David Goyer adapting Asimov's Foundation books for Apple+ (Previously: Jonathan Nolan adapting Asimov's Foundation books for HBO)

HMMMM.

hard to imagine any sci-fi classic that would be more boring to watch onscreen. these books are quite literally action-free.

aren't they mostly about math?

i actually read at least 4 or 5 of them when i was 10 or 11, but i can barely remember anything about them.

i love these books to a ridiculous degree but i don't think they would make particularly good movies.

There's an amazing twist with the Mule at the end of book 2, if i recall, so definitely think this could be compelling.

Well, the original involves empires, and this is HBO, so no doubt they'll find ways to write in intrigue and boobs

they span thousands (millions?) of years, have no central characters... this is a stupid idea

xp

long (reallllly long) expository sections in place of characters interacting

they probably were just like "game of thrones in spaaaaaace" and HBO said go for it. (not that they are really similar, just "beloved book series")

"And what are your credentials?"

"I just cowrote a big space movie with my brother! With emotion! Which I will bring to this adaptation!"

"Uh...okay."

yeah i reread them last year and once the mule enters the picture the whole thing becomes way more gripping. the problem i've always had recommending them to people is that the first book is by far the worst, but asimov was like 21 when he started writing them so watching him gradually become a better writer is fascinating in and of itself. also some surprisingly strong and interesting female characters in the second and third books, along with some of the weirdest and most convoluted plots i can remember in any classic SF stuff.

there is a lot of intrigue, but it's all so divorced from, like, actual humans - the Mule is good but so much of the series is this giant abstraction

the later foundation books are mostly really terrible but iirc the very last one asimov wrote right before he died, about the early life of hari seldon, is pretty good.

j.d. otm that the first three books get better as they go

love love love second foundation so much

don't think they would make good movies, though

pretty much because of what was said upthread re: giant abstraction

"Ars has confirmed not only that Foundation was in development, but it has now been given a full series order—meaning we're definitely going to see it." #AsimovFTW https://t.co/YnzcjTcQZx

— Ars Technica (@arstechnica) August 29, 2018

It’s probably going to look amazing and it’s definitely going to be better than that insipid Star Trek revive that was only watched by people who write nerd tv recaps for their side gig

Discovery was pretty good. Definitely wouldn't call it insipid.

It wasn’t. You should.

Took forever but some actual news (also, on Apple+ TV now):

https://deadline.com/2019/10/foundation-lee-pace-jared-harris-cast-star-in-apple-series-based-on-isaac-asimovs-sci-fi-classic-1202765708/

Lee Pace (Halt and Catch Fire) and Jared Harris (Chernobyl) have been tapped as leads in Foundation, Apple TV+’s upcoming drama series based on Isaac Asimov’s science fiction novel trilogy.

Harris as Seldon, Pace as the Emperor "Brother Day" which...what?

happy 100th, isaac

Y'all saw that a black woman was cast as Salvor Hardin, right? The furious nerd tears are going to be so delicious.

after the racist "joke" Asimov aimed at Samuel Delaney when he won a slew of awards and the repeated, documented sexual harassment and assault Asimov was known to engage in.... good

Love Lee Pace, love Harris, and especially love the books but I can't see this series keeping the spirit of the books while staying watchable

Well we got a sort-of trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgbPSA94Rqg

Hm hm hm, maybe. But per Eliza's post there a few back, all the better that the main figures aren't ALL white dudes...even with Goyer Goyering, though, so we'll see. If anything this seems more like a riff on the core story, and I'm not sure still what the whole 'Brother Day' thing is w/r/t the Empire, especially since there are two other characters called "Brother Dawn" and "Brother Dusk."

My thing is he is somehow the worse Nolan

Looks like that Nolan's not actually involved now, though, just Goyer and others. Should update the subject line.

It’d be nice if Goyer has figured out how to write a single woman by this point

not as in uncoupled, but (1) character who is a woman

That's a claim:

"Foundation" writer and showrunner David Goyer is ambitiously hoping to tell Isaac Asimov's science-fiction story over the course of eighty hours.

