emotional numbness

so, who here experiences this, either during tragedies, or just at random points of the week?

I'm not a crier, but there's no consistency when my emotions just let loose. I attribute it to repression. when I was 11, my grandpa died and I was devastated, my first major tragedy. I was so upset at his viewing that I told my mom to take him home cos I couldn't bear the funeral. I moped for about 2-3 months. My great-grandmother died the next year, and I was like a stone....only 12 years old, and feeling nothing (I finally cried during her funeral, not during the viewing, but because I read a really touching sermon in a book in a side room).

I feel like smaller sad things, like a friend moving away, or the time my mom was stuck in an ice storm and I finally got the call that she was ok. my psyche lets me experience that in full and deal with, but once death is involved, it swoops in to stop me from processing...sometimes. even this week, w/ all that happened in my hometown, I've had to cry it out in small waves....usually at unrelated things that just trigger it.

that leads to a fuck ton of guilt, even though I remind myself that everybody grieves differently and I always strive to do what I can to help out no matter what I'm feeling on the inside.

anybody else have this issue...if so, how do you/did you deal? I can't imagine this kind of repression is good and probably is what causes anxiety...but it is something I've always wondered because often few people I know fess up to this.

*take ME home (I'm not that macabre)

that was actually my favorite part. but i'm dead inside.

man, when you are a kid all bets are off. you don't have to act any which way when you are a kid. it's all too much back then.

death does take some getting used to. you're never gonna do it just right. also, you might just be really good at processing it now and not repressing anything at all. doctors are good at that. maybe you should become a doctor.

you don't need to feel guilty about anything though.

true. good perspective. thanks.

i kinda feel like my job is to be the shoulder to cry on which is a role I'll gladly play for anybody (lots of friends suffering this year, and that was before last weekend's tragedy - 2016 has been fuuuucked).

we all want to feel like we are reacting to things in the proper way and acting appropriately, but life isn't really like that. it throws things at us kinda chaotically, and you just have to do the best that you can. being a shoulder to cry on is a righteous thing to be as long as you have people you can talk to about how you feel about everything.

I've had my long term bout with emotional numbness, back when my daughter was a young child. There were about five years there where medical crises were so frequent that there was never any safe moment to stop and feel all the overwhelming feelings associated with those many crises.

At first I self-medicated with hard liquor, but that was much too hard on my health and only minimally effective. What finally worked was some counseling, plus figuring out what a vast reservoir of grief I needed to spill out, so I began to schedule time for breaking down and just wailing and sobbing my heart out. God knows how many hours I eventually put into that kind of emotional relief. A few hundred, at the very least. But eventually that hollow place in the center of my chest began to feel alive again.

Given that its been 30 years now of off-and-on crises around my daughter's care, I have a pretty complete toolset for meeting the needs of the moment. The major fact of my life is that both my wife and I, although we are able to cope with new problems as they arise, are very quickly emotionally spent and it takes a lot of recuperating to get back to feeling 'normal' again when the latest crisis is over.

I think you've kinda hit at something with "scheduling time" for breaking down. I did that the last few days and it helped a lot. probably need to do tomorrow.

yet underneath this 'numbness' is so much rage. 5-6 years ago I had found my chill spot, and today I feel like i'm the angriest I've been in my life and I *hate* it. I also became so much more defensive - where I used to not be so afraid to admit when I fucked up.

off topic tho - thanks for replying, been interesting to see other perspectives here.

I want to chat briefly about this text that I received from a friend last week: pic.twitter.com/cfwYx3tJQB

— Melissa A. Fabello, PhD (@fyeahmfabello) November 18, 2019

lol

way too long

Read the first few, mentally mumbled 'ok zoomer' to myself, moved on.

sorry i should've asked first, sorry, i'm sorry

it's ok

you say that, but

some of the scathing responses to that thread are very satisfying to read

The one person I know who routinely makes statements such as 'I'm good at emotional processing AND logical problem-solving' is in fact stellar at the latter and horrendous at the former.

All of our emotional availability is occupied at this time. Please try again later.

