BDS - classic or dud?

new Mordy answers!

dud

What sort of divestment effort would NOT be dud, i.e. what are they doing wrong?

I'm reading this article from everyone's favorite cranky expat, which claims people have been arrested in France for wearing BDS shirts:
https://theintercept.com/2016/05/13/interview-with-bds-advocate-omar-barghouti-banned-by-israel-from-traveling-threatened-with-worse/

as you guessed i have a lot i could say on this topic and if need be i will but as of right now i'm not jonesing for a long argument about BDS. have you seen norman finkelstein on the topic? https://vimeo.com/36854424

One of the main sources of my mistrust of it is one of the three stated "goals" of the movement:

Ending [Israel's] occupation and colonization of all Arab lands and dismantling the Wall

I don't know what "occupation and colonization of all Arab lands" means -- a return to the 67 borders, or no Jewish state at all? I wouldn't parse the statement so much except that within the movement there is a lot of rhetoric suggesting the latter. And it would be so easy to just state a clearer goal, that the lack of clarity is suspect to me. Also what are "Arab lands"? Is a historically Jewish village within the occupied territories "Arab lands"? And what is this ethnic land concept that applies to the middle east but not to Europe or the US? (tbf you could easily level the same complaint at the idea of a Jewish state). But the goals don't say "a binational state with equal rights for Jews and Arabs."

good timing from david hirsh:
https://engageonline.wordpress.com/2016/06/01/why-bds-is-antisemitic-david-hirsh/

"And what is this ethnic land concept that applies to the middle east but not to Europe or the US? (tbf you could easily level the same complaint at the idea of a Jewish state)."

Right, but that complaint would be like #allethnicitiesmatter. A Jewish state is a special case because of historical and continuing violence against Jews in the diaspora.

There are some good arguments in Mordy's link but I am hesitant to term the entire movement "antisemitic" because there are legitimate reasons to put international political pressure on Israel that have nothing to do with antisemitism. Also, "antisemitic" risks becoming a flattening term that reduces any animosity toward Jews to being part of a single, eternal force in the world. I don't think animosity toward Jews in the Arab world, for example, is equivalent to animosity toward Jews in Nazi Germany, and it feels like a cop-out to treat it all as the same thing.

What I do think, however, is that BDS is a nationalist movement disguised as a universalist movement.

http://www.factmag.com/2015/06/26/thurston-moore-releases-statement-about-cancelled-tel-aviv-show-and-support-for-israel-boycott/

I supported the boycott, then I booked a show, then I thought about it, then I cancelled it

@ggreenwald
Democrats wage a massive war on free speech & free assembly rights in order to protect Israel from criticism

New York Governor Andrew Cuomo on Sunday signed an executive order that orders state agencies to divest themselves of companies and organizations who support the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement against the state of Israel....

The executive order – the first such signed by a governor – will command the commissioner of the Office of General Services to compile a list over the next six months of businesses and groups engaged in “boycott, divestment or sanctions activity targeting Israel, either directly or through a parent or subsidiary.”

...Senator Chuck Schumer, speaking to reporters at an unrelated press conference on Sunday, said he would seek to introduce the same idea to fight BDS on a federal level. “I think what the governor has done is an excellent idea,” Schumer told reporters. “I think that the state (of New York) should not do any business with any company that participates in BDS, and I am looking at introducing a federal law to do the same thing. BDS is a movement that is just totally unfair to Israel. They hold Israel to one standard and hold the other countries, including those who are sworn enemies to Israel, to another standard.”

http://jewishinsider.com/8277/cuomo-signs-executive-order-to-fight-bds/

Ok, I think that executive order is dumb as shit, but it's also dumb as shit to say it's a "war on free speech & free assembly rights."

I'm not even sure where to begin with that argument, because I don't see even an iota of free speech or free assembly implications in an order deciding what state government pension funds can be invested in. It's done all the time for all kinds of reasons, including political.

Like do you understand that this is literally exactly the goal that BDS is trying to achieve but in the opposite direction? You know the "D" is for "divestment" right?

The argument would be that divestment from a foreign state shouldn't trigger retaliatory divestment from American businesses without a much more compelling case. The approach the UK government has taken is to say that state-funded organisations can't unilaterally decide to stop trading with any foreign country. That's different from effectively saying that to maintain a good relationship with the government private business must be open to trading specifically with Israel.

Whether it's justifiable or not, i'd have thought there's a reasonable risk of it getting struck down in court, which would probably be a much more significant 'win' for the BDS side than a handful of business taking a political stance.

