Israel/Palestine post 10/7 - follow-on events/thoughts as relate to other countries

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The police responses are so over the top and obviously unnecessary I was wondering if any admin anywhere might get a clue and realize how fascist this makes them look (was just reading that my alma mater, Emory, sent in the state cops today)

rob, Thursday, 25 April 2024 19:36 (six months ago) link

not to mention that the movement is growing directly in response to the crackdowns, like duh??

rob, Thursday, 25 April 2024 19:37 (six months ago) link

There's protest going on right now where I am. A lot of cops are standing around but it doesn't feel like anything bad is going to go down.

Never fight uphill 'o me, boys! (President Keyes), Thursday, 25 April 2024 20:31 (six months ago) link

xp Old Lunch - that protest at Northwestern le to a real fucking moment of whiplash on my Twitter feed this morning. i saw a tweet from the city's police department pop up saying, "we are monitoring the situation at Northwestern this morning but are not directly involved, direct all questions to Northwestern". IMMEDIATELY below that tweet was a video of the chief of police standing in front of the tents telling the students they would be arrested if they didn't disperse.

lying pigs, all the time.

Maxmillion D. Boosted (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 25 April 2024 20:34 (six months ago) link

christ the CPD is shameless

apparently the cops at Emory used irritant gas, tasers, and rubber bullets (https://emorywheel.com/emory-community-ashamed-after-police-detain-students-at-pro-palestine-encampment/)

rob, Thursday, 25 April 2024 20:52 (six months ago) link

or I guess the Evanston PD

rob, Thursday, 25 April 2024 20:52 (six months ago) link

yeah, it was the Evanston PD in this case.

Maxmillion D. Boosted (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 25 April 2024 21:05 (six months ago) link

The Daily Northwestern has maintained a solid rolling activity log throughout the day: https://dailynorthwestern.com/2024/04/25/campus/live-pro-palestinian-student-activists-set-up-encampment-on-deering-meadow/

Great-Tasting Burger Perceptions (Old Lunch), Thursday, 25 April 2024 21:31 (six months ago) link

I’m wondering about the Soviet flags at my protest. Why?

Never fight uphill 'o me, boys! (President Keyes), Thursday, 25 April 2024 23:22 (six months ago) link

I’m going to chalk that up to the Party for Socialism & Liberation folks who have been at many of these

Glower, Disruption & Pies (kingfish), Thursday, 25 April 2024 23:41 (six months ago) link

the famous liberty afforded to people by the benevolent soviet union

I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Thursday, 25 April 2024 23:50 (six months ago) link

these are college students, of course they're gonna rock the hammer & sick

Andy the Grasshopper, Friday, 26 April 2024 00:04 (six months ago) link

It’s probably PSL or RevCom related.

butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Friday, 26 April 2024 02:44 (six months ago) link

I have to say: I am proud of the youth.

butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Friday, 26 April 2024 02:45 (six months ago) link

xp
if it was the word “interpellated”

bingo-- though i know the word. and like said, i expected that space would be typo and error free haha, so i knew i had take a note.

schrodingers cat was always cool (Hunt3r), Friday, 26 April 2024 02:55 (six months ago) link

had to

schrodingers cat was always cool (Hunt3r), Friday, 26 April 2024 02:55 (six months ago) link

traditionally students are the shock troops for social change, which can lead to much good, but they generally are better at than capsizing the boat full of oligarchs than at navigation.

more difficult than I look (Aimless), Friday, 26 April 2024 02:57 (six months ago) link

I’m wondering about the Soviet flags at my protest. Why?

― Never fight uphill 'o me, boys! (President Keyes), Thursday, 25 April 2024 bookmarkflaglink

Friend Infected With Left Wing Brain Worms - What to Do?

xyzzzz__, Friday, 26 April 2024 10:12 (six months ago) link

My ans: nothing. They are doing good

xyzzzz__, Friday, 26 April 2024 10:12 (six months ago) link

video of arrests at Emory:

https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2024/04/25/emory-university-pro-palestinian-protest-police-digvid.cnn

rob, Friday, 26 April 2024 12:23 (six months ago) link

the professor at the end of that video who the pigs throw on the ground for speaking to them has been charged with assaulting a police officer

rob, Friday, 26 April 2024 12:47 (six months ago) link

There’s an aspect to this that seems like inter-elite fight, where we’re watching a struggle between different class strata of faculty vs the administrators for control of the institution.

Glower, Disruption & Pies (kingfish), Friday, 26 April 2024 14:32 (six months ago) link

It’s probably PSL or RevCom related.