"Not followed by anyone you're following"

That is such a relief sometimes

way too long

otm. then again, this is a person with a PhD whose ability to be concise was quite obviously destroyed by the process of writing her dissertation.

I initially parsed that as 'PhD in Jurassic Studies'.

it was cute in that she could've and should've used the quote being discussed as a warning to the Twitter audience. it was a real Mobius strip.

It's overly-formal/-prescriptive but I otherwise don't see the problem with the underlying sentiment tbh (aside from the fact that the onus of checking in wrt these kinds of communications is ideally on both parties). You aren't going to do a lick of good to a person in crisis if you aren't in a place to hear them. But then also if you're never in a place to hear them, you're less likely over time to be approached on that level/at all.

I agree and thank you for your brevity

'I'm almost never in the right state of mind when I receive a flurry of panicked texts out of the blue.'

Assuming said texter is a close friend whose (real) predicament you know well, fuck your state of mind.

She does have a point, and it sounds like she's leaned on for emotional support a lot more than I am. I just like the rejection template at the end.

Referring to listening to a friend for a few minutes as “emotional labour” is a nightmarishly transactional way to view human relations

she should have her phone set to send that anytime sometime texts a certain amount over a few minutes. Just really make sure not to leave a friend in the lurch.

trigger a conference call with a crisis counselor and automatically hang up

I'm an ideas man

Like the term “emotional labour” has a meaning and it isn’t this, also sleeping with your partner isn’t “sex work”

nightmarishly transactional way to view human relations

aye

xp lol that ship has sailed my friend

Referring to listening to a friend for a few minutes as “emotional labour” is a nightmarishly transactional way to view human relations

― YouGov to see it (wins), Tuesday, November 19, 2019 11:39 AM (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

yes, emotional labour originally referred to, you know, labour. things which are part of a job. people who extend it into the realm of relationships with friends and family are for the watching imo

Like I have a fairly high capacity wrt dealing with other people in crisis but a) I wouldn't assume that to be the case for others and b) I don't have the greatest history of emotional self-care and have tended to inadvisably take on more than I can handle in that regard. A set of loose guidelines are handy for the sake of boundary maintenance when and if boundaries need to be maintained.

Doing a self care by refusing to treat my besties like people until they pay the toll

Eff a transactional 'relationship'. That has nothing to do with what I'm talking about, at the very least.

(I've long referred to that shit as 'asshole tax' myself.)

just another example of the consumer transaction replicating itself in every possible space, like a virus. this is such a disturbing thread

— bot (@gundwyn) November 19, 2019

This is my perspective on that tweet j posted, essentially

Reading the other responses here—pleased that most of yall feel the same way.

Twitter really is the worst though

yes, emotional labour originally referred to, you know, labour. things which are part of a job. people who extend it into the realm of relationships with friends and family are for the watching imo

― -_- (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 19:51 (forty minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

didn't see too many tackling it around here when it took hold tbh

took hold of whom?

Y'all are gonna have to point out the transactional part of this mess for my dumb ass because I'm p allergic to those kinds of expectations and I'm not seeing it here.

Omfg if I would need to request permission, I’d prob just send a text: u & i r done. Byeee.

Seriously, I could (not really) understand if it’s a face to face chat or a phone call. But via text? Ffs.

yes, emotional labour originally referred to, you know, labour. things which are part of a job. people who extend it into the realm of relationships with friends and family are for the watching imo

― -_- (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 19:51 (forty minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

didn't see too many tackling it around here when it took hold tbh

― deems of internment (darraghmac), Tuesday, November 19, 2019 12:35 PM (twelve minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

well i just did, and have in the past.

sorry poch has me rattled on topic tbh

i assume the next logical development is "hey, could i vent to you?" "sure, please venmo me $20."

generally i think checking in with your friends before emotionally unloading on them is a good practice

the rationalization of it in that tweet thread is fuckin excruciating though

good god

ll, map, marcos otm

That whole twitter thread just reminds me of the David Foster Wallace story "The Depressed Person."