I can give you lots of arguments why Cuomo shouldn't have signed the order, I just can't find anything unconstitutional about it.

presumably orgs might be intimidated into rethinking their stand on BDS bcz of the NYS policy.

that is if there was any point to this other than pandering by Prince Andy and Schmucko.

pandering is my guess

Andy said BDS is "in some ways" worse than Hamas

such a pig

D is the most ineffective cause someone else will just buy the shares

Greenwald holds forth:

Cuomo’s Executive Order requires that one of his Commissioners compile “a list of institutions and companies” which – “either directly or through a parent or subsidiary” – support a boycott. That government list is then posted publicly, and the burden falls on them to prove to the state that they do not, in fact, support such a boycott. Donna Lieberman, Executive Director of the New York Civil Liberties Union, told The Intercept: “Whenever the government creates a blacklist based on political views it raises serious First Amendment concerns and this is no exception.” Reason‘s Robby Soave denounced it today as “brazenly autocratic.”

https://theintercept.com/2016/06/06/andrew-cuomo-and-other-democrats-launch-severe-attack-on-free-speech-to-protect-israel/

This is interesting:

http://www.timesofisrael.com/for-sodastream-chief-frustration-with-netanyahus-politics-of-hate-bubbles-over/

http://jewdas.org/answering-critics-of-the-boycott-movement/

i think this is a good summary of the case for bds

"boycott is dialogue" is pretty orwellian.

Thought this thread was going to be about "Boogie Down Seductions", KRS-One's new romantic rap experience with champagne for two.

"So, your a philosopher?"
"Yes. Yes. Why don't you come upstairs and I'll show you my manuscripts."

it's a good thing bds doesn't believe in consistency
http://forward.com/news/world/346969/one-in-six-us-drugs-will-soon-be-made-in-israel/

Netanyahu is a real piece of work

Really cool that he sang along with that dude at that coffee shop though.

have no idea what u guys are responding to but trying to google it turned up this gem

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa3ad6Kzg7I

Not sure if this is exactly the right thread, but this is pretty good:

https://mitchellplitnick.com/2016/08/07/on-the-platform-by-the-movement-for-black-lives/

My takeaway from it is: whatever issues you may have with BLM taking up BDS as part of its platform, (1) it's a pretty small part of a really broad platform and (2) it's not worth throwing an otherwise great platform over the side of the boat.

Although, at the same time, I think it is a mistake for BLM to take up the issue and it reminds me of all the campus activist groups endlessly diluting themselves and their messages through vague "solidarity" with every other cause.

i'm not terribly outraged about BDS trying to co-opt BLM, i just think it's kinda creepy that they have to make every movement about them even when the link is so tenuous as to be non-existent

http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/210698/why-anti-israel-activists-in-black-lives-matter-are-trying-to-turn-genocide-on-the-jews

https://engageonline.wordpress.com/2016/08/28/ilan-pappe-admits-that-bds-was-not-initiated-by-a-call-from-palestinian-civil-society/

@ggreenwald
Remember: To Israel, violent resistance to Israeli occupation is terrorism. And so is non-violent resistance

The minister claimed that while “criticism of Israel is legitimate”, criticism “that attempts to undermine Israel’s right to exist is illegitimate.”

Therefore, Shaked said: “The BDS is illegitimate. I define it thus: BDS is another branch of terrorism in the modern age.”

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20160919-israeli-justice-minister-bds-is-the-new-face-of-terrorism/

Shaked is married and has two children and lives in Bavli, Tel Aviv. Her husband is a fighter-pilot in the Israeli Air Force.[4] She admires biographies of Steve Jobs, as well as the works of Ayn Rand, in particular The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged.[27]

Shaked is horrible and BDS is still dud

remember folks, when you try to undermine a state's right to exist, that state will consider your actions illegitimate whether or not they're violent. shockingly non-violent attempts to destroy a state are not fondly looked upon by the state in question.

greenwald all "even very basic obvious deductions are hard for me to grasp" - sycophant morbz v impressed w/ stunning display of intellectual mediocrity

"when you try to undermine a state's right to exist"

nice strawman

u say strawman, i say read what bds proponents and the bds platform has to say.

ICYMI

https://theintercept.com/2017/07/19/u-s-lawmakers-seek-to-criminally-outlaw-support-for-boycott-campaign-against-israel/

um i think the whole point of the first amendment is that the govt doesn't have a right to fight back. https://t.co/xSxGoO2JKO

— Adam H. Johnson (@adamjohnsonNYC) July 20, 2017

massive fines on any home that doesn't contain a sodastream

sodastream build quality has gone way down btw
our first one lasted ages, now they're like toaster ovens used to be, plan to buy one every 16 months or so

BREAKING: We filed a lawsuit challenging a Kansas law targeting boycotts of Israel, in violation of the 1st Amendment. https://t.co/HfqU1Kd3vW

— ACLU (@ACLU) October 11, 2017

Alice Walker irks UMich donor

https://peuplesmonde.net/2015/02/08/alice-walker-disinvited-from-university-of-michigan-over-israel-comments/

Disgraceful.

for some reason that's been popular on twitter today but it is from feb 2015

smh didn't even notice

well me neither

fortunately not covered b4 birth of the thread

I did not realise that Reebok is now the main sponsor of the Israeli football association, which includes teams based in illegal settlements