Maoism is trending among younger people… as is the belief that Stalin was a great man … for gen x leftists (and boomers), there is some serious wtf

sarahell, Friday, 26 April 2024 15:54 (six months ago) link

the professor at the end of that video who the pigs throw on the ground for speaking to them has been charged with assaulting a police officer

1. FTP
2. It’s baffling because it feels like Occupy was so recent but apparently authorities really do lack historical memory?

sarahell, Friday, 26 April 2024 15:56 (six months ago) link

Maybe more for the antisemitism thread, but I still think there is a certain grey area that we haven't really figured out how to address/deal with with the rhetoric around "zionism," because the term "zionism" is not well defined. At least pre and during WWII, Nazi meant something specific, a member or supporter of the Nazi party. It seems like "zionist" means anyone who hasn't come to the conclusion that Israel should not exist as a Jewish state in any sense. And I think that is dangerous in combination with a lot of the rhetoric I hear - that zionists should die, that zionists should be targeted by terrorist attacks, etc. And this is "not antisemitism" because you can separate Jews into the good kind (anti-zionist) and the bad kind (zionist).

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 26 April 2024 15:58 (six months ago) link

I don’t use the word because in my experience it was used by Turner Diaries types (i.e. Zionist Occupied Government)

Never fight uphill 'o me, boys! (President Keyes), Friday, 26 April 2024 16:05 (six months ago) link

also presumes that being a "zionist" is an immutable position that can't be changed via persuasion

the defenestration of prog (voodoo chili), Friday, 26 April 2024 16:24 (six months ago) link

Maoism is trending among younger people… as is the belief that Stalin was a great man … for gen x leftists (and boomers), there is some serious wtf
― sarahell, Friday, April 26, 2024 8:54 AM (thirty minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I am obviously not a Tankie, but especially for younger people, all that they have seen is radical reactionaries and fascist-adjacent ghouls impose their ideological viewpoints upon the populace with little impunity. The urge to replicate this kind of authoritarian bullshit from a leftist ideological view is understandable, if misguided and ahistorical.

butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Friday, 26 April 2024 16:31 (six months ago) link

I think it's often shallower than that. Mao and Stalin get reduced down to avatars for "people who successfully opposed capitalism" and I'm not sure they think much past that dubious point

rob, Friday, 26 April 2024 16:37 (six months ago) link

That said, I'm not seeing any pro-Mao or pro-Stalin sentiment among the young leftists of Montreal, and I wonder how concrete or significant this is. On the other hand, there is a legally legitimate communist party in Canada, so maybe it gets channelled into something slightly more defensible up here.

rob, Friday, 26 April 2024 16:38 (six months ago) link

Maybe more for the antisemitism thread, but I still think there is a certain grey area that we haven't really figured out how to address/deal with with the rhetoric around "zionism," because the term "zionism" is not well defined. At least pre and during WWII, Nazi meant something specific, a member or supporter of the Nazi party. It seems like "zionist" means anyone who hasn't come to the conclusion that Israel should not exist as a Jewish state in any sense. And I think that is dangerous in combination with a lot of the rhetoric I hear - that zionists should die, that zionists should be targeted by terrorist attacks, etc. And this is "not antisemitism" because you can separate Jews into the good kind (anti-zionist) and the bad kind (zionist).

The issue is that by tying Judaism to a project like Israel, there is a narrow set of paths by which one can oppose the state without opposing the religion, according to the logic set up by the state itself. I am opposed to the state of Israel, but I am not opposed to Judaism or Jewish people. This tethering of a state apparatus to a religious identity is dangerous in all of its iterations— the same problem exists with Islamic states, and in the US (among others) with Christianity, despite our supposed "melting pot" nature.

The issue then becomes: what is the aim of tying the state to a religion? Who and what does this tethering aim to protect and exclude? Why?

butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Friday, 26 April 2024 16:44 (six months ago) link

That said, I'm not seeing any pro-Mao or pro-Stalin sentiment among the young leftists of Montreal, and I wonder how concrete or significant this is.


I’ve never seen this in any observable way beyond people joking that Mao had a point about landlords; handwringing about this seems to be gullible at best.

Roman Anthony gets on his horse (gyac), Friday, 26 April 2024 17:02 (six months ago) link

xps having been in tankie adjacent spaces most of these people really do know nothing and seem to think the sino-soviet split never happened. they like to use symbols of state power to project a strength and unity that the left doesn't have and there's a huge archive of a century of marxist-leninist theory for them to draw from with prepackaged answers to every question. crappy anarchist zines and ultraleft treatises on value don't have the same appeal. it's like marx said "the tradition of dead [actually existing socialist states] weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living"

Left, Friday, 26 April 2024 17:08 (six months ago) link

there's a tendency to downplay this trend either because people don't come across it or because it's just embarrassing but it has been pretty damaging in the left even if most of the people involved aren't necessarily stalinists in a genuine sense

every socialist state is equivalent to them and anyone who has been hurt or whose family has been hurt by ostensibly socialist or just anti-imperialist regimes is chased out of a lot of left spaces if they talk about their experiences with a lot of racist assumptions projected onto them. it's really fucked up and white western leftists have done genuine harm to solidarity efforts between (for example) syrians and palestinians with their bullshit

Left, Friday, 26 April 2024 17:17 (six months ago) link

I am obviously not a Tankie

― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table)

????????????????????????

