Do your principles get in the way of your enjoyment? Or does your enjoyment get in the way of your principles?

I never am unbearable because of my principals, except for my "Don't fuck up my towel rack" principal, that gets annoying...

Seriously...I don't eat at McDonald's for health reasons, not principal reasons, but to use a similar example, I won't go within 500 feet of Walmart due to my irritation towards their stances on certain political issues. If I know something is done via child labor, on that tip, I won't buy it, though in all honesty a lot of things made in certain countries are made via child labor and thusly I get annoyed at people who make a really big freakin' deal about certain lines (Nike, Kathie Lee's clothing) - you have to make the assumption that most imports are made with child labor (and a good deal of non-import stuff too).

Unfortunately, I don't think about stuff too much though to really be bothered. The only one I actively do anything about is the Walmart thing, which I've been against ever since I've heard of their sexist policies that caused them to pull a couple of "comedy" shirts in middle America for having pro-women cartoons on them. Otherwise I just don't care enough to check the labels and be really good about it. It certainly makes me an awful person if I think about it but I don't think about it.

My total lack of social concert would keep me awake at night, but you need social concern for that, right? It just makes me feel guilty before I go to sleep.

I tend not to enjoy the things that violate my principles. Or at least that's what I convince myself.

The more I think about 'issues' the more I realise that most of them are totally unresolvable, so I just bumble along trying to do as little damage as I possibly can.

Herehere!

We have a boycott list on our fridge. We buy local at all oppurnties . We barter . We call ourselves queer and refuse commitment cermonies and domestic partner packages. We do not drive We give money and voluenteer to a myriad of charitable causes .

That said we eat at Burger King , both belong to orthodox religous traditions , accept rides, buy things made in China, do not recycle everything and feel annoyed at panhandlers

I don't know, i try to be good ...

I just bought a cold green tea from a drinks machine right outside my house here in Tokyo. Normally I boycott the Coke machines because it's Coke (symbol of N-croachment, to which I say 'Yarbles!') and because, unlike all the other companies, Coca Cola Co. charge more for green tea than for Coke (normally green tea and sodas are 120 yen. Coke charges 120 yen for Coke and 150 for green tea). But I paid my 150 and gulped the cool, sugarless green tea with its small 'from Coca Cola' logo. And it tasted sooooo good!

I really wish we had cold green tea vending machines in New Zealand!

By the way, isn't that a perfect little guilty example of the American system at work? US companies like Kodak and Coca Cola kicked up a huge fuss about ten years ago (as did the US car companies) about Japan's tied-up, protected markets. Now they're in, they charge more for the local product (green tea) than for their soda.

Let's hope they never put the Japanese drinks companies out of business. On that day there would just be these Coke machines on every street, and whether green tea continues to be sold at all in Japan would be up to an American company.

Coca Cola Co. (who no longer put cocaine in Coke to make it more addictive, as they once did and would no doubt do again at the drop of a hat if allowed) can argue that Japanese green tea makers can sell green tea freely in the US, but who in the US would buy it? Japan never dropped nuclear bombs on the US and sent in some General to restructure American business on the Japanese model. If Japan made a movie about Hiroshima, would American cinema chains book it? Yet Hollywood releases 'Pearl Harbour' in Japan.

This week they put Pocky on the 7-11 shelves . This is a japanese product now availble in multi nationals instead of ethinic food shoops. Where i sought it obsessivly. Is this realvent ?

Can you buy Japanese rice in the states? I know here you can't. They will sell American instead.

I am principled until it ruins my appetite.

'Pearl Harbor' was resold to the japanese as a (western) love story - but according to one of the most staunchiest cultural critics - 'this movie is so ridiculous and stupid, it presents no threat [to the Japanese Culture]' - - again, Western culture shooting blanks at other cultures - when will it learn?

That is a really good point Jason.

Mmmmm, iced green tea in a can. Totally necessary yesterday, I wish they had vending machines. Those of you with access to Muji can buy this for 65p...is that cheaper than in Japan? Oh and Nicholas, cocaine was a standard ingredient in the soft drinks, medicines, etc. of many manufacturers, not just Coca-Cola, until the FDA reclassified it early in C20. I don't drink soft drinks unless it's that acid-sweet lychee stuff you can get in corner shops...

