchildren.

For nearly a decade, he was a diligent employee of the UN agency for Palestine refugees (UNRWA).

He was working at an UNRWA warehouse – distributing aid – when it was attacked by Israel a few weeks ago.

Fragments from missiles pierced Muhammad’s left eye, right shoulder and chest.

Muhammad died from his injuries within a week of the attack.

Meanwhile, many are of trying to leave, as explained here.

This is a lie. There are Gazans evacuating and people have been mobilised at the border in Egypt enabling evacuations and supporting them when they come through. The passage used to cost hundred dollars but currently is between 5 and 10k $ https://t.co/5LhWs6Vk4V

— Layla (@LaylaInBristol) April 2, 2024

Kingfish, otm, unfortunately. It’s fucking awful.

I have been consuming less news lately in order to preserve my sanity but I feel that because there is also at the same time a firehouse of propaganda and misinformation that I need to keep up in order to combat ignorance (my own or others’).

It’s so ugly that the natural impulse in leaving Gaza also serves Israeli’s purpose of “thinning out the population”.

I don't really want to make things about me, but yeah this has definitely been affecting my mental health. I've ruminated on it daily for the past nearly six months. I read stuff, I listen to stuff. I do fairly little in comparison to how much I think. I feel (metaphorically) this mild nausea that's there all the time. Making matters worse, there is the frequent misinformation, the actual antisemitism, etc. and it can be easy to distract oneself with that stuff and not focus on the horrific bigger picture. There are a lot of hills I don't want to make my stand on, so to speak, even when I disagree with some of the things being said. All in the context of the feeling that I am both connected to and identified with Israel in ways I can't really escape, that make this very different for me from Syria or Sudan. And meanwhile seeing some people (although thankfully not that many) who I genuinely like or even love just unable or unwilling to cut through the fog they are in about the real situation in Gaza.

It is a persistently awful and gnawing feeling that something you grew up associating with liberation and empowerment of your own group is also oppressive and destructive to another group. I think this is the main reason a lot of Jews have a hard time facing the reality today.