or the contractual language

even if every relationship and every interaction can be negotiated, preemptively embracing the language of bargaining and disclosure and liability limitation with full rational explicitness is basically demanding that your eventual negotiating position be granted at the outset, as a hard condition on appropriate interaction, before any such understandings are developed in the normal course of things if and when needed, as if you see no other way of entrusting yourself to the relationship or of making your needs and concerns known to others, those supposed 'friends'

the issue is that language that makes it sound like a sewage flow rate problem raises the suspicion that the person relates to their own emotions, and to others via emotions, in a fundamentally alienated way—not that the language can't describe the realities in a relatively accurate way

― j., Wednesday, November 20, 2019 3:27 PM (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

i think of it as the opposite? if i'm thinking of my ability on a given day to have an intense conversation about an emotionally volatile topic with a friend is not possible because i am feeling "at capacity" then it is more likely i am not alienated from my emotions. being alienated from my emotions would perhaps entail taking on too much shit than i can handle just because "people need me"

you're too healthy tho

i think what we are talking about here is "consent to unload" and if you are against consent, in whatever form it may take (using the tweeter's language or other less antiseptic words), maybe stop and ask yourself why or what this means?

in my friendship world, maintaining a close friendship/being a bestie doesn't require being available 24/7 for someone's emotional offloading needs. it's nice to ask if a person has time to talk/it's liberating to get the consent of your friend to talk if you need to talk.

idk what else to say.

"consent to vent"
lol

lecheras freundschaftwelt

yeah brad and map otm.

I am kind of thinking about that recent piece in lifehacker about how people need to feel out or agree on the framing of a conversation first in order for it to be productive. I was having that issue with a couple of friends that just wanted to vent (so much drama every single time) and would get upset if I started to give advice or I thought we were meeting to shoot the shit and I would end up getting overwhelmed by an avalanche of problems and grievances. I want to be helpful but I also get weary of people purposefully being emotionally manipulative to obtain things (this is rarer but it happens and I alway have to try to keep things shallower with these friends).

https://lifehacker.com/the-biggest-mistake-you-can-make-in-any-conversation-1839864717

oh and also that tweet showed up on the 'making white dudes type paragraphs' fb today since it was in the spirit.

i don't know j, i don't see her stance that way at all? weird that some of you see her position as excessively rational, contractual, a negotiation. i.... see it as emotionally connected and aware of others and what they might be going through? like we are all struggling with many things, some of which are traumatic, debilitating, some of which are connected to larger forces of structural oppression that can make those struggles seem even more insurmountable and crushing, and most people i know are dealing with shit like this. all she is saying is that in the midst of that she appreciates a friend saying "hey im struggling, can you hear me out?" -- AND she explicitly mentions this friend does NOT need to do that! that she is a close enough friend who *doesn't* need to ask permission, but the fact that this person is a close friend means that the friend is *aware* enough of whatever bullshit the other person might be going through that she checks in with her before venting. it seems emotionally sensitive and respectful to me, idk!

xps to j

like we are all struggling with many things, some of which are traumatic, debilitating, some of which are connected to larger forces of structural oppression that can make those struggles seem even more insurmountable and crushing, and most people i know are dealing with shit like this.

yeah, and I think because of this, the personal is political framework, people will look to language dealing with the structural forces, the political issues, and incorporate that language in their personal relationships. Like, isn't it pretty standard sociologically to try to use language that the other person/people will understand? If both you and your friend(s) regularly use these terms in other contexts -- e.g. social justice discussions, etc. -- then maybe this is the dynamic here?

When you are vulnerable, it is often really fucking hard to communicate in general. Also, you may feel like your personal worth is low, like, it is more comfortable using these more transactional terms because you don't feel you intrinsically "deserve" time, energy, etc. from other people.

This also ties into something I've noticed here, as well as irl, and is part of the "triggering" trend ... the issue of bringing up personal problems with a friend for whom those problems might bring up issues of their own (the trauma thing). ... I don't remember people really discussing this, or thinking about this that deeply, except in the case of stuff like, idk, death or if it involves a specific person (like an ex). It was up to the "listening friend" to deal with it, or to try to be polite about it. Me, personally, I feel like I can deal with just about anything tbh and if it's "triggering" then the help that I am providing my friend and the positive feelings of trust and intimacy make up for the feelings of pain. However, it would be insensitive for me to expect everyone else is the same way, because they aren't.

