Male culture

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Yesterday morning on Radio 4 Doris Lessing was on complaining about the rubbishing of men in our culture. One of the points the woman opposing her sorry I forgot her name), made was that we are being brought in a culture where male violence is celebrated.

Being a soft, fluffy liberal,'new' man I gave a hearty (masculine)snort at that, 'not in this house it ain't' I thought. However at work today I'm reading FHM (be a real man, cor look at those jugs) and listening to the obnoxious Chris Moyles on Radio 1 'listen love you stick to doing dishes..' and I'm thinking she may have a point.

― Billy Dods, Thursday, 16 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

But Billy, surely you don't celebrate Chris Moyles?

― Nick, Thursday, 16 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

What seems to me to have happened - very very glibly - is a move from a culture where one gender is denigrated routinely and expected to live up to absurd stereotypes, to one where both genders are denigrated routinely and expected to live up to absurd stereotypes.

We do also live in a culture that sometimes celebrates violence, full stop. And yes, most violence is carried out by men. But the celebration is not overtly of the masculine properties of violence, it's of violence as a neat and unanswerable way to achieve a goal.

― Tom, Thursday, 16 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

lad culture = co-opted and reclaimed answer to quasi-feminist all-men-are-rubbish theory

Andrea Dworkin: [insert, er, i mean, organically, envelopingly, supportively and nurturingly append appropriate dworkinism]
Chris Moyles:whatever you say love [behaves exactly as AD describes...]

― mark s, Thursday, 16 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I think the womans job has done an amazing job providing other roles for woman aside from the sifiling traditions.
I think we need something similar for men.

― anthony, Thursday, 16 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

ie teaching yr nephew to bake :)

― mark s, Thursday, 16 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I agree fully with Tom.

― Lyra, Thursday, 16 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Okay i have now crumbled under your pressure. Today we are going to bake choclate brownies . See what your pressure brings ?

― anthony, Thursday, 16 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Well, yeah, surely that "lad culture" reclamation is based on the current attitude that it's somehow funny or glib or "not-PC" to be "masculine" in these traditional ways. But those reclaimers never seem to stop and think about whether those attacks on traditional masculinity/misogyny might actually have something of a point. Not to pull Nazis into everything, but it really does remind me of, say, punk '77 flirting with Nazi/fascist symbols, basically in an effort to feel good about tweaking an older generation that died fighting those symbols. The reclamation may seem fun, but you're reclaiming things that are better off left un-reclaimed.

So now it's just glib and self-consciously masculine masculine misbehaviour...

― Nitsuh, Thursday, 16 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

OK though, maybe we should rename the thread "male culture: search and destroy" because I think a lot of lad culture - starting with, uh, the pub - is very redeemable, AND the kind of easy banter that lad culture made fashionable again, guys outdoing each other with gags instead of cash-flashing or fist-throwing, is very much also what powers the fun threads on ILE.

Not to mention lad culture in the 90s prompted a lot of the re- examination of the father-son relationship that's been going on, which is pretty urgent and key. And there is a lot to admire in the toughness of 'traditional' masculinity, too.

And some of it - adoration of petty crims, routine denigration of women, anti-intellectualism - is bad. Probably lots more too.

And some of it - the sex stuff, mostly, I'm really not sure about. Because being honest and open about liking sex is better than not, but you have to have the space to be honest and open about the stuff you don't like, too, and LOADED etc. isn't that space.

So can the good stuff in male culture be separated from the bad?

― Tom, Thursday, 16 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I feel visions of The Sex Revolts looming in my head. Help!

To answer Tom's last question -- separated? Doubtful -- but the good stuff celebrated for what it is, certainly. A large part of me thinks it's all down to good manners in the end.

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 16 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

lad culture always seemed to me more of a reaction against 'new man', which was a mythical beast anyway and as Tom say's it ain't all bad.
Takes more than doing the dishes or ironing a few shirts to become that mythic beast, takes a whole reassessment of the role of the male which for most they're unable or unwilling to do. The role of the lad is prob easier to aspire to (and more fun), as it has that 'rebellious' streak (whatever that is - men behaving badly?) which seems to me to be more an abdication or postponement of responsibility/maturity.

