Israel/Palestine post 10/7 - follow-on events/thoughts as relate to other countries

I thought the 'argument' as to who the Palestinians were and why they didn't count was that they were just more of those amorphous nomadic arabs therefore didn't have a specific home or several thousand years of history there. Or well known food traditions in the area. Obviously one of the worst examples of racism trying to rewrite history. Sickening that that has been widely swallowed.

― Stevo, Wednesday, 29 May 2024 09:27 (two hours ago) link

Well I think it’s a little more complex than this, but you are right about the argument you are pushing against. I reject essentialist narratives about “the Palestinians” being “the indigenous people of Palestine” who have been there for thousands of years. “Palestinian” is a relatively modern national identity. It includes many people whose families have long established roots in the area, and it also includes Egyptians and Bosnians and Kurds and Syrians and other migrants who came later. Before the 20th C, people’s identities would have been more tied to their family, clan, and locale (eg Nablus) than “Palestine.” But that doesn’t render their identity or ties to the place less real or valid.

One would think this would bring some some moderation of Israeli policy, but no. This is the part of the tragedy of the situation the last 25 years that is especially disturbing to me.

― il lavoro mi rovina la giornata (PBKR), Wednesday, May 29, 2024 4:32 AM bookmarkflaglink

Oh totally. Trying to understand how they arrived at that particular aspect of the tragedy, I read a pretty sobering tweet that kind of pushed back on the diaspora "Westsplaining" of the situation. I'll post it here, not because I agree with it (I don't have this person's lived experience, it's not for me to agree with them) but because it made me curious to understand why they thought that way.

I'll paste it here for those that don't have twitter:

This is not true, but it does hint at a deep truth.

Yes, the American Jewish lesson from the Holocaust is to double down on tolerance and liberalism for all, because American Jews believe they were saved from the 20th century by these features of America.

But Israeli Jews didn’t have that privilege. They couldn’t avoid the cataclysm by relying on the great kindnesses and strengths of America. No one saved the Jews who would become Israel. No one would even take them in after the genocide. So their lesson was the opposite of the American Jewish one. They became obsessed with self-reliance.

In the Israeli Jewish experience, the world is uncaring and hypocritical at best, viciously evil at worst, and it can move from one to the other at the drop of a hat. The only real safety available to a small people is whatever power it can wield in its own defense by its own exertions. Any western elite that claims otherwise knows it will never itself face the consequences of being wrong.

Before you moralize your way out of grappling with this point, dear westerners, here’s one way to show Israelis they’re wrong: Stop the Assads of the world, in realtime, when it matters; meaningfully protect the Uyghurs, even when it means bucking a superpower. Until you can actually do what it takes to bring safety to small and vulnerable peoples, the Israelis will be right and your great moral vocabularies will be no more than undeserved self-adulation.

The Israeli message to Palestinians, then, isn’t that “only Jews get to be safe” - it’s that Palestinians need their own Zionism because only self-reliance brings safety.

The world’s love and concern for them is a mirage, a western elite’s self-validating moral cartoon about itself, not a willingness to actually protect and sacrifice for Palestinians. The very fact that the world is invested in Palestinians more than in any other conflict or suffering population combined is a sign that its concern isn’t the actual suffering but rather western elite narrative-making. True morality and real law would swing into action for others too.

Or put another way, the whirlwind of moralism that is so often described as “anti-Israel” is actually, in the Israeli understanding of history, anti-Palestinian, a vast and cruel political trap Palestinians have not yet seen for what it is.

Palestinians cannot claw back some imagined idyllic Palestine of yesteryear anymore than Jews can reverse the erasure of the ancient communities of Poland or Iraq. The only path available to any of us is to build a new future on the solid foundation of endogenous strength.

The only salvation available to Palestinians will come by Palestinian hands, Palestinian strategy and wisdom, and internal Palestinian solidarity.

That’s the Israeli “claim,” such as it is, and not just for Palestinians. For all small peoples.

https://x.com/havivrettiggur/status/1791309935910756629

He gave an interview in which he presents a version of history describing the path to that tragedy you mentioned. I thought his separation of the Palestinian nationalist movement (which he supports) from the Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood Islamist movement tracks with what some others have said.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvBm4Ua1dmI

I understand the urge for pacifism (who doesn't want peace?) and at the same time realize the limitations of my experiences. My mother lived through a brutal Japanese-Nazi occupation and attempted genocide and also watched the Chinese Red Army round up elites and shoot them in town squares. So not a big fan of authoritarian movements, no matter how well intentioned. I live in a country that can't solve school shootings or provide basic health care that has fallen capture to religious fundamentalists itself.