*ties into something I feel like this a fairly recent development in terms of communication and manners

if you are against consent, in whatever form it may take (using the tweeter's language or other less antiseptic words), maybe stop and ask yourself why or what this means?

literally nobody is objecting to the notion of asking if it's ok to vent

yes sarahell!

those are all good observations

I'm fine with whatever way this woman wants to run her relationships with her friends. That's her business and not mine.

However, she decided to write an academically-toned mini-dissertation, using emotionally antiseptic academic language, on how relationships ought to be run, using her relationship with a particular friend as the subject matter and posted it to the universe via Twitter. This clearly invites public scrutiny and judgment on her published Twitter essay, which unavoidably devolves into a discussion of the subject matter she chose: her personal relationship with her friend. So, we find ourselves veering between criticizing her academic analysis and criticizing her personal behavior. Which ensuing dynamic she probably didn't think through very well and could have avoided easily enough.

xp - ok good!

sarahell otm about the newness of conversational sensitivity to the listener wrt touchy subjects. some people are in a place to be able to tolerate more than others. i have been exceptionally sensitive recently, whereas some years ago i was almost insensitive because i had developed a thick wall of...get ready...emotional numbness. :-/

i kinda doubt this thread is having any effect on her whatsoever btw

also drunktexting as a thing with separate rules? idk ... i have my moments tbh

i kinda doubt this thread is having any effect on her

ofc she has no knowledge of this thread, but if we're doing it, chances are some corner of twitter is doing the same thing we are, but less sensitively, and authors are known to read what their audience says about them. whether that bothers her, I don't know.

she is an academic and has 25k followers on twitter i think that she is aware that people will criticize what she says lol

there is a piece on jezebel about it. the comments are a bit better than the article. https://jezebel.com/the-overuse-of-emotional-labor-turns-all-relationships-1839958498

in my own personal experience i find myself either shielding people from my emotions or being way too TMI about my personal catastrophes, so maybe some transactional language would help me find some kind of balance there

re-reading some of the thread in Twitter got me a bit aggravated, less so in the Jezebel article, because I felt like people kept talking past each other. I think most everybody took umbrage at the self-aggrandizing nature of the Tweet, the Homer-esque length of the tweetstorm, and some of the cold, mechanical language used. But some (and if I weren't banned on Twitter at the moment, I may have too) took some of those comments to mean it was suggested that they need to be available 24/7 for their friends.

Which, to me, kind of signals to me they've had that happen to them before, so they're a wee bit on edge. Which I can understand. I went through this last year with one of my best friends. She would often call me multiple times a day to vent, sometimes for 30-45 minutes at a time, often without me being able to say more than a few words. Now, this was largely due to her ASD and not intentional. She is a sweet person that, due to that, needs to say things out loud to another person, as it helps her make sense of what is stressing her out. I often didn't enforce boundaries as strictly because I wanted to help. But that was a mistake as it built up expectations of constant availability so when I did actually begin enforcing boundaries, she resented it because it was a 'change' to our relationship - as opposed to if I'd set them properly from the beginning.

I think part of the problem is too many channels of availability, as someone mentioned in Jezebel. This has been the hardest thing for me - I was often the guy who needed that disengagement time at the end of the day, growing up. You went home from school and unless you had plans with your friends or called them on the phone...you just had radio silence for a bit. Maybe an email or two, but nobody expects urgency with those.

Nowadays, there are endless ways to get in touch with people, there is a much more urgent expectation of response as a result, and of course these methods inconveniently tell the other person when you've read their message, which makes your inaction actually send a message in itself. With this friend above, I had to be careful not to read the message until I knew I would have time to reply, because if I read it and didn't reply, it would upset her. There are times I need to unplug from and disengage from the world (he says as he types on a message board at 10 pm) and these days, if you do it, you often get met with either animosity or concern. Example, two of my friends almost called the police for a welfare check on my mother once because she was emotionally spent that day and was not answering or looking at the phone, and two friends called her. They viewed her non-answering as an obvious emergency and were ready to call the cops until one called back again and my mom yelled "WHAT?" into the phone.

anyway.