― Billy Dods, Thursday, 16 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

DUD. Because I don't see how any "cultural" activity can be associated with a gender without promoting some sort of exclusion, even if one doesn't consciously exclude. Also DUD because it gets taken for granted as CULTURE in general, which is subtly off-putting to females, even to females who might have been sympathetic to whatever-it-was in the first place. I think we'd be more advanced as a species if we didn't associate behaviors with sexes and instead went out of our way to do things that confuse the hell out of people. Take it from someone who frequently gets blank stares when she does something that is characterized as "male", even from the most self-congratulatorily "liberal" of comrades. We are so far behind on this one....

― Kerry, Thursday, 16 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

OK, the word "reclamation" may make it sound like I'm all for it, and so may using Dworkin as foil: anyone who mocks her = on the right lines etc etc. But I'm saying, no, Moyles actually AGREES with her (I mean, genuinely, even tho he has quite poss.never heard her name), and so does Lad Culture. As in, Men = irredeemable rubbish, so why bother kidding ourselves we can change. Conclusion: let's all have a larf!!

Main prob with New Man-ism was its old- skool fam.val het orthodoxy (not a jibe at you Billy): the interesting jag in New Laddism is its tentative flirtation with elements in Queer Culture, New Lad/Ladette bonding trying to feel out towards a Happy Fuck- Buddy Equality-Autonomy...

OK, I know it's easy to shoot this down. But I think it's there, in among all the obviously rubbish stuff.

― mark s, Thursday, 16 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Kerry, I don't know about society improving, but life tends to be more fun when you try to confuse the hell out of people.

― Lyra, Thursday, 16 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Andrea Dworkin is actually quite "laddish", judging from the bits of her novels that I've read. Or, at least in the passages I read, there was a demonstrated ability to identify with "lads".

And I suppose I should add here that I'm not a fan of hers, although her fiction has been repeatedly recommended to me by people who don't like her otherwise.

― Kerry, Thursday, 16 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Search: pool.

Destroy: overpriced drinks.

― Sterling Clover, Thursday, 16 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Which elements of queer culture do you mean mark?

As one of the old school- fam vaue het orthodoxy (though I only accept the het part) I don't feel qualified to comment. Is it the hedonistic aspect you mean, i.e the rejection of above orthodoxy or to use the current parlance 'largin' it'.

― Billy Dods, Thursday, 16 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

"Happy Fuck-Buddy Equality-Autonomy..."

Largin' it sexually, maybe, but at the same keeping it quite strictured emotionally: pretending free-and-easy neverc has a pay- off. Fuck and to and still be pals: you did it, you didn't, what's the diff? Equal opportunity banter abt fancying, shagging, what you did, and how you walked away, no worries. Which I might add is an illusion in QueerCult too, but an much easier one to sustain. Or more necessary (collectively) to sustain. Does this make sense?

Kerry: good pt abt Dworkin, and yes, she is a bit too EASY-LAZY an icon of "feminist error", and misleading because SO one-note. Her "laddism" was not the aspect of her I had in mind, so much as her assumption of total male irredeemability. But maybe they are not so unconnected anyway?

(Anthony, I did not mean to bully you: but who can argue with brownies?)

― mark s, Thursday, 16 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

"Fuck and to" = "Fuck and go"/and my idea is that that free-and-easy, in act and in speech, certainly exists w/i gayboy and gaygirl world, the ability for the talk not to encroach too much on WHAT HAPPENS NEXT (panic panic), because (supposedly) it's not a deal so much what happens next, yay, nay, who care who remembers. Well lad-ladette culture — inc.this board, and why I like it — also yearns for that semi-utopian state.

Except except except except: except look wo its role models are and wonder why it comes not about quite yet

― mark s, Thursday, 16 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I think queers also have a very honest and explicict sexual code, There is an ettiqutte that is understood. We talk about sex wit halot more honesty and clarity.

― anthony, Thursday, 16 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Exactly. (With the caveats that this is not true of all queers, sadly, and that the culture as a whole can also be snobby and exclusionary and shallow). Homophobia is partly fuelled by envy, via a clutcha myths abt promiscuity (where it happens and what it's like), and a LESS myth-bound intuition abt the good stuff anthony's citing.

Lad-ladette culture = torn between mimicry (admiration) and homophobia (envy).

― mark s, Thursday, 16 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Her "laddism" was not the aspect of her I had in mind, so much as her assumption of total male irredeemability. But maybe they are not so unconnected anyway?

