Israel/Palestine post 10/7 - follow-on events/thoughts as relate to other countries

As man alive said, if you want any say in the matter of elections, it's just strategy and you vote accordingly. Milo, I don't believe it's about a moral imperative at all, unless you don't really care about the outcome but just your own voice

If you think it's important to vote in accordance with your strategy to achieve a desired outcome, that is a moral imperative!

Yes, but what is the strategy? "If Biden is no longer the president, then Biden will no longer be sending weapons and money to Israel"?

Or is it a longer-term strategy? "If Trump is re-elected to the presidency, the United States will collapse, and eventually be unable to continue sending weapons and money to Israel — victory!"

It's just framing the act in such a way that it's all positive (we beat Trump/the Republicans!) without sharing in any of the negative (they voted to criminalize criticism of Israel and actively aided genocide).

Do you ever get tired having this same argument? Do anyone’s opinions change as a result of it?

I'm voting for Biden to make sure what's going on doesn't happen.

— Sridhar Ramesh (@RadishHarmers) April 25, 2024

this is legit how all of you sound to me, fwiw

:)

cool, I'm voting for Biden to make sure what's going on doesn't get far worse

this is legit how all of you sound to me, fwiw

― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table),

has he been on SNL yet?

Sridhar? No, but he is fucking hilarious

its kind of a silly argument to me, yes Biden blowing this particular issue, but even if you're a one-issue voter I still think you would prefer what's going on now over the party who is currently writing bills to allow drivers to mow down protestors if they feel inconvenienced by them. even if they are somehow "equally bad" here there are dozens of other issues in which Biden is clearly better, including "should this country be a democracy or a monarchy"

OK if we're gonna have this argument on this thread too, I'll just say that my state just sued the Biden Dept. of Education over its new rule extending Title IX protection to transgender students. I have friends in this state with transgender kids. Obviously if Trump wins he will work ASAP to reverse that rule. Even if I couldn't list another 20 things like that easily — vs. literally nothing that would somehow get better under Trump — that would be enough for me. You don't care about my friends and their kids, fine. I do.

Guys, don't bother

okay, i didn’t mean to turn this into the US politics thread with an errant remark about this issue losing young voters, so maybe let’s get back on track

I mean, it's a follow-on event in another country...

Many people aren't deeply committed to the act of voting, period. Your worry shouldn't be 'single-issue voters,' it should be people who only turn out when they're hyped for one reason or another (still very important voters in a world where every national election is tight) while your guy is serving them up reasons to not be hyped. You can be mad at them for their apathy but that doesn't put votes in your column.

I just think that if we’re going to talk about this, we need to focus on how this specific issue and its related events might influence the election. I made a hyperbolic statement, but one which does have some truth behind it, and people took it as a cue to defend Biden and their decision to vote for him. That’s fine, but I am not so sure that has to do with the thread

I don't think you're wrong, I mean if Biden loses by a slim margin (which imo is the only way he could lose) it'll be pretty easy to argue that this was the tipping point. I really hope that's not the case though, it would be one of the worst own goals in the history of American politics. I mean its not like Israel wants Biden to win.

I still think Biden’s policy could wind up being instrumental to a ceasefire given a few more proxy trial balloons and some grindingly slow pressure on Bibi

Or possibly “hope” but yknow, thinking and hoping are about the same

Anyway I’m voting for him, best president of my lifetime as I keep saying

Almost anything can influence this election, because it's going to be close. Obviously nothing that makes any group of potential Democratic voters less likely to vote for Biden is good for Biden. All of that's true. Biden himself for totally selfish reasons if nothing else no doubt wishes none of this stuff was happening, or least that it wasn't happening right now. From a strictly political standpoint, there is no obvious way for him to handle this that doesn't imperil him with one important constituency or another. Whereas it's pretty much free territory for Trump, because the GOP is just lockstep kill-the-Arabs. Sucks to be Genocide Joe, whaddya gonna do.

