Is the West Experiencing a Right-Wing Drift?

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Liberal Party in charge in Australia, Conservative Party in Canada.

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And if so, why?

I don't think so. The United States has a president, who, for all that leftists dislike him, is probably the most left-wing President since the 1970s. In England, the Conservative majority will be smaller than the center-right Conservative-LD coalition that was in charge before, and my sense is that the massive swing from Scottish Labour to SNP is in no way a move to the right. In Canada, NDP just took over one of the most conservative provinces in the country, and Liberals are polling way better than they were back in 2011 when Harper won his current majority; I don't think people are projecting he'll keep that majority in the upcoming election. I don't know much about Australia or France.

I don't think so either. Bibi's coalition not likely to last long, US drifting towards the left afaict. Europe's rightward drift seems largely driven by xenophobia (always with the petty regionalism/nationalism over there) which is sad to watch.

I don't think Canada is more right-wing that it was 10 or 20 years ago. It's just that the more left-leaning vote is split between two parties. Also the Liberals have had terrible leadership in the last decade or so.

The conservatives have been pretty good at keeping everyone together and keeping internal dissent to a minimum.

based on comments in this thread obv the answer is "hell yes"

XP xenophobia of Scots towards the english, maybe

other answer is "because the further right we go the further right people think of as 'left wing'"

Renzi's performance in the Euro elections seemed significant. Huge victory for pro-austerity leader who was thought to be much more divisive. It's mostly fiscal conservatism on the rise in Europe. Despite the growth of the far right the mainstream tends to be more socially liberal I think.

dont forget Greece lol

I guess if you look at the actual governments in place, they are more right-wing, but that feels more like the left not getting their shit together rather than the actual people being more conservative. I don't know. We probably don't have the best systems for electing governments.

XP xenophobia of Scots towards the english, maybe

You're making the assumption that people who vote SNP are nationalists... for a start.

just playing with the yanks tom

Suspected as much, but I remember them having difficulty understanding the concept to left wing nationalists during the referendum, bless 'em.

concept of

theyre some craic hey

The United States has a president, who, for all that leftists dislike him, is probably the most left-wing President since the 1970s

lol, picked that decade due to that anarchist Jimmy Carter? (who ruled out reparations to Vietnam because "the destruction was mutual")

the last liberal POTUS was a man named Lyndon Johnson.

both houses of congress and most of the state houses in the u.s. are controlled by a class of republicans who are probably the most right-wing major faction in america since the southern democrats of the antebellum era. i think the u.s. actually is drifting to the left in a lot of ways, but it's not always perceptible in our elections.

it seems hard to dispute that obama's the most progressive president since johnson, his foreign policy's certainly better.

yeah idk if electorates are drifting right as much as right-wing oligarchs are just tightening their reigns of power

xp

xp

well that's a high raw body count to match even when you bomb 7 Muslim countries

and have prosecuted more whistleblowers than all the other presidents in history

and

"progressive" sure is a versatile word is all im sayin'

I don't think Canada is more right-wing that it was 10 or 20 years ago. It's just that the more left-leaning vote is split between two parties.

Why do people always say this? The NDP has been around since 1961; before it, the CCF was winning seats in federal elections since 1935. The Liberals still managed to thoroughly dominate Canada in the 20th century, even with a single 'united' PC or Conservative party until the 90s.

In terms of economic policy, I still think the Liberals of the 90s were at least as right-wing as any other post-war federal government. I actually feel like the mood is shifting left these days (which the AB election demonstrates).

I specified "10 or 20 years" specifically because I didn't really follow politics before that. I think the fact that there were multiple right-wing parties in the 90s is a pretty significant reason as to why the Liberals were able to win elections with such large majorities back then.

Here in Quebec it definitely feels like we have shifted to the right. Every successive Liberal leader has been more right-wing than his predecessor.

The West is definitely rightward leaning. The US left is more or less non-existent, beholden to the same corporate interests as the right. They dangle civil rights issues like gay marriage as a carrot to voters, because they know without those issues, nothing much separates their war-and-banks-driven governmental style from the right's. The hope that Obama will close gitmo is certainly worth more monetarily than him actually closing it down.

The question is: is this a recent development or a general tendency of US representative democracy? I suppose it began as representing mainly the interests of those who could legally vote (white male landowners/oligarchs), which you could say is a rightward position. Since then women have been granted the vote and minorities as well, but is their vote worth the same as the oligarchs that have always monopolized representation? No way in hell.

