Anti-semitism thread: onwards from 2023

anvil: all the Israelis who live in the Occupied Territories have voting rights, just the Palestinians do not. This is part of why Israel is described as an apartheid state

(xp)

you might find this useful: https://www.972mag.com/gets-vote-israels-democracy-2019/

Pretty sure the Iraqis were not kicked out of their on what is now American territory

of their homes

this is probably not the right thread for this discussion but this is a good piece on the inaccess to democratic representation among Palestinians of East Jerusalem: https://www.jerusalemstory.com/en/article/who-represents-palestinians-jerusalem

Israel is a democracy, but so were apartheid South Africa and the US during Jim Crow. Also, the occupation is coming up on 60 years now. Military invasions don't usually last that long these days, but I'm sure once Israel accomplishes the objectives of the Six-Day War they'll be ending the occupation any minute now

The US invaded Afghanistan and Iraq but we didn't say it made the US less of a democracy. Any democracy in a country is surely always confined to its own borders and not to places it invades and occupies

That is a horrible example given that the US actually has colonies (and a mainland district!) without complete representation in the federal government and limited self-government. DC and Puerto Rico (among others) do make the US 'less of a democracy' than it could and should be.

the problem is considering democracy a binary state

I should clarify as it may not have come across properly but I'm opposed to both invasions and occupations, this isn't to defend Israel.

I understand about the settlers, we see a similar dynamic in Crimea too, but I think democratic rights are usually categorised about what is within a countries actual borders not when they're invading someone else's. The problem is the invading and the occupying, which is bad.

Lots of countries allow citizens living outside their borders to vote, but plenty don't allow that. We don't factor that into whether we consider a country democratic or not though

the problem is considering democracy a binary state

is this true? I think its fairly well established there are lots of what might be classified as hybrid regimes, Turkey, Hungary, possibly the US

Maybe the difference you’re not seeing is that Gaza is not just a country that Israel is occupying but the result of an ethnic cleansing

Like the Palestinians should be where Israel is

democracy feels like a red herring here since there are no real democracies at the level of the state at best there are more and less democratic tendencies. it's not binary but if we want to consider bourgeois democracies with partial voting rights for bourgeois parties democratic it doesn't mean very much

re: ethnic cleansing in christian europe it's still happening constantly both directly and as outsourced to africa, the middle east, the ocean...

also germany has no right to exist and should have been abolished long ago

I think democratic rights are usually categorised about what is within a countries actual borders not when they're invading someone else's

Israel's invasion of the West Bank took place in 1967, it's not an active proposition. And the question of what Israel's "actual borders" are is really what this all boils down to.

RIght, but lets say Israel called it quits tomorrow and decided no longer to occupy either the West Bank or Gaza, would you then consider Israel to be a democracy?

does it matter

Israel's invasion of the West Bank took place in 1967, it's not an active proposition.

This is a stronger point, but I'd still say ending the occupation should be a major goal here, but yes indefinite occupations without formal annexation complicates answer

Lots of countries allow citizens living outside their borders to vote, but plenty don't allow that.

Israel allows all its citizens living in the West Bank to vote, but not any citizens living abroad, or even visiting another country. There is no absentee voting (with an exception for active duty military).

Practically speaking the West Bank is considered part of Israel for its Jewish residents, but not for its Arab residents.

does it matter

I'm not sure. I think to an extent yes, I think ending the occupations are less ambiguous goals and more manageable goals and should be disentangled from the question of whether Israel should exist at all (which has lower levels of support)

Why is this conversation taking place itt?

RIght, but lets say Israel called it quits tomorrow and decided no longer to occupy either the West Bank or Gaza, would you then consider Israel to be a democracy?

Can't wait.

Yeah there are definitely other threads for this question

Why is this conversation taking place itt?

indeed

is this true? I think its fairly well established there are lots of what might be classified as hybrid regimes, Turkey, Hungary, possibly the US

― anvil

the interesting thing to me is that with the breakdown of federal authority, the US is more a set of _multiple different_ hybrid regimes, each with differing levels of democracy. while all democracies tend to rig the game at least to some degree, structurally states like texas and florida are markedly less democratic than states like oregon or washington (like not saying that as a cascadian pride thing, it's just that i'm familiar with voting systems over here)

Why is this conversation taking place itt?

indeed

― famous instagram dog (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, May 9, 2024 1:38 PM (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Started with Hillel saying it will not work with anyone who denies the right of Israel to exist "as a Jewish and democratic state"

but somehow we've moved on to "what is Democracy anyway?"

Started with Hillel saying it will not work with anyone who denies the right of Israel to exist "as a Jewish and democratic state"

this was alleged and not confirmed afaict

It's right here

https://www.hillel.org/israel-guidelines/

IIRC, the unconfirmed thing was a writer claiming that Hillel wouldn't accept *as a member* any Jewish person who called themselves anti-Zionist

where's the "what is democracy, anyway?" thread, i want to shitpost there

I would say it’s pretty clear from the way the guidelines are drafted that they don’t partner with or host organizations or speakers that are antizionist. It doesn’t say anything about barring individual antizionist students/members, in fact I’d say the guidelines imply the opposite.

agreed, I think the political pluralism section is pretty clear

Started with Hillel saying it will not work with anyone who denies the right of Israel to exist "as a Jewish and democratic state"

but somehow we've moved on to "what is Democracy anyway?"