G. D’Arcy Cheesewright (silby), Friday, 26 April 2024 17:23 (six months ago) link

there's a tendency to downplay this trend either because people don't come across it or because it's just embarrassing but it has been pretty damaging in the left even if most of the people involved aren't necessarily stalinists in a genuine sense


I don’t and will never care or waste attention on shrieking about marginal views in the broader left, sorry if this offends

Roman Anthony gets on his horse (gyac), Friday, 26 April 2024 17:24 (six months ago) link

brave

Left, Friday, 26 April 2024 17:25 (six months ago) link

Nobody can prevent you from wasting your time indulging shit for brains liberal opinions and that’s fine!

Roman Anthony gets on his horse (gyac), Friday, 26 April 2024 17:29 (six months ago) link

I get my fill of those on here

I don't want to stray too far from the point but are the liberal opinions thinking stalin worship is bad or thinking it's consequential enough to be worth opposing? as far as the average bidenite is concerned I'm just a tankie anyway

Left, Friday, 26 April 2024 17:39 (six months ago) link

it depends who you know or where you are but I have run into enough queer marxist leninists who dominate certain spaces and profess to love everything they hate when a red flag is slapped on it and it's hard to leave that alone

Left, Friday, 26 April 2024 17:43 (six months ago) link

The issue is that by tying Judaism to a project like Israel, there is a narrow set of paths by which one can oppose the state without opposing the religion, according to the logic set up by the state itself. I am opposed to the state of Israel, but I am not opposed to Judaism or Jewish people. This tethering of a state apparatus to a religious identity is dangerous in all of its iterations— the same problem exists with Islamic states, and in the US (among others) with Christianity, despite our supposed "melting pot" nature.

The issue then becomes: what is the aim of tying the state to a religion? Who and what does this tethering aim to protect and exclude? Why?

― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Friday, April 26, 2024 11:44 AM (fifty-three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

But I have never seen protesters (other than perhaps right wingers) arguing that it is fundamentally an "evil ideology" for any of the dozens of states that are Islamic in an official capacity to be Islamic, including those funded and supported by the US. No one is protesting that Saudi Arabia or Egypt should be dismantled and turned into secular states.

Additionally, "Zionism" is often used to signify some broader evil, settler colonialism itself, rapacious financial capitalism, police brutality, etc. For example, the fact that the NYPD has done occasional "trainings" with the IDF has been used to suggest that "Zionism" is responsible for the NYPD's brutality, as though it hasn't always been that way.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 26 April 2024 17:49 (six months ago) link

Have you missed the many calls for Islamic states to become more secular over the years, by both official and unofficial campaigns?

What about the 4-5 million people killed as part of the west’s “war on terror,” which is a war on Islam?

You’ll notice that what leftists oppose is EMPIRE and the wanton destruction of people and culture that does not hew to Western Judeo-Christian “values.”

Training with the IDF and the increased militarization of police after 9/11 go hand in hand, and to be incredulous about this connection is wild to
me, and to claim that Zionism isn’t a settler colonial ideology is also wild.

butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Friday, 26 April 2024 18:00 (six months ago) link

tabes get the noxious trope "Judeo-Christian" out of your shitty mouth

G. D’Arcy Cheesewright (silby), Friday, 26 April 2024 18:04 (six months ago) link

just say "Christian" when that's what you fucking mean

G. D’Arcy Cheesewright (silby), Friday, 26 April 2024 18:04 (six months ago) link

fuck you

butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Friday, 26 April 2024 18:08 (six months ago) link

go fuck yourself

G. D’Arcy Cheesewright (silby), Friday, 26 April 2024 18:09 (six months ago) link

eat shit and die you bigoted pig

G. D’Arcy Cheesewright (silby), Friday, 26 April 2024 18:09 (six months ago) link

. The urge to replicate this kind of authoritarian bullshit from a leftist ideological view is understandable, if misguided and ahistorical.


Yeah I kinda lump them in with anti-vaxxers tbh …

sarahell, Friday, 26 April 2024 18:13 (six months ago) link



I don’t and will never care or waste attention on shrieking about marginal views in the broader left, sorry if this offends


Well then I am assuming you aren’t actually involved in organizing or activism because as Left and xyzzz have both pointed out… this is a problem/challenge when you are doing the work and trying to organize. Maybe I am wrong, and you have just somehow managed to avoid this cadre?

I spent several months dealing with factional conflict involving maoist-stalinists and a community center last fall.

sarahell, Friday, 26 April 2024 18:19 (six months ago) link

this is not good: "Student Leader of Columbia Protests: ‘Zionists Don’t Deserve to Live’
After video surfaced on social media, the student, Khymani James, said on Friday that his comments were wrong."

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/26/nyregion/columbia-student-protest-zionism.html?unlocked_article_code=1.nU0.2bCg.WdX-HYzAvSls&smid=url-share

I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Friday, 26 April 2024 18:22 (six months ago) link


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