Perhaps in a way we have become more socially liberal, but the systems of control and oppression are working against that development in a way that greatly negates it. Corporate personhood imo continues to devalue "free speech" and the spits at the virtue of representative democracy.

Going by Wiki numbers, the combined popular vote of the Reform and PC parties was still less than the Liberals' share of the popular vote in the 93 and 97 elections. The combined total of the Alliance's and PCs' share of the popular vote in 2000 was just under the Liberals' share and was well under the combined total of the Liberals and NDP. (I also doubt that all PC voters would have chosen the Alliance over the Liberals if they had to choose. Clark himself preferred the Liberals.) King's, St. Laurent's, Pearson's, and Pierre Trudeau's Liberals all managed to win elections (after elections) despite facing left-wing competition.

I get resentful about 'vote-splitting' arguments for a few reasons but especially because I feel that they are usually made by Liberals to unfairly marginalize/minimize/accuse any progressive alternative.

The Liberals lost in 2006 because they were corrupt, arrogant, and entitled. They haven't managed to convince the voting public since then.

for the record, I agree with you re: vote-splitting. I don't want any kind of NDP/Liberals merger and will most likely vote NDP in the next election.

Still, I think it's difficult to argue that the Conservatives being the only viable party right of center doesn't benefit them enormously, allowing them to form majority governments despite not being able to get beyond 40% support.

The real problem is a lack of any kind of proportional representation.

I don't have the nuanced take on what is left wing, probably a bit dated & old fashioned. Indiscriminately killing civilians with drones and police does throw up some red flags though

most nuanced take

It is all shifted right in the context of most other Western countries.

it seems hard to dispute that obama's the most progressive president since johnson

Obama Lashes Out at Liberal Foes of Pacific Trade Deal
By PETER BAKER 3:07 PM ET
At Nike headquarters in Oregon, the president lashed out at critics within his own party, accusing Democrats of deliberately distorting the impact of the trade agreement he is negotiating with Asia.

i didn't think it'd be terribly controversial to say that obama was more progressive than carter or clinton. but yes i'm aware that the guy isn't bernie sanders.

you are also aware some people never get tired of criticizing him

I don't think the left's popularity is waning. It's just that their appeal is becoming more selective.

http://i.imgur.com/OGFBhT3.jpg

Here in Quebec it definitely feels like we have shifted to the right. Every successive Liberal leader has been more right-wing than his predecessor.

― silverfish, Friday, May 8, 2015 2:20 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Not only that, but like in many places across the West, our de facto left wing party has slowly and steadily become right wing.

love the passive voice thread question

plz put the q in active voice for me

present progressive, not passive

de facto left wing party

Had sort of a hollow lol when I realized that this probably refers to the PQ.

h/t the donald trump thread

https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/_MxkTUjnGeBaoavzdNapdX_UqkI=/1600x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/4082854/Figure_7_.0.png

I'm not sure I understand what is meant by "shift in the percentage replying..." -- e.g. if 1000 respondents were surveyed from the United States in 1995 and 50 said "good or very good" then, does the chart mean that the number/1000 increased to 55 in 2014, or does it mean it increased to 150?

i.e. are we talking percent change or percentage point change?

the way i understand it, if in 1955 20% said army rule is good, and then in 2015 30% said so, there would be an increase of 10%? does that make sense?

btw i think the premise of this thread is true more than ever right now.

I don't think there's an overall rightward drift in the US. I do think there's a rightward drift on the right.

xp that makes sense, as long as that's what vox means

btw i think the premise of this thread is true more than ever right now.

― Mordy

I dunno. hard to say. to play devil's advocate:

likelihood is the United States will elect a democrat next year for the third election in a row.

Canada just voted out the conservatives in an election where the conservatives purposefully used wedge issues and stoked islamophobia as a vote-winning tactic.

The ruling party the conservative PP in Spain failed to return a majority in the election on Sunday.

I do think there's a rightward drift on the right.

^^^this

otoh france has moved so far to the right that the socialists had to throw their support behind the republicans to keep the national front out of power

I took this

time really feels right for someone to step up and make a name for themselves, seriously folks the door is open wide

to be a call for someone to be the next Thomas Matthew Crooks, only, you know, successful. (Side note: Elon Musk probably does not have Secret Service protection.)

