Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

^^^ this is important to understand in any possible resolution. In fact this has shaped the situation since at least the 1920s if not earlier - the cycle of Palestinians resisting and hating the presence of Zionists and Zionists experiencing the hatred and violent resistance and fearing it, which often in turn entrenched them more against the Palestinians. Even Zionists who hoped to coexist with rather than displace Palestinian Arabs were often turned away from that hope by the cycle of violence that was beyond their control. An Israeli I know once told me "I think what Israel has done to the Palestinians is horrible. But given the chance, they do the same to us." Another Israeli told me he remembers serving in the West Bank and hearing "Iftach al Yahud!" ("slaughter the Jews") from mosque loudspeakers. Both were at least liberal politically and had supported the Oslo process. The Second Intifada was a huge factor in the rise of the far right. I say all this as analysis, not justification. Right or wrong, most people take violent threats against them as a bad thing, and people under violence or threat of violence tend to focus on the immediacy of the threat rather than its historical context/who was the first mover.

I think that hatred can be changed and calmed, but you can't just tear down the walls and assume everyone will run to hug each other.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, May 30, 2024 10:40 AM (six days ago) bookmarkflaglink

Isn’t the issue here though that Palestinians ultimately don’t want “revenge” as much as the dissolution of the Israeli state

citation needed? Think they might just want their children to stop being killed & homes destroyed for a start.

there’s a citation needed for the idea some substantial portion of Palestinians want the state free of Israeli rule ?

their own state, yes…

there’s a citation needed for the idea some substantial portion of Palestinians want the state free of Israeli rule ?

Isn’t the issue here though that Palestinians ultimately don’t want “revenge” as much as the dissolution of the Israeli state

“why does nobody ever bump the Islamophobia thread on ilx”

I don’t really get what you’re arguing with here. My point was painting the logic as primarily abt revenge ignores the concrete political goals we see ppl express all the time, like sure a 2 state solution but also ppl who have more radical anti colonial goals. I think the citation needed would be for the person insisting this is not the case ..?

fwiw the concrete political goals of the palestinian boys in the doc i watched were to get their families’ land back and be free of israeli control eg they wanted self determination. “dissolution of the israeli state” was not big on the agenda

that's more hamas talk

I don’t really get what you’re arguing with here. My point was painting the logic as primarily abt revenge ignores the concrete political goals we see ppl express all the time, like sure a 2 state solution but also ppl who have more radical anti colonial goals. I think the citation needed would be for the person insisting this is not the case ..?

tl;dr Said:

really nothing has substantially changed in the discourse since Edward Said wrote this in 1979. pic.twitter.com/Lj6P51G1RW

— michael (@Sisyphusa) June 4, 2024

I think you're both trying to say the similar things but it's hard to tell.

Seemed obvious to me. Gyacs not interested in finding that out though

to my eyes, D-40, there's a very substantial shift between the two posts gyac quoted - "the dissolution of the Israeli state" and "the state free of Israeli rule" are two different things. given the history of the conflict and the discourse around it, and the way the Palestinian cause is often framed as a desire for "the destruction of Israel," people can be very attentive to what may appear to be rhetorical elisions tending in that direction. at least, that's my read on this conversation.

not imputing any particular position to you - just trying to identify where the disconnect may be happening.

I am shocked that "the Palestinians don't want Israeli rule over them or an Israeli state generally" is a controversial opinion......

I know this is cynical and not how it is/how anyone is trying to say it.... but this feels like liberal pandering, where we rob Palestinians of their right to seek justice by assuring ourselves and the rest of the world that they are so kind and meek as to not want recompense or restitution. Hence, denying the Palistinian desire for a state/land free from Israeli rule feels far more offensive and oppressive than the opposite.

Are we just scared to say it because it could slippery-slope it's way down to anti-semitism? Fair enough to be aware of a slippery slope, not fair enough to police correct statements that haven't yet travelled downbeat direction while saying something truthful

*its, down that. I hate this samsung keyboard

I feel like I lost the plot on this argument, but I did see a poll of Palestinians recently (trying to find it, but it was by a Palestinian polling operation) where the option of a "binational state" was fairly unpopular, but "armed struggle for the liberation of Palestine" was popular. You could read that as "the liberation of Palestine" meaning something other than a binational state. OTOH, I think polling is of really limited value in situations like this, as it only gives you a sense of how people are feeling in a brief snapshot in time, based on recent events, influenced by strong emotions/frustration/lack of hope about other options, etc. I think when an option seems within reach, it is more popular than when it does not seem within reach.