Seriously, though, unless the craving for Filet O Fish strikes, I am never in McDonalds (the McLibel people had their office in my block of flats) and I really dislike Starbucks and most 'chain food' (my bete noire is Yo! Sushi for crimes against tuna, which they puree for hand rolls...gross). I put this down to gastropickiness first, principles second. I try to avoid Nestle too but that's difficult when they keep buying up all the chocolate brands I like.

What's really rankling is when something that has 'soundness' built into its image turns out to be skanky or shifty. In writing for newspapers, everyone wants to write for the Guardian here (and I have, but not for a year or so) but I don't think their office politics are great. I've submitted proposals only to find concrete evidence that they've been passed on to AN Other writer by the commissioning editor, even down to my sentences being 'sampled' by that writer (this is a rather common gripe). Make a direct complaint, and the editors will blackball you forever. When I wrote for the Times that NEVER happened, they paid much better and it's the one owned by the union-busting schmuck. So go figure. I still read the Graniaud above all others.

Clothes: I haven't actually owned a pair of sneakers since I was 15, and THOSE were Fred Perry. I'd just never buy Nike, full stop, and it rankles that cool Japanese fashion designers are consulting for them (Comme? Yohji? Junya Watanabe? Can't remember which, but it's one of them). Would never wear Versace, it's vulgar Mafiawear.

So, yeah, I have principles as a consumer but I don't make a hyooge song and dance about them.

I don't eat meat, which is a vaguely principled stance, somewhat undermined by my cod fixation contributing to the plunder of our oceans (mm... fillet o fish - or is it filet - what's with that stupid pronunciation?). Part of the reason I don't have a car is ethical. I boycott Nestle and Muller rice BUT NOTHING ELSE. My approach to ethical consumerism is haphazard.

As for the broader question of principles. I don't know - I'm generally buy into the whole idea of social concern, but make a point of teasing friends who are more committed than I am. I'm one of those people who feel like they don't really do anything much wrong, but don't actively do good either. I'm not part of the solution, so I guess I'm part of the problem.

My cousin who is a lawyer says he makes a lot of money out of people's principles. So you over-principled people are inadvertently lining the pockets of him and his ilk. I do not go to All Bar One but that's about it.

Rowntrees being taken over by Nestle was a disaster. Liberal quaker firm with a long tradition of funding social programs swallowed up by evil multinational with suspect baby milk policies. Bah.

When I was working at a magazine for black girls they had a Nestle conurbation filled with Nescafe products, hot water, etc. for the office tea and coffee. The girl in charge of dealing with it was from a Ghanaian family; we'd lift up the pods of creamer that came with it asking, 'so this is what they feed the babies in Africa?'

I didn't eat South African fruit until Nelson Mandela was released. I don't buy coffee from chain coffee shops and I will never drink Sunny Delight (although I can't imagine there's any enjoyment in drinking Sunny D for this particular principle to get in the way of)

Nick: a friend who used to work at McDonalds pronounced it feelay.

Coca Cola Co. (who no longer put cocaine in Coke to make it more addictive, as they once did and would no doubt do again at the drop of a hat if allowed)

Was this meant to be a shocking fact? Most companies did FROWNED UPON THINGS back in the day. Doctors gave pregnant women speed in the 60s to control their gain while pregnant. Sit down boys! Anyhow, if Coke would start doing that again, I'd immediately start drinking it. As it is, I hate soda. Anyhow...

can argue that Japanese green tea makers can sell green tea freely in the US, but who in the US would buy it?

Um, loads of people? I have two things of it in my house. They sell iced green tea in every single supermarket and convenience store and bodega I've ever been in.

How come all these Principles are about buying or not buying certain things? Surely some principles have nothing to do with purchasing goods, or refraining from this act.

Of course. Momus's original question about Monoculture focused on consumer products, so that was my starting point. You might find it interesting that no one directly answered this part of my question: "Do you even see individual consumer choice as being relevent to today's injustices, and that there are more effective ways of curing them (ie, legislation, mass boycotts)?".

1)Legislating against products = bad. Unnecessary use of force. Unless, of course, it's something that's hurting or killing people who are not aware (cocaine in coke, tapeworms in diet pills, that sort of thing).