You could stick it to AIPAC and J-Street and do what’s right in the name of humanity but

You think the overwhelmingly Dem-voting Jewish population is going to abandon Biden if he refuses to continue arming Israel? I doubt it. But he will lose (and has already lost) a ton of younger voters who won’t vote for the guy who enabling the slaughter that they see on their screens every day

(Not trying to take Jewish voters for granted, but just acknowledging historic precedent in that comment fwiw)

Some people are young and Jewish

I teach many of them, and they are all
pro-Palestine

(at least those whom I teach, that is)

I'm not debating the morality! He should absolutely stick it to AIPAC and confront the Israeli government, force a ceasefire and a two-state dialogue.

Just from a U.S. electoral impact standpoint — since that's what we're talking about — the effects of any decision are hard to predict because the margins are small. So, sure, there are enough young voters and Muslim voters to make a difference in this election. Unusually so, really. But there also remains the older and wealthier voters who always turn out, and if you somehow risk losing some numbers of those voters, that's potentially even worse. It's a bad political situation. And those tend to paralyze decision-makers whose primary goal is winning an election. And that's where we are.

It’s not great, but then again our “democracy” is full of shit so I don’t expect much. Wish this wasn’t the case

https://x.com/MavenNavarro1/status/1785785576571994299

Both sides now chanting “F***” Joe Biden” pic.twitter.com/Jbt7TU1b9b

— Maven Navarro (@MavenNavarro1) May 1, 2024

I thought the uncommitted thing in Michigan was really good. Voters signalling "we might vote, you didn't lose us yet but you don't have us either", is explicit in a way that voting for minor candidates or not voting at all isn't, where they get mixed in with votes who aren't attainable

I think Trump is going to loudly signal that he will be much worse which could bring a lot of those voters back in the end

I think what was good about the uncommitted approach is it sends a clear message of "We ARE your voters that you are at risk of losing" which is a political and strategic message, whereas "We are absolutely NOT your voters, never voting for you" is more of a moral or ethical message. But there aren't always such clear avenues available

Yeah the "uncommitted" movement was smart and I think effective to whatever degree it could be. It was a good way to throw rocks at the window, it got some attention.

And this is more than rocks at a window, it's inside the house.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/college-democrats-of-america-statement-biden-gaza-campus-protest_n_663278fce4b0849b2edded55

Now this is crazy. You never see this shit. They really fucked it https://t.co/V2VXQBrllS

— Sam Adler-Bell (@SamAdlerBell) May 2, 2024

this is legit how all of you sound to me, fwiw

― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Thursday, 2 May 2024 bookmarkflaglink

Avg ilxor age: 60

We’re worried about our Social Security

You think the overwhelmingly Dem-voting Jewish population is going to abandon Biden if he refuses to continue arming Israel?

A surprisingly large percentage would, yes.

Look what happened to the Labour Party in the UK after Ed Miliband (who is Jewish) criticized Israel's 2014 campaign in Gaza. Follow that up with Corbyn and I think at one point support for the Labour Party in the Jewish community was at 9% and the Tories 81%.

He made it Labour policy to recognise Palestine in 2014 and Maureen Lipman went apeshit.

And hasn't stopped going apeshit ever since.

A surprisingly large percentage would, yes.

I feel like there's a path of conditional support (you can do this but not that would thread an electoral needle, so to speak, but maybe not. Even if there isn't, it seems surprising they haven't at least looked for it

Missing closing bracket there, should be (you can do this but not that),

My comment not whether it should be done (obviously it should), but it is just as likely lead to MORE arms going to Israel under the next (Republican) administration.

*to* lead

more on the assault at UCLA, which was the culmination of several nights of harassment and abuse:

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-05-01/inside-ucla-pro-palestinian-encampment-on-night-of-violence

Soon after protesters, most of them students at the Westwood campus, pitched tents on Dickson Court on April 25, pro-Israel counterdemonstrators showed up with megaphones. Some shouted racist, homophobic and anti-Islamic slurs, according to campers interviewed.

They set up a giant video screen near the camp that played and replayed videos of Hamas militants. They broadcast a running torrent of loud, disturbing sounds over a stereo — an eagle screeching, a child crying — and blasted a Hebrew rendition of the song “Baby Shark” on repeat, late at night, so that campers could not sleep.

They returned night after night.

This article is tabloid-y trash, but I hope better reporting on how this group is organized comes out: https://www.thedailybeast.com/jessica-seinfeld-and-bill-ackman-fund-pro-israel-counterprotests-at-ucla