And because of this, I try to remind myself to be generous in my interpretation of Palestinian opinion polls, because Israel has the power and the upper hand, and annihilation of Israel isn't actually on the table right now. And I think I posted a quote upthread from a Fatah politician who said that when he was a teenager he wanted "From The River To The Sea," yet the second it looked like a two-state solution was actually possible, he and a lot of others he knew rejoiced. To a certain extent, the same is also true of Israeli opinion polls, but I don't want to "both sides" this, because Israelis get to remain comfortable with or without a political solution, and that makes their position different.

Good posts man alive.

I wonder how the Palestinian citizens of Israel would view this question (also something that polling is not conclusive about)

most of my point of view has been colored by walking home to my college housing apartment circa september 2000 and encountering my temporary roommate (his building was under construction and opening the next month) watching Frontline on PBS. he remarked “I’m supposed to be in this episode!” and sure enough, partway in he is there in tel aviv at a government office waving a land deed at the door, along with dozens of others

it was a time where right of return was a dream people believed in. his family had been refugees and eventually fled, but always held on with their hearts. I wish I’d asked him so many more things about it but it stuck with me. his family members that lived there, some of their peers are still around in gaza and the west bank

I don’t think I realized how brave that was at the time, either

I wonder how the Palestinian citizens of Israel would view this question (also something that polling is not conclusive about)

― symsymsym, Thursday, 6 June 2024 02:05 (one hour ago) link

The hosts of the Third Narrative podcast (Ibrahim and Amira, one is a '48er Palestinian-Israeli citizen and the other a '67er Palestinian-Israeli citizen) and their guests talk about this often, the diversity of views, how each of them view Palestinian-Israeli citizens who came from other regions, their experience of the Nakba, and the cultural stereotypes and myths within their own subgroups. They often don't agree with each other or their guests from episode to episode. It's pretty eye-opening when they have diaspora guests on from the rest of the world.

And because of this, I try to remind myself to be generous in my interpretation of Palestinian opinion polls, because Israel has the power and the upper hand, and annihilation of Israel isn't actually on the table right now. And I think I posted a quote upthread from a Fatah politician who said that when he was a teenager he wanted "From The River To The Sea," yet the second it looked like a two-state solution was actually possible, he and a lot of others he knew rejoiced. To a certain extent, the same is also true of Israeli opinion polls, but I don't want to "both sides" this, because Israelis get to remain comfortable with or without a political solution, and that makes their position different.

Man I made some post months ago where I talked about how ugly peace actually is because of what’s got to be compromised and set aside and I can’t find it. That’s basically the point I’m getting at.

I'm so confused but I thought that D-40's point was similar: that it is unrealistic to attempt to portray the Palestinians as completely devoid of anti-Israeli sentiment or require them to be before acknowledging their right to self-determination, which is what the West (or at least the US) seems to do/expect.

I'll stop now.

My point is that introducing such a point to the thread, when Palestinians have watched tens of thousands of them die in a matter of months is, honestly, suspicious. Are they supposed to turn the other cheek and not feel a way about it?

It’s especially strange as a response to that excellent man alive post which discusses the cycle of hatred and inherent difficulty in resolving the conflict.

Gyac: I just happened to listen to this interview which I think is very much in line with what you’re saying. It’s too short and I wish there was more detail on the book (which, unfortunately, is a $125 academic book). But she touched on Bosnia and Northern Ireland as models and emphasizes that any peace will be “not ideal.” She also says that we need to accept that a solution may not look 100% like the kind of secular liberal democracy we prefer in North America and Europe because of the constituencies that actually exist in Israel and Palestine. She claims to have a different model for a two state solution based on equality and cooperation rather than just separation, but there wasn’t really enough detail on that in the interview (maybe she means more like the “federation” model).

I also feel like I need a better understanding of the distinctions between a binational state and a single secular democratic state, which is a distinction mentions but doesn’t have time to elaborate on.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tel-aviv-review/id913491428?i=1000638935400

Excerpt here. Reading.
https://read.amazon.com/sample/B0BZJCPX9M?f=1&l=en_US&r=d68710e8&rid=SA4G7QQZ74PVH75W814H&sid=136-0770471-4189601&ref_=litb_m

Thanks so much, I’ll check that out & let you know what I think.

The latest atrocity is just relegated to the bottom of the news now.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/06/israel-gaza-war-idf-strike-un-school-al-nuseirat-death-toll-hamas

xxpost I was able to skim some parts of that book, man alive. It sounds like she has in mind a geographic state in which there are two citizenries, who each have the right of movement through the entire space.

It's offered as "non-ideal" solution to get around the problems caused by settlers and to stop people from ending up on the wrong side of a partition.