STUDENT WALK OUT- OUTSIDE CITY HALL NOW:

High school students from all over LA have walked out of class and gathered in front of city hall to protest the president’s fascist agenda. SOLIDARITY WITH THE YOUTH! FUCK ICE! https://t.co/ReMNFI1Cu1 pic.twitter.com/cDQAQTjHO0

— People's City Council - Los Angeles (@PplsCityCouncil) February 4, 2025

This mid-November ep with Semler and Bessner I felt was a worthwhile summary https://parallaxviews.podbean.com/e/semler-bessner/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xl51pL6c40A
50 years of stagnation to look foward to? Is it really that bad?

cautious understatement tbh

I've lived through over 50 years of stagnation, death, defeat, despair, poverty, etc ...

still look 10 years younger than Yanis Varoufakis 😎

lol

Marine LePen found guilty of embezzling public funds (fictitious employment of assistants at the EU Parliament that were really working for the party) along with other members of the RN. Ineligibility sentence is pronounced and will be applied immediately. The length of the sentence will be announced in the next minutes: there's a little more than two years to the presidential election. LePen has already chosen to leave the building. History in the making.

5 year ban. Boom

I wonder if the events of the last two months are going to lead to some level of retreat from the populist edge across Europe. Early days but the reshaping looks consequential for Europe in particular

Also 2 years prison sentence - with a bracelet, not incarcerated, still a humiliation - 2 more on probation
So she can't run, incredible, RN is forced to go with Bardella. End of the dynasty ?

Good thing no right wing Europeanleader has ever returned to win election after a prison sentence.

🥴

Lawyering political problems won't end well. Nevertheless its good news.

Seems like they were guilty as hell but corruption goes with the territory.

Yeah my sister in law was a bit worried that this would backfire with FN types showing it as evidence that The System is stacked against Le Pen...which I'm sure they will, but I mean, they always find some way to spin whatever's happening, it's still a good move.

So far the messages of support include Trump, Orban, Bolsonaro, Russia, North Korea, Mélenchon (lol), and maybe my favorite, French PM said he was "troubled" (triple lol, he's still potentially facing the same allegations since the public prosecutor appealed against his recent acquittal).

Melenchon isn't 'supporting' Le Pen.

Here is the statement:

Communiqué de la France insoumise

Marine Le Pen et 8 élus du Rassemblement National ont été condamnés ce jour pour détournement de fonds publics. Leur condamnation est assortie d’une peine d’inéligibilité applicable immédiatement pour l’essentiel d’entre eux.

Nous notons que…

— Manuel Bompard (@mbompard) March 31, 2025

From the translation my read of it is that a court should not be used to get of the National Front. Fascism needs to be beaten by the people in elections or in the streets.

Democratic rather than technical means.

Which is essentially correct.

No, that's just a bit of rhetoric at the end. The important point is that they refuse, on point of principle, a judiciary decision that has no possibility of appeal.

The context for that aiui is that this particular law is one that no one ever got convicted for due to the accused appealing and having the financial resources to do so efficiently. It also only applies to the ineligibility for office, not her house arrest.

Maybe a court should be used for people who commit crimes tho. Otherwise would seem like we are saying fascists can commit crimes because they will claim prosecuting them is undemocratic, which seems maybe bad.

"Candidate for office" is not a protected class. It does not render one immune from prosecution for crimes (except in America).

I must I didn't know that Le Pen and her party used to trumpet that they weren't as corrupt as other, more mainstream, parties, that at least has taken a considerable hit.

mélenchon statement notes the seriousness of the crime, affirms that due process applies equally to everybody, then states that political parties, which are not the justice system, must have their victories in the ballot box. what's confusing?

Yeah it's just saying the reality for a political party is the battle goes on and they're still contesting elections.

Yes the democratic vs legalistic thing is a red herring, ideally they work together anyway - as in Brazil, where the fash were first voted out and are now rightfully being pursued via legal means.

The France Insurmise stance is not about not wanting Le Pen to be put on trial or condemned but rather an opposition to the specific law this happened under not allowing for a right to appeal

I was just picking on Naledi's statement that Melenchon supported Le Pen, just like Orban or North Korea. It got me to look for the statement and so that turned out to be bullshit, because Naledi's politics are centrist so ofc the far left and far right are the same in this poster's view.