Well, anyway, it's almost here. Goyer interview has this bit:

“The book series itself makes these massive leaps forward in time, and particularly the first book is very ontological,” Goyer said. “Very few characters continue from one story to the next. My very first meeting at Apple, I said to them, ‘Guys, time is a character. You’re just going to have to embrace that.’ We do time jumps. We’re going to jump forward. We’re going to jump backwards. Sometimes we’re going to tell two parallel storylines that are operating at different times. We just have to embrace it. It would be insanity not to embrace it. And fortunately, everyone embraced it.”

Which, honestly, I have no problem with -- would actually explain some of the trailers we've seen.

It’d be nice if Goyer has figured out how to write a single woman by this point

Annnnnnd maybe he hasn't but:

“In this case, because Asimov wasn’t alive, I was talking to his estate, to his daughter, and I said, I want to make sure that I’ve identified the core ingredients that make Foundation, Foundation. Fortunately, they said, yeah, we feel like you’ve zeroed in on the most important elements. And because we’re adapting it now, over 70 years after Asimov first wrote it—you know, it was a metaphorical story back in the post-World War II environment—some of the events, some of the things that we’re interrogating, we’re going to have to change because we’re speaking to an audience of today and not an audience post-World War II.”

The first big, important change: diversifying the characters. “Because there are virtually no female characters in the first book, I said to the Asimov estate, ‘How would you how would you feel if we gender-flipped a couple of the characters?’ And they said, ‘We love it. We think Asimov himself would have completely embraced that,’” Goyer said.

Not that that gets him automatic points for trying for any number of reasons, but I guess we'll see.

Asimov well known for completely embracing female convention goers

Ugh

Of the Big Three, I sort only have time for Arthur C. Clarke these days, but would watch this, especially for Jared Harris.

Asimov’s son a piece of work too, but maybe shouldn’t go there.

I remember reading something Fred Pohl said about Asimov’s behavior. Actually I met both of them and for some reason liked Pohl a lot better than Asimov.

Lee Pace says things. Apparently the future is we're all dominated by endless Lee Pace clones, and I fail to see the problem.

https://gizmodo.com/foundations-lee-pace-i-love-science-fiction-1847708416

So this thread then? Albums covers that depict the artists hanging out with their clones

i like this? not terribly fast-moving, but i'm okay with that. not sure i believe the lead actress is 26

lose the voiceovers tho

Saw the first episode and was honestly most intrigued by how they were trying to solve the problem of 'things which everyone now knows from what's come after/ripped it off so how do we do it differently?' eg making Trantor not quite Coruscant, trying to figure out a new way to do faster than light speed, etc. Lee Pace perfectly cast of course.

I was amused by the entire imperial library being smaller than big city central libraries I've known. Though maybe the rest of it goes eight miles deep or something.

Enjoying this so far, I was wondering if the 80 hours idea is for real? I'm only two episodes in and they've gone quite a ways into Asimov's story already.

Well yes and no, in terms of the original stories they’ve essentially only done the very first, the rest is stuff drawn out from the prequels, most of which I’d forgotten about, or wholly invented.

So, at this rate, if the show gets canned at the end of S3 they'll probably have done most of the book series before they start making stuff up.

Perhaps? They're definitely tempting fate a bit with that initial voiceover going all in on naming Hober Mallow and the Mule. The fact that they're leaning into the robot stuff early, again not surprising given the prequel books, but also I think they figured there was more potential for actual drama beyond stories that mostly could be filmed as stage plays with people batting ideas back and forth.

Further elaborating a bit but again I am amused but not surprised at how thoroughly it's repurposing just about everything from a ton of filmed SF of recent years. Inevitable Galactica vibes on this colonist ship, the floating particle stuff reminds me of Krypton from Man of Steel, lots of anime vibes from spaceships in general, etc. etc. Arguably the basic story is just a gloss over the rest. That said, again given the plainness of that basic story stylistically, seeing them tackle questions of design, costume, etc. in particular is of interest since there's no real guide and I've kinda been pleasantly surprised -- it'll be interesting to contrast that against the designs in the new Dune.

i haven't read these books in well over 35 years so looking forward to watching this series without that baggage

Ha, same, pretty much.