Yes, Western elites are renowned for being pro-Palestinian, wtf?

I have been wondering why there isn't a rolling islamophobia thread on here.

There is.

Yes, Western elites are renowned for being pro-Palestinian, wtf?

― Poets Win Prizes (Tom D.), Wednesday, May 29, 2024 6:03 AM bookmarkflaglink

You're saying this isn't true from your perspective?

it isn't true period

As a citizen of a small country which itself has long supported the Palestinian cause because of feelings of mutual experience - it’s not a coincidence that loyalists in Belfast fly Israeli flags and identify with the Israeli government, even though some of them have literal swastika tattoos - I fully understand the argument towards self determination. It’s actually my strongest point of sympathy towards the existence of Israel, that Jewish people should have a country, because all the others failed them.

But I don’t understand the argument, nor do I support it, that being strong means suppressing and treading on the rights of others. One of the many reasons I have that account blocked on Twitter.

I'm not disagreeing.

I suppose it depends on who you consider the "Western elites" to be. Right wing wankers tend to have a different idea of who constitutes an elite.

There are a million of these in Belfast. Some of them are older than I am.

Free Palestine Mural, St James', Belfast #FreePalestine pic.twitter.com/JPkay9wWcT

— Shamrock Superstore (@shamrocksupers1) May 18, 2021

But Israeli Jews didn’t have that privilege. They couldn’t avoid the cataclysm by relying on the great kindnesses and strengths of America. No one saved the Jews who would become Israel. No one would even take them in after the genocide. So their lesson was the opposite of the American Jewish one.

Come on, man, some of the most psychotically right-wing settlers in the West Bank moved there from Brooklyn. I'm not gonna say they are "typical Israelis" but they support the worst aspects of Israeli society and it's not because they weren't saved by American tolerance and liberalism, it's because they experienced it and rejected it in favor of something they liked better.

On the whole, I did not find that excerpt any more accurate than "they love dead Palestians the more dead Palestinians the better" as a description of the Israeli mindset, to the extent there is one.

That’s ridiculous.

I mean for starters it’s objectively false. The vast majority of Israelis are born in Israel and descended from refugees, either from the Holocaust/DP camps, or neighboring Arab countries who cleansed their Jewish populations, or other persecution like in ethiopia.

Loyalists (and Rangers fans) fly Israel flags partly because they are longest established trolls in world history tbf.

RE: that tweet. In the second half, I lost track of who he is addressing: westerners? western elites? all of whom supposedly support Palestinians and oppose Israel? That doesn't make sense to me when Western governments and economies are aggressively materially on Israel's "side." You can also see in the response to campus protests that Western institutions and the upper/ruling class are personally & financially invested in Israel as well.

The reason the US (as an example) isn't doing anything about the Uyghurs, Syrians, the Rohingya, Indian Muslims, or Palestinians is, to be reductive, because the US is completely indifferent to their lives when it's not actively trying to end them or, at least, acting in explicit opposition to Islamic culture and societies. Islam being a "civilizational" enemy was a totally mainstream opinion to express post-9/11, reverberating into Trump's apparently constitutional Muslim ban. Other Western countries have banned Muslim religious symbols and architecture; there is constant surveillance and police profiling of Muslims across the West; etc.

rob, there's a lot to unpick there and I'm frankly more interested in having this discussion with you than in trying to explain a third person's views, so yeah, glad to see there's some curiosity and happy to answer what I can.

It's an extremely bizarre tweet. I mean telling "the West" to rid the world of every dictator and protect other "small peoples" before asking Israel not to commit genocide seems a position intended to allow Israel to continue their work.

It also completely ignores that Western support goes to Israel, not to Palestine.

RE: that tweet. In the second half, I lost track of who he is addressing: westerners? western elites? all of whom supposedly support Palestinians and oppose Israel?

The twitter conversation is the best source for that, I think. Not that it's essential, just I would refer you there if you're interested in who he's addressing.

That doesn't make sense to me when Western governments and economies are aggressively materially on Israel's "side."

I think you've hit on something important, and I am curious about what doesn't make sense. Maybe it depends on whether we are talking about state action or effects on individuals. If you read ILX it has seemed like in some ways open season on Israel, as a whole, and for over 20 years and by extension, right or wrong, on Jewish people around the world. Not that my comfort is the most important

You can also see in the response to campus protests that Western institutions and the upper/ruling class are personally & financially invested in Israel as well.