― Never fight uphill 'o me, boys! (President Keyes), Thursday, May 9, 2024 10:46 AM bookmarkflaglink

"somehow" doing a ton of heavy lifting there, Keyes

yes, it was done by ilxors.

I'm surprised the NYT ran this good story.

Debate rages over the extent to which the protests on the political left constitute coded or even direct attacks on Jews. But far less attention has been paid to a trend on the right: For all of their rhetoric of the moment, increasingly through the Trump era many Republicans have helped inject into the mainstream thinly veiled anti-Jewish messages with deep historical roots.

The conspiracy theory taking on fresh currency is one that dates back hundreds of years and has perennially bubbled into view: that a shady cabal of wealthy Jews secretly controls events and institutions contrary to the national interest of whatever country it is operating in.

The current formulation of the trope taps into the populist loathing of an elite “ruling class.” “Globalists” or “globalist elites” are blamed for everything from Black Lives Matter to the influx of migrants across the southern border, often described as a plot to replace native-born Americans with foreigners who will vote for Democrats. The favored personification of the globalist enemy is George Soros, the 93-year-old Hungarian American Jewish financier and Holocaust survivor who has spent billions in support of liberal causes and democratic institutions.

Does it mention the Rothschilds? Soros is basically the new Rothschilds in the trope

It mentions the Protocols.

That's a good article about spreading antisemitic tropes. I wonder what goes through the minds of ilxors who also spread antisemitic tropes:

Scott just accused Sanders, who is Jewish, of "speaking with a forked tongue" in calling for a commitment not just to fight anti-Semitism but all forms of hatred.
— Dr. Mary Anne Franks (@ma_franks) May 7, 2024
― papal hotwife (milo z), Wednesday, 8 May 2024 00:31 (one week ago) link

And cloven hooves

― Are you addicted to struggling with your horse? (Boring, Maryland), Wednesday, 8 May 2024 01:21 (one week ago) link

We hear they drink children's blood.

― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 8 May 2024 01:23 (one week ago) link

With his receding hairline, Bernie has an increasingly hard time hiding his horns.

― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Wednesday, 8 May 2024 02:26 (one week ago) link

I seriously wonder how people pass these on while nobody comments how vile these are. You can't criticize a joke for being racist and then proceed to tell the racist joke for laughs if you want to be taken seriously as someone who cares about countering racism.

actually you can, it’s called having a sense of humor, you could try it sometime

is there a reason why you think it's acceptable to constantly drop into the antisemitism thread to argue with Jews about whether their POVs are valid?

seems to happen a lot with this thread for some reason

I just went back through the past few months of posts in this thread, and in them I haven't argued about whether something is or isn't antisemitism. I made a rash point about the noxious doofus at Columbia who posted some violent rhetoric, clarified my point, and hell, Shakey even *agreed* with me about a point regarding Hillel's charter.

I apologize if I don't absolutely trust the intentions of a poster who shows up in politics threads to ask disingenuous questions and browbeat posters that she disagrees with. Fwiw, I can see the point— that repeating antisemitic tropes as a form of levity can merely reinscribe the antisemitism of the tropes— but the accusatory tone is a bit too much for me. While we can have different views of the various posters in question, I'm pretty sure that they're not trying to turn ILX into the St**mfront boards. It feels more like calling out than calling in, and as I've seen how the former can go, I'm a bit more of a fan of the latter.

Shakey even *agreed* with me about a point regarding Hillel's charter.

I did no such thing

inclined to agree with table here tbh. Any country where there's a state religion and/or explicitly priveleged ethnic class... the track record is not good. With Israel being created with this *specific* goal, is it really any surprise things turned out the way they did.

― famous instagram dog (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, May 9, 2024 9:27 AM (six days ago) bookmarkflaglink

perhaps this was a point that was extrapolated out during the conversation about democracy and Israel as mentioned in Hillel's charter, but still.

yeah that is not related to the Hillel charter, was agreeing with you more broadly that ethnostates are fundamentally undemocratic

otherwise I agree w man alive's assessment of the Hillel charter

You don't need to agree with every last thing in this thread, just have a little bit of awareness of how it comes across when you repeatedly feel the need to use it as a platform to aggressively debate and insult people posting about their discomfort with various antisemitic tropes and declarations. Perhaps winning your point isn't as important as you may think.

I will be more mindful.

Fwiw, I can see the point— that repeating antisemitic tropes as a form of levity can merely reinscribe the antisemitism of the tropes— but the accusatory tone is a bit too much for me.

This was all you had to say.

Now why don't you try keeping my name out of your accusatory mouth. People can read for themselves what my posts say.