Looks like we get season 3 trailer tomorrow…

And here we go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bMCpnEi4k0

Looks like those budget concerns we talked about previously aren't as much of one now! And boy are we getting big space opera beats with this one.

Plus an official description of the season, which I will spoiler-proof for those wanting to go in cold:

“Set 152 years after the events of season two, the Foundation has become increasingly established far beyond its humble beginnings while the Cleonic Dynasty’s Empire has dwindled. As both of these galactic powers forge an uneasy alliance, a threat to the entire galaxy appears in the fearsome form of a warlord known as ‘The Mule’ whose sights are set on ruling the universe by use of physical and military force, as well as mind control. It’s anyone’s guess who will win, who will lose, who will live and who will die as Hari Seldon, Gaal Dornick, the Cleons, and Demerzel play a potentially deadly game of intergalactic chess.”

New cast members: Cherry Jones, Brandon P. Bell, Synnøve Karlsen, Cody Fern, Tómas Lemarquis, Alexander Siddig, and Troy Kotsur, plus Pilou Asbæk as the Mule, which is a recast from Mikael Persbrandt in the couple of brief scenes from last season.

Anyway, as always, please enjoy some Lee Pace:

https://gizmodo.com/app/uploads/2025/05/Foundation_302_LeePace-1.jpg

Exciting! Now weighing whether or not to do a rewatch of the first two seasons before this starts. I rewatched s1 before s2 and it really helped.

I've gathered that season 4 has already got a commitment, though it will be the first without Goyer as full showrunner. And the new showrunner was the one behind Fear the Walking Dead? Hm.

Nice trailer. yes, doesn't seem like they skimped on budget here

Hell yeah to this, for sure. It's like the opposite of _Andor_ in terms of gritty sf vs. space opera and both goddamn work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C53xEOdxz70

Hmm, interesting bit from Goyer here re: where things might go next.

“I don’t want to give away too much, but I will say that moving from season three to season four is the first time we do not jump forward centuries,” Goyer said of Foundation. (The show’s third season does indeed pick up 152 years after season two, as the season two finale had promised.) “So in a way, one might think of season three and season four as one sort of 20-episode season.”

(To my mind this all makes sense since they're already bringing in Preem Palver as a character and while everything's been generally loose as an adaptation, this all feels like an extended mashup of the Mule/Second Foundation stories at play -- and you might as well have a cliffhanger or two, as those stories allowed for. If he's still thinking eight seasons as a whole somehow, presumably Foundation's Edge for five? Maybe?)

Wow, I can’t imagine a show of this expense and narrative density is going to last 8 seasons

Well it might not! Goyer has been quoted as saying that was his goal, but that he had 'off ramp' ideas for two, four and six seasons if they faced the ax at those points. The fourth season hasn't been officially announced yet but it sounds like he's pretty confident there, and if that turns out to be the final one, I might not entirely mind since the feeling is almost like that would indirectly cover the original three books/collections. (Edge and Foundation and Earth are...things.)

And off and running with the first episode of the new season. Really enjoy how each season allows for a combination of resetting things with the actors continuing through and introducing a clutch of solid new casting choices, especially the unfamiliar-to-me ones (but it's great seeing Alexander Siddiq in anything), as well as setting the parameters anew re what names and characters are kept but how the overall situation is revamped. (Pretty hilarious how the whole Mule/clown thing is set up and then immediately settled.) Also kinda awesome getting both a quick Ralph Ineson cameo and then later in the episode his daughter Rebecca turns out to have a continuing role in the season. Plus, damn, still looks absolutely fantastic in terms of design, effects, etc.

Goyer is also involved in Murderbot. I wonder if the two shows share sets or anything like that.

If they’re both filmed in Prague…?

The birthplace of the robot

iirc murderbot is filmed in toronto

Just caught up with the first episode. Such a good looking show and great to get to spend more time in this universe with these characters.