I mean yes and no. I think I can see what you see from what you post (maybe I'm wrong). I don't know if you can see what I see. We can get into it more if you're curious.

The reason the US (as an example) isn't doing anything about the Uyghurs, Syrians, the Rohingya, Indian Muslims, or Palestinians is, to be reductive, because the US is completely indifferent to their lives when it's not actively trying to end them or, at least, acting in explicit opposition to Islamic culture and societies. Islam being a "civilizational" enemy was a totally mainstream opinion to express post-9/11, reverberating into Trump's apparently constitutional Muslim ban. Other Western countries have banned Muslim religious symbols and architecture; there is constant surveillance and police profiling of Muslims across the West; etc.

It's ok to be reductive, I feel, as it indicates trust. Just as an aside, FYI to put some things in perspective, when Trump was inaugurated I volunteered with the ACLU to work on legal challenges to the Muslim bans as they are clearly not constitutional.

I want to understand better. But I also don't want to insert myself and become a tourist where it's not my place to lead this discussion, as I find myself getting irritated when people, for example, revive the antisemitism to talk about the instrumentalization of antisemitism (aka "antisemitism, isn't it overrated?") rather than trying to counter antisemitism itself.

Anyway the starting point of this was my comment "relatable." I'd be interested to hear more from PBKR and ivy too.

The guy should have just called them "liberal elites" and not "Western elites" because that's obviously what he's talking about.

If you read ILX it has seemed like in some ways open season on Israel

ILX is not American, and to the extent people on ILX are American, they -- we -- are not collectively in step with the American public or the American government.

But man alive is right, my reaction to that tweet was too knee-jerky, the sentiment in Israel of "no one will come to help us, we are all alone, the world is always ready to grind us to a cinder" is real, I just think the second part "Israelis are clear-eyed enough to see that America is keeping Palestinians down by sending them food and building schools, only by stopping aid can the Palestinians shake off the soft bigotry of low expectations and rise to their full potential" is not an accurate account of the Israeli point of view.

If you read ILX it has seemed like in some ways open season on Israel,

Really unfair for the ILX elites to not be more open-minded about the country actively committing genocide.

One of the things I've been finding striking in Ben Gurion's biography is that I actually don't think he hated Arabs. In fact, he was far more able to put himself in their shoes than some of his Zionist compatriots, and frequently said/wrote things along the lines of "If I were them, I would be doing exactly what they are doing" (i.e. resisting, fighting, etc.) - I had seen a quote or two along these lines before, but I hadn't realized it was a theme of his thinking on the subject. He simply saw them as a rival group and national movement that was incompatible with his own national movement (which he was single-minded about pursuing for pretty much his entire life). He believed it was not possible to create a Jewish state without removing large numbers of Arabs from the land, because he did not believe they would accept a Jewish majority/Jewish state, and he may have been right. And I don't think he faulted them for not wanting to accept it. I have been grappling with this a lot, and it's part of why I want to read more about early binationalism, because I really want to understand if another way was possible. And if it wasn't, I still want to believe that another way is possible today.

Definitely when looking at certain institutions and how they have reacted for the past 6 months, for instance forcing out university presidents to appease donors, calling in the police to take down student encampments—it feels like the elites (the moneyed class) is quite pro-Israel, even if some parts of academia, without much real power, are pro-Palestian.

You can see this dynamic replicated in almost any institution you wish - news organisations, political parties, etc etc

xpost to Keyes When you put it that way, that's helpful, separating the elites as moneyed class from the academic vanguard.

As for news organizations, I'm interested in hearing more about that point. I was glad when you started the discussion about media diets because it feels like so much of this is a propaganda battle.

That tweet just seems insane to me, like literally psychotic

But let a hundred flowers bloom eh

When will the (non-ILX) open season on Israel stop.

BREAKING: Lula has withdrawn Brazil's ambassador to Israel.

— Read Let This Radicalize You (@JoshuaPHilll) May 29, 2024

felicity: idk why we have to consider or analyze a position that is completely unreasonable, condescending, racist, and not based in any kind of material reality. that's all i have to say about it

these thought experiments are getting more and more tedious to me, and are largely people tying themselves into knots trying to justify genocide, and in this particular case trying to pin it to a mentality that the israelis have and the palestinians don't, which is a totally fucked invention of this dumbass who sucks. i don't want to see this shit!

Well obviously you don't have to. Nobody's making anyone read this thread.