Ok so with Facebook messenger you are stuck with the “seen/unseen” feature but on yr phone, like that is optional. Why would you use that option? I sure don’t.

Yeah I was gonna say. I have 1 friend who has the "message read" option on and I just assume he's not even aware of it.

But anyway it's ridiculous to think you have to respond to any call or text. Anyone who puts that expectation on you, fuck em

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJ33z2AUUAAhXWU?format=jpg&name=large

I don't use it on my phone to be clear. In fact..messenger has become so ubiquitous in my community that I rarely get "texts" anymore,

Most folks i know prefer using Messenger for everything!

Omg lol at graphic

i just turned off read receipts for whatsapp. People do get mad or they do a "did I do something wrong?" if you don't respond to several texts even if in the la di da here is what i am doing right now category.

read receipts are diabolical

Man I would just feel so pathetic if I gave someone shit or whatever for not immediately responding to texts

My soon to be ex stopped replying to my texts in re to payment. Big fat lol.

I have the opp issue. I send messages and dread getting responses

I've been trying to go back to mostly email. So I can be better with being more thoughtful, purposeful and complete, instead of so much back and forth that kind of interrupts anything I may be doing.

xpost did you lend your soon to be ex money?

He needs to pay half of cost kids. Which is never gonna happy. But I still try arrange some payments. I’ll try once more. But tbh it’s not worth the hassle. I rather get on w my life than wasting energy on this.

There's an old saying about getting blood from a turnip, to the effect that attempting to do so is an exercise in futility, that may apply here.

We say: you can’t tap wine from a water barrel. But yeah.

I've been experiencing this lately and it's unnerving. I thought I was floating along doing okay in the pandemic, because I wasn't feeling a lot of sadness. Starting to realize it's more like I'm in a thick fog of okayness where everything around me is cushioned and nothing can hurt. It's weird and I don't like/trust it.

The very old, sweet dog who belonged to my housemate but who I'd been walking every day and pretty much taking care of for more than a year got very sick suddenly last week and had to be put down. My housemates were crying off and on for days. And yeah, they've lived with the dog for longer than I have, and I walked him so I knew this was coming, but I loved him and should have had some emotional reaction to his death by now and I just - don't.

Yesterday I had a long conversation with my parents about what they would want re: medical care if they should develop dementia in the future, and it should have been an emotionally taxing conversation but it wasn't; I was completely detached. I adore my parents and thinking about their future decline usually fills me with anticipatory grief. Something is definitely wrong here.

Related, I think: I am missing my ability to write. I can't tap into my instinct for what words/thoughts feel right. Haven't posted on ILX much lately because I look at what I've written and it just looks like a jumble of words and not worth posting.

My guess is that this is some form of pandemic depression. I'll give it some time and see if it lifts. Maybe it will. Thanks for listening.

Have you ever read up on dissociation or burnout? Emotional numbness is a feature of both. I’ve been there and you’re right — it’s scary and feels terrible to not be able to feel. Neither dissociation nor burnout are irremediable but it’s important to recognize what’s going on. These are tough times. Take care lily!!

this may not be applicable to your situation but parts of this resonated with me, have sometimes had feelings of being disconnected

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/19/well/mind/covid-mental-health-languishing.html

What you describe reminds me of depression while on anti-depressants. If it were happening to me, I could take it as a warning of a more severe depressive episode coming on.

Lily Dale I'm so sorry you're experiencing this. I struggle with this feeling on and off all of the time (I remember posting here when my aunt died wondering why I wasn't more sad).

When you get overloaded, sometimes your brain can do this as a measure of self-preservation, but it feels terrible that you're not 'feeling' things which ironically, in a way, feels worse, because it creates compounding guilt. definitely can hurt writing too, which sucks - if you don't have feelings to tap into, sometimes you can feel like what you're writing feels mechanical.

I will say that while everybody's experience is different, for me, it's never permanent. feelings have come back (I was very detached last year, this year, I've almost compensated too much in the other direction). the important thing is to let yourself off of the hook, as you can't control your internal reactions to things. it's a shitty thing to experience, but it's definitely not your fault.

much love , Lily!