2) Mass boycotts are made up of individual people. You can't have one without individual decisions. Not all individual decisions are mass boycotts, of course, but if it's the best you can do, do it!

My principles actually add to my enjoyment, I think. I have nothing against doing anything that would be considered fun to do. I only really have one principle that sounds remotely religious, but it doesn't restrict me from enjoying anything in life. It actually helps me to stop and see things through other people's eyes, which helps me look at the world as it really is, rather than taking things personally all the time. The principle I'm talking about is a bible quote (but I'm not christian, really). You know the one: "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". I respond to violence with violence if necessary because I feel that if they are doing it to me, they deserve it done to them. If people are fighting, it's because they want a fight. Violence breeds violence; it's a natural law, so who am I to say it's wrong? Sometimes the only way to learn not to argue with your fists is to get the shit beaten out of you. If people are just rude, I pretty much figure that their life sucks, for the moment at least, and they are being rude because they temporarily NEED to get their way. I'll usually ignore them or say something like, "One of those days, huh?" Just saying this makes someone stop and think. If someone is rude in a way that's really out of line, I feel free to give it back to them because it seems to me that these people are so upset that they are out of control and being a rude fuck is almost like begging to be put in place.

This one principle works so well, in fact, I think it's the only one you really need to stay balanced. It really helps you reserve judgement if, as soon as you think, "Oh, what a scumbag", a little voice pops up and says, "What are you basing that on? Would you like it if you were judged on sight?" This is the very line of reasoning that makes me not take things personally. If I can't control snap judgements popping up in my head, why should I worry about other people's snap judgements of me? A brain functions like a drunken monkey, right? From one thing to the next? Why shouldn't it come to conclusions automatically based on previously learned ideas? A person that hates me one day could easily be very impressed by me some other day depending on this his personal experiences. Tough guys becomes sensitive. Sensitive guys become calloused. Today's punk rocker is tomorrow's banker. Anyway, that's my big philosophy. I don't see what this really topic had to do with the whole aryan mess, though. Was that discussion based on principles?

I forgot: as far as the whole political activist thing: nope. The only justification I have for this is that most things are ineffective and also useless. For instance, boycotting Nike is useless. The shoes made at payless also use what is basically slave labor. Boycotting McDonald's might make sense for health reasons, but, unless your only going to buy the super-expensive organically grown vegetables, it doesn't really matter. All meat is murder, McDonald's or otherwise. If you're a vegetarian and not buying organic produce, the conditions are just as outrageous for chemically grown produce as hormone-injected beef. Destruction of valuable soil due to greedy farming methods & pumping the earth with chemicals to grow food in nutrient- deficient soil which poison the people who eat it? Wearing plastic shoes that pollute the environment vs. leather shoes which kill cows that are killed anyway? I find it hard to be principled about anything political because the power is so out of my hands there is little I can do to change these things. I just figure people have to learn from their mistakes.

That last post was quite depressing. I am going to go live in the woods and be a hermit, taking nothing but rocks to make a fire and a sharp knife forged by dwarves whose methods I have approved as being environmentally safe.

That got a little sarcastic there at the end, but up to "sharp knife" I was almost serious, and up to "hermit" I was.

Nude Spock, you're right that boycotting things for political reasons is hopeless. Let's not tell that to those colored folks down in Birmingham, however. I hear they're planning a boycott of the buses since some old lady wouldn't give up her seat and got hauled off to jail. It's something they need to learn for themselves and they probably wouldn't listen to us anyway.

I do not boycott any products on principle. I rarely give money to beggars/Big Issue vendors etc. This is mainly down to laziness on my part.

I do have a reasonably strong conscience though. For instance, this week I was overpaid at work and could have easily taken the money, but I did not.

Well, chzza, that sounds like an incident where the power isn't far removed from a person's hands. Nike or McDonald's headquarters is. The FDA is. Poor farming is. A busline is based on a community with direct participants. Of course, the busline could easily ignore the boycott. Eventually, the boycott will end, I'm sure. But, whatever. I'm not saying for everyone to follow my apathetic example. I'm just saying I'm not principled for political reasons.

btw, in case you hadn't heard, you shouldn't be buying mobile phones either, if you don't want to f uel bloody war in Congo. Luckily, I was given mine by a gullible market research company.