Obviously crimes should be prosecuted. But it can also be true that courts and process can be used to suppress undesirable support. The stuff going on in Romania looks a bit like that xp

I wonder if the events of the last two months are going to lead to some level of retreat from the populist edge across Europe. Early days but the reshaping looks consequential for Europe in particular

Definitely looks to open the way a la Germany for more centrist parties to paint themselves as the true patriots and the far-right parties as stooges of Putin and Trump. (See also Canada, obviously.)

cant be any good news is what im hearing

Trump's tariff nonsense definitely seems to have banjaxed his popularity with the GB News coffin dodger fash crowd.

more centrist parties to paint themselves as the true patriots

Oh, badly.

cant be any good news is what im hearing

i do not care to know enough about music to know if that is a pun

The France Insurmise stance is not about not wanting Le Pen to be put on trial or condemned but rather an opposition to the specific law this happened under not allowing for a right to appeal

― a ZX spectrum is haunting Europe (Daniel_Rf), Tuesday, April 1, 2025 3:40 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

That's the whole debate now, but it's a populist debate that undermines the rule of law, and that's where Mélenchon's stance is ambiguous. She has the right to appeal, she has used it, and the appeal has been scheduled. Marine LePen did not get a special punitive treatment and there are plenty of cases where appeal does not suspend a sentence. We can argue over the court's reasoning, which is to say that allowing LePen to run in 2027 would undermine the basic tenets of the law and public confidence in democracy. Her involvement in the scheme was extremely clear, and they counted on impunity the whole time.

"a populist debate that undermines the rule of law"

I think its funny.

Yeah sorry nabozo, there is nothing inherently populist about taking issue with specific laws, if anything it's a technocratic concern. At any rate it's pretty dishonest to cast it as a message of support for Le Pen.

I don't find it funny. Also for whatever it's worth, I wouldn't say I'm a centrist, but I do expect most functioning governments to be either center-right or center-left (on paper, just don't have many examples), or some sort of coalition. Our system is a right-leaning permanent coalition for example, which still leaves space for left initiatives, many of which I have voted for. I am really not envious of pendulum systems where the left and the right spend their time cancelling and destroying each other's work. I tend to think that polarization goes with shitshow politics. And the polarization right now in many countries is not so much left-right but national populism versus the fractioned rest - and we all agree it's creating fractures and it's dangerous. I have met intelligent and stupid people from both left and right - it does not matter so much to me, in truth I am suspicious of people who have too strong leanings. As for the radical parties, I am happy to recognize they have a place, since they don't come out of nothing, and a sign of things unresolved, but a lot of them are simply unable to govern.

I wouldn't say you're a centrist either, have always struck me as rather right wing.

At any rate it's pretty dishonest to cast it as a message of support for Le Pen.
― a ZX spectrum is haunting Europe (Daniel_Rf), Wednesday, April 2, 2025 10:02 AM (nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Let's just say it was certainly not a message of support for the justice system.

"but I do expect most functioning governments to be either center-right or center-left (on paper, just don't have many examples), or some sort of coalition."

Hilarious position to be taking when centre-left and centre-right parties have been struggling to govern for the best part of the last decade.

I wouldn't say I'm a centrist

I have met intelligent and stupid people from both left and right - it does not matter so much to me, in truth I am suspicious of people who have too strong leanings.

Yes, those are two very different things tho? You can't just assume everyone shares your system where criticising power means you love Le Pen.

I wouldn't say you're a centrist either, have always struck me as rather right wing.

― a ZX spectrum is haunting Europe (Daniel_Rf), Wednesday, 2 April 2025 bookmarkflaglink

Its what they tell themselves. They think they are being clever being above it all.

Love how much the centrist fellas respect the law when the last US 'centre left' government gave full unconditional support to another government headed by a man escaping prosecution for his own abuses, who was propped by a coalition which included far right parties, then proceeded to enable the genocide of a people, burning through the international law book in the process.

LOL @ Le Pen invoking Martin Luther King.

Right wingers love to try to jujitsu the "content of your character" part of the I Have A Dream speech to argue against affirmative action

Chega on track to overtake the socialist party as 2nd biggest party in the Portuguese elections rn :/

good results in Romania: https://www.politico.eu/article/romanian-presidential-election-results-nicusor-dan-george-simion/

Didn't expect that tbh, nor that the new guy would look so much like Noel Gallagher.