I wish I’d done a rewatch of s2 just to remember some of the finer details. But yeah I’m very happy to be back in this world. This show doesn’t always work but I appreciate its ambition. It has a whole vibe that is very much its own thing, not aesthetically indebted to any particular predecessor show or film.

I kinda like how Gaal wasn't really there at all for the first episode beyond the v.o. and the very last moment -- just a handy setting of the stage.

Last couple of episodes have been VERY interesting in terms of building out 'now' from the past few years in the show's timeline. I also have a bit of a theory, and this gets deep into "I've known the stories now for over forty years" territory so stay away unless that describes you as well:

So as noted earlier: it seemed like we had dispensed with the whole Mule/jester deal in the initial episode, and the whole setup even from last season is that the Mule is meant to be this terrifying warlord figure. Further, we've had enough scenes now with the Mule pulling the mindgames and things that, okay, that must be him. But THEN in last week's episode we've got good ol' Magnifico Giganticus separately rocking his visi-sonor -- I rather liked that setup -- and the whole 'the Mule treats me bad' and Bayta ends up taking him along vibes all from the original story. So now I'm wondering what kind of threaded needle they're setting up for both the people who haven't read the books and those who have and already know the answer there, because what's happening in the stories doesn't QUITE seem like the answer they're doing here. My big guess is the 'Mule' of the series is somehow a total headfake and M.G. is using him as cover somehow, but that's going to require a lot more explanations as we go. Which they might be able to pull off! Alternately the production could be trying to hoodwink everybody and M.G. is just more of a willing follower to the 'real' Mule acting as if he's a put upon servant so he can help the Mule fuck over people more effectively. We'll see!

I am still baffled by the selective specificity of Seldon’s psychohistory. I love the overall scope of the show but whenever he says things like “you weren’t supposed to survive” or whatever—predicting down to the fate of a specific individual—it shakes me out of the show.

agreed

i've only watched the first two of s03, but i find the show gorgeous and basically nonsensical. psychohistory could not possibly have accounted for the mule, nor could gaal have been prepared to meet the aftermath

they're completely making shit up as they go along imo

which i'm not necessarily against -- they left the text behind years ago -- but i'm unimpressed with the replacement

the show went off a cliff for me when Gaal started having mystical visions, but whatever it's still pretty good.

I'm only two eps in as well, but I'm really enjoying the wtf-ness of it all. Lee Pace as a shirtless brooding stoner is great. And I'm really loving Euron Greyjoy's take on The Mule, his scenes have been brutal. Also loved the speeder bike shadow chase, feels like the production values went up a bit this season.

I'd figured we'd have heard something more about that version of Dawn who escaped at the end of last season. I thought he would have fathered a non-clone bloodline that would have claim to the throne, setting off civil wars in the empire. But maybe the clones are sterile?

Could be!

This latest episode today was really good -- extremely tense ending!

enjoying this! very good episode

Yeah, ramped up the soap part of space opera just enough but made it work. Also I'm now dimly seeing more how they can hold to certain key beats from the original stories if they choose to, but I'm still waiting for things to play out to be sure. These last two episodes will be kinda insane.

the hologram Seldon stuck with the first Foundation doing his “oh, that’s excellent. also, what exactly is ‘the Mule’?” bit from last week had me laughing

Season finale tomorrow and we got season 4 incoming:

https://gizmodo.com/foundation-will-return-for-season-4-2000657700

How well this will work without Goyer, guess we'll see.

Omg next episode is the finale?? It doesn’t feel like we’re ready for the climax

Oh it's very much a cliffhanger of some sort, Goyer indicated that a long while back. Basically that things wouldn't be as (relatively) neat as the previous two season enders were.

(I also noticed in looking through some of the PR stuff when the season dropped, interviews and that, that pretty much press had access to all of the season *except* the last episode. So they're intentionally driving a bit of hype here. I have a couple of half guesses but we'll see what happens; as it stands my particular guess in my hidden comment on July 31st still holds true and is in fact being quietly bolstered as the season has gone on. My podcast cohost Jared hasn't read the stories -- he just got a copy of the original Foundation itself, not the full trilogy -- so his perspective on these admittedly heavily reworked scenarios has been interesting and in particular he's made some guesses as to the Mule that haven't hit the actual mark of where the stories themselves went, so I'll be both interested to see what happens tomorrow as well as what he thinks -- whatever it turns out to be!)