Thank you, you guys! You are lovely people. I posted that in the middle of the night while lying awake thinking "wtf is wrong with me?" and it means a lot to wake up and see such kind posts in response.

I've only experienced real, severe-ish depression once, and it was triggered by burnout at work and didn't last all that long in retrospect. So I'm hoping this will get better rather than getting worse, but I'm taking it as a warning sign.

Related, I think: I am missing my ability to write.

fwiw, from my perspective, no you haven't! :)

with regards to recent things that seem like they be prompting an immediate emotional reaction, but aren't - i think it's definitely worth keeping an eye on, if it's out of the norm for you. but also, i think it's pretty common, and it doesn't necessarily point to a deeper "problem". i should probably pause and read the rest of the thread, because i'm sure someone's talked about this in a better way, but there's a blurry line (for me) between compartmentalization of traumatic things, dissociating/burying, or what i think of as "dealing" with them in the moment (or something). i'm not sure how it's supposed to work, but i've grown comfortable with not having the "correct" reaction in the moment, because there's more than one way to pet a cat (my preferred alternative to the outdated idiom)

<3

also, just fyi to you or anyone else reading this: we have a depression thread on 77 (google-proofed, non-indexed) that's always been really, REALLY helpful for me, both in my bad times and also reading about other people's experiences and how they're trying to adapt.

Thanks, Karl! It's probably time I joined the 77 board; I don't know why I haven't yet. Yeah, I have a hard time telling what's worth worrying about. I thought at first it was just, idk, toughness or practicality or something, but I don't think it is, because the emotional reaction isn't so much delayed or contained as it is nonexistent. But hopefully this is just a short-term pandemic mood. We're six weeks from the end of the school year, which is never a good time for teachers.

I feel sort of weird writing all these words about - what? Feeling fine? Like I'm asking for sympathy that ought to go to someone who actually feels bad. But it's really helped just documenting it and getting confirmation from you all that this is a thing that happens to people and it's not necessarily nothing.

Neanderthal, I really appreciate your post, and I feel bad because you posted about something like this a couple of months ago and I was trying to be helpful but I didn't really get it at the time. I don't think I really understood what you were describing or how scary it is to feel like you're losing your ability to empathize. I'm sorry if I was thoughtless. I'm glad to hear that the numbness hasn't lasted for you.

Yes, keep an eye on this and consider talking to a dr if it goes on too much longer. And consider whether it’s not just the emotional lows you’re unable to experience but also the highs - are there things that are still bringing you joy? I remember having a stark realization I was experiencing anhedonia while standing in a very fancy hotel room my husband had booked for us for what was supposed to be a special weekend away, looking at the gorgeous view and just feeling absolutely nothing. It’s pretty disturbing.

That does sound disturbing. I experienced something like it a few years ago when I was on a birth control that had depression and anxiety as a side effect. I had been asked to give a talk on a book that I love, and I had chosen to talk about what an extraordinarily happy book it is. I realized as I was standing in front of this class giving the talk that everything I was saying - about the joy that's central to the book, about my own love for the book - had become completely inaccessible and meaningless to me. I just had to sort of hope that what I was saying made sense because I couldn't feel it.

I haven't been experiencing that so far - just a feeling that the positive stuff doesn't have that much meaning or intensity because the negative stuff isn't there. Like I'm missing some of my emotional points of reference.

But actually - cross fingers, knock wood - I'm feeling better & more human this week than I have in the past month or two. I think pushing through the brain fog & the words that didn't feel right and posting here really, really helped - just acknowledging that something was wrong and looking directly at it, and then the kind and understanding responses, all made me feel like this was something I could/should actually address. And then my cousin - the one whose life I fear for daily because of her abusive boyfriend - managed to leave AK for a twelve-day trip and stayed with me for the weekend and we spent a lovely and completely normal-feeling three days walking around outside and hanging out with friends and family. And the sheer normality of that, the chance to spend time with someone I've been terribly worried about, and the brief reprieve from worrying, seems to have reset my brain in a much-needed way, at least for the moment. I don't know how long this will last, but I have a sense now of what to keep an eye on. Thanks again to all of you.