I agree with ivy. There are not two symmetrical sides to this conflict and anything suggesting otherwise is gaslighting.

the FP button is right there, folks

As you and your worthless conversations to this thread are ever-keen to remind us.

Contributions, ffs

He simply saw them as a rival group and national movement that was incompatible with his own national movement (which he was single-minded about pursuing for pretty much his entire life). He believed it was not possible to create a Jewish state without removing large numbers of Arabs from the land, because he did not believe they would accept a Jewish majority/Jewish state, and he may have been right. And I don't think he faulted them for not wanting to accept it. I have been grappling with this a lot, and it's part of why I want to read more about early binationalism, because I really want to understand if another way was possible. And if it wasn't, I still want to believe that another way is possible today.

Btw I really liked seeing this British political reporter with a huge platform say this about the (fucking centrists running the) Irish government the other day. But it’s nothing new as I said above.

Terrorism works https://t.co/BuNOVQxR70

— Adam Boulton (@adamboultonTABB) May 22, 2024

And just to be clear, man alive's posts are not the ones I am referring to.

“what if the Palestinians were self-reliant” motherfuck this racist motherfucker, the Palestinian people have survived numerous ethnic cleansing campaigns and genuine apartheid and this asshole has the temerity to tweet such garbage

hard to be self-reliant when insane 20- year old IDF soldiers can break into your house and terrorize your family for no fucking reason at anytime. like why are we even talking about this bullshit point

And tbc I wasn't defending the Haviv Rettig-Gur tweet, which I'm not even sure I entirely understand. But I was disagreeing with Eephus and therefore I guess agreeing with the first part of the tweet.

My partial understanding is that the demographics don’t support this, which I’ve seen discussed as “If everyone lived in one nation then Israeli Jews would cease being the majority”, which then directs back to a two state solution but then there’s the issue of non contiguous nationhood etc. Honestly I have no idea what a workable practical solution would be, but whatever it might be it’ll make the former Yugoslavia look functional.
― Roman Anthony gets on his horse (gyac), Wednesday, May 29, 2024 1:23 PM (seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I know there are some proposals for a "federation" and the like. Like one state made up of two sub-states. Reparations in lieu of right of return, and/or some limited right of return. I don't think everything necessarily needs to be treated as a single unbroken state so long as Palestinians have self determination and equal representation in joint governance issues. The modern western nation state is only one model, and a fairly young one. I'd like to read more about these proposals as well.

Yeah that’s quite similar to the way Bosnia is divided between Republika Srpks and the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina. My understanding from a friend who lives in one part is that it’s insanely segregated, her example was that she couldn’t catch a train directly between two parts (!). I think my main concern for functioning in such a state might be both under and overestimated: how do you live together in peace after that? Yet we do have examples of people doing so, albeit to varying degrees of happiness. In the end, nobody wants to live like this. It’s just what people are prepared to give up.

I agree with ivy. There are not two symmetrical sides to this conflict and anything suggesting otherwise is gaslighting.

― il lavoro mi rovina la giornata (PBKR), Wednesday, May 29, 2024 11:15 AM bookmarkflaglink

Yea, sorry, not trying to suggest there is a symmetry or gaslight anyone. Clearly I have been tactless and I apologize.

BiH still has problems but you can travel between the two parts easily by a pretty comprehensive intercity bus network. The rail system is practically non-existent anywhere in the country.

Yeah I did wonder when I was posting that how true that was. It’s a beautiful country but the little I saw when I visited made it very clear exactly how fucked things are not too far below the surface.

you can just publish this sort of thing in a mainstream magazine i guess - https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/live-law-die-cross-israel

We need to look for standards from within our tradition to set a moral example for the whole world, while making it more practically possible to defend our homeland.

Instead of bragging about the extra danger our soldiers experience for the sake of sparing enemy noncombatants, we should reject the premise that we Jews bear any responsibility for protecting the human shields employed by our enemy.

Instead of threatening Jews with arrest for praying on the Temple Mount, we should take a hint from the “Al-Aqsa” moniker our attackers gave to their day of savage invasion and let Cohens up there on the hill to slaughter lambs for Passover.

And above all—given that land is nearly all that matters to this death-worshipping foe—instead of repeatedly withdrawing troops from areas we have just taken over so we can deny having unchristian territorial ambitions, we should conquer, annex, and resettle parts of Gaza so that Jews and friendly gentiles both can live there safely.

What was that about psychotic Americans settling in Israel?