Seeing tweets saying 200 Palestinians were killed to get to these four hostages

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/08/israel-rescues-four-hostages-in-gaza-taken-from-nova-music-festival

My point is that introducing such a point to the thread, when Palestinians have watched tens of thousands of them die in a matter of months is, honestly, suspicious. Are they supposed to turn the other cheek and not feel a way about it?

― Roman Anthony gets on his horse (gyac), Thursday, 6 June 2024 11:52 (three days ago) link

Where did you read I was saying turn the other cheek? I think you’re misinterpreting my post here. I’m suggesting there are political end games here that don’t necessarily involve violent retribution in theory if not practice

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/09/moderate-politician-benny-gantz-resigns-israeli-war-cabinet

At this point the big question in my mind is whether the majority in Israel will ever be capable of accepting peace with a free and autonomous Palestinian state on their border, as opposed to seeking complete Palestinian capitulation, subjugation, or genocide - because Israel is demonstrably the only party to this war who can negotiate an enduring peace through offering meaningful concessions. the Palestinians have nothing left to bargain with but their lives and they have no motivation to sell them cheaply.

Times of London investigation: https://www.thetimes.com/magazines/the-times-magazine/article/israel-hamas-rape-investigation-evidence-october-7-6kzphszsj

Paywalled.

I found an archived version. If you just want to know what evidence there is, albeit this is two months old so possibly out of date, I thought this was a much better and more streamlined piece, free of the endless contextualization and meditation and chin-scratching under which any actual information is buried in these rape thinkpieces. I am tired of reading these long windups in which the already-debunked early, fog-of-war/telephone game type claims are debunked yet again so that we don't get to what actually happened until paragraph 20, at which point we are already primed not to believe them by insinuation that this is all just sexualized fear of Arab men.

https://www.haaretz.com/search-results?q=rape

Mass clearly occurred, some rapes almost certainly occurred, and there probably isn't a Hamas pamphlet that says "rape as many women as possible." Is this satisfactory yet? I certainly don't see any of the claims about abuse of Palestinian women in the LRB piece (I think it was in the other thread) subject to this kind of endless scrutiny.

Sorry, this is the haaretz piece I meant to link
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-18/ty-article-magazine/witnesses-confessions-naked-dead-bodies-all-the-evidence-of-hamas-rape-on-oct-7/0000018e-f114-d92e-abfe-f77f7e3f0000

I was just going to link the archive, fuck the Times (in general, not related to this piece): https://archive.is/NS2g0

Most articles (and discussion itt) touch on but don’t actually focus on a big part of the racialising of Muslim men, which is a trope that no doubt goes back centuries (the uncivilised savages targeting OUR women) and which you still see leaned on heavily today by Serb nationalists (re the Bosnian war) both in reference to the Ottomans and to the events of the war. Certainly Serb and Croat women were raped and assaulted in numbers, but the scale of the Serb camps for Bosnian women were of a different degree of both intent and execution. I think some of the degree of exaggeration deliberately mirror and reference this trope.

However, I refer to my previous points: nothing can justify the actions of the Israeli government. And there are women who have been assaulted, which I don’t think people itt dispute. I just don’t get the degree of constant fascination with this; because there have been so many lies by the Israeli government that have fallen apart. Israeli women still suffered, and it really makes me very uncomfortable that some seem incapable of threading the needle of the truth of what happened and the fact that women are and were suffering. They’re not the majority victims of this conflict, but they don’t have to be for their suffering to be meaningful, and it’s completely unnecessary to repeat the kind of talking points you see on the internet everywhere regarding discussion of rape.

otm

The Israeli army burning down the Indonesian Hospital in northern Gaza, one of the largest in the area. Healthcare has been completely destroyed in Gaza in order to maximise Palestinian deaths. War of elimination. pic.twitter.com/4CzobecOSE

— Nicola Perugini (@PeruginiNic) June 15, 2024

In a Single Hour, Israeli Snipers Killed Seven Bystanders at the Jenin Refugee Camp (Haaretz article): https://archive.ph/rHAkE

Jenin has endured plenty of rough days lately, but May 21 outdid them all. In the course of one hour in the morning, snipers killed seven of the city's residents, all of them innocent passersby, even though the streets were quiet and the soldiers had no cause to open fire. They shot from high up in two buildings, called Rabia and A-Rein, just outside the camp, and the dead included two teenagers and the director of the surgical ward at the Jenin Governmental Hospital, who was just getting out of his car in the hospital's parking lot.

It’s like a horror movie that just keeps going.

https://archive.is/6ZFjn