And looking waaaay back upthread:

So, at this rate, if the show gets canned at the end of S3 they'll probably have done most of the book series before they start making stuff up.

As it stands, S4 will I'm guessing essentially cover what's left of the original trilogy-as-such, so not far off. No idea if Goyer's original eight season plan (if you will) will hold, depending, but whatever wild riffs they want to do with Edge and ...and Earth, hey, especially since that they've finally made it explicit in the show that Demerzel is Daneel, straight from the prequel books.

Whew, okay, that was WILD -- they absolutely pulled off a real headfake re the Mule! And then on top of that we both lose Demerzel/Daneel AND at the very very end reveal that a key beat from the end of Foundation and Earth which as written does have Daneel is now in play! Man I am here for the continuing madness.

This Goyer interview has a lot more re decisions made and where the future may go.

This was great, tight, dramatic. DuskDarkness' very destructive remote control! Day :( Demerzel survives in robot skull form?

Fun finale. Questions/observations:

—does this mean Lee Pace is no longer in the show??

—I think Demerzel could still come back since her head/skull remained intact

—I didn’t like the Mule fake out at all. I’d have to go back and rewatch the season to see if they really laid that groundwork but it felt really forced and unearned.

Combining responses:

In re Laura Birn and Lee Pace, do read that Goyer interview, as he addresses both, cagily but without absolute clarity either. As for the Mule fakeout, this interview with Synnove Karlsen (ie the actress that plays Bayta) I thought raised some good points as to how they and she specifically tried to convey things: https://gizmodo.com/foundation-star-synnove-karlsen-walks-us-through-that-jaw-dropping-finale-2000656636 -- I did notice that she always seemed a little more on the ball than Torie and well, there was a reason!

I’d have to rewatch the season to decide if the twist was earned, but it didn’t feel like it was.

Wild finale with quite a few shocks.

Also thought the Mule twist felt a bit unearned but man, Dusk really broke bad in the final two episodes. And fairly sure they could concoct some cloning shenanigans for Pace to continue

I saw it mentioned in an interview or something, but re: groovypanda's last point

Apparently what was apparently a robot in shadow in that last scene was voiced by Pace? We also have a Day that is still with the Mule, right? He couldn't stand up from the bed and was left in there.

I keep reading this thread as David Groyper ...

Another enjoyable season, though I liked the two previous seasons more. Kind of ridiculous to say given how little Asimov develops his characters but I think the books did a better job with Magnifico, Bayta, and Ebling Mis, who we barely get a sense of in this show. The twist did feel unearned and specifically meant to troll us book readers, though I did read a Goyer interview where he mentions some clues that I missed. As usual, the Dawn/Day/Dusk storylines were the highlight, particularly Dusk's. A very fitting end to their legacy. Lee Pace celebrated that the show is getting another season, so I guess that means he'll be in it? Certainly hope so, he elevates the show a lot

the 1973 radio four adaptation (which i enjoyed on first broadcast)* is here: https://www.scifimike.com/sf-radio-foundation.html

in conclusion everyone in space is posh**

*i was 12 and went on to read the books which i imagine i quite liked but never reread) (bcz by then i was older than 12)
**sfx (sound and music) is im guessing the radiophonic workshop, tremendous boop-bleepy work from them

i continue to watch the TV show mainly for how it looks (alien worlds aplenty 👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽)

but i think this is the SLOWEST drama i ever ploughed thru: "the narrative spans centuries ppl, let's make the viewer really FEEL that, every conversation an aeon"

also the ruling family never change and despite being evil they are the three most boring ppl in galactic history

Banality of evil doncha know

I dunno, Lee Pace hams it up plenty enough! But yeah Pitt the Younger whatever his name was, was a bit wet.