Perhaps not. I know that she went through a phase of extreme sexual libertinism - going so far as defending incest and bestiality (in Woman Hating). She must have had a bad experience or two during that time. Maybe she contracted rabies or something.

― Kerry Keane, Thursday, 16 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Oh, I should also add that many people have commented on Dworkin's competitiveness with men and her x-tra large ego, all the while being frequently dismissive and patronizing of women.

― Kerry, Thursday, 16 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Is there not ONE straight male here who will admit to even the teensy- weensiest bit of enjoying privilege and using whatever means to hold on to it? Come on, let's have a bit of candor for once! And if 'violence and anti-intellectualism' are bad things to be shunned, then how do some of you explain your interest in pop music?

― dave q, Friday, 17 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Enjoying privilege? *scratches head* Uh, no, not really. Don't want it anyway!

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 17 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

seventeen years pass...

beards

― daenerys baker (darraghmac), Monday, 20 May 2019 19:20 (six years ago)

i dunno, some food i guess

― daenerys baker (darraghmac), Monday, 20 May 2019 19:21 (six years ago)

probably watchin somethin or listenin to something, or reading a book or a magazine

― daenerys baker (darraghmac), Monday, 20 May 2019 19:22 (six years ago)

wearing clothes

― daenerys baker (darraghmac), Monday, 20 May 2019 19:22 (six years ago)

having teeth

― daenerys baker (darraghmac), Monday, 20 May 2019 19:22 (six years ago)

blinking in order to keep ones eyes moist

― daenerys baker (darraghmac), Monday, 20 May 2019 19:22 (six years ago)

the awareness of oneself as separate to say for instance the floor or that couch

― daenerys baker (darraghmac), Monday, 20 May 2019 19:23 (six years ago)

otm

― Yerac, Monday, 20 May 2019 19:23 (six years ago)

taut alertness at the scent of prey

― daenerys baker (darraghmac), Monday, 20 May 2019 19:23 (six years ago)

bloodlust

― daenerys baker (darraghmac), Monday, 20 May 2019 19:23 (six years ago)

swords def swords, things made out of metal that signal danger, shaped like a phallus if it can at all be hinted

― daenerys baker (darraghmac), Monday, 20 May 2019 19:24 (six years ago)

posts very male in culture

― nashwan, Monday, 20 May 2019 19:24 (six years ago)

noticing any of the above and being troubled

― daenerys baker (darraghmac), Monday, 20 May 2019 19:24 (six years ago)

scared now

― daenerys baker (darraghmac), Monday, 20 May 2019 19:25 (six years ago)

unsure.

one paw out but not quite....touching

― daenerys baker (darraghmac), Monday, 20 May 2019 19:25 (six years ago)

lol nashwan

― brimstead, Monday, 20 May 2019 19:25 (six years ago)

to kill ones father and to shake his head at his advancing enemies, pleading that it suffice

― daenerys baker (darraghmac), Monday, 20 May 2019 19:26 (six years ago)

Unruly nostril hair.

― Ned Caligari (Tom D.), Monday, 20 May 2019 19:27 (six years ago)

the way you imagine nixon smelled

― daenerys baker (darraghmac), Monday, 20 May 2019 19:27 (six years ago)

clothes that dont touch anywhere

― daenerys baker (darraghmac), Monday, 20 May 2019 19:28 (six years ago)

the carving of a space with every stride, word, keystroke, thrust yes

― daenerys baker (darraghmac), Monday, 20 May 2019 19:29 (six years ago)

Do non-American men have beards?

― pomenitul, Monday, 20 May 2019 19:35 (six years ago)

no never

― daenerys baker (darraghmac), Monday, 20 May 2019 19:36 (six years ago)

only american taco trucks

― Yerac, Monday, 20 May 2019 19:36 (six years ago)

Just checking, thanks.

― pomenitul, Monday, 20 May 2019 19:36 (six years ago)

some mayo women mind

― daenerys baker (darraghmac), Monday, 20 May 2019 19:37 (six years ago)

Counterpoint

http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/mp/a0gzj67A7ASl.jpg

― specific goats my way (Noodle Vague), Monday, 20 May 2019 19:39 (six years ago)

I once heard un-American men have beards as well, still waiting for confirmation.

― pomenitul, Monday, 20 May 2019 19:41 (six years ago)

ugh beards

― daenerys baker (darraghmac), Monday, 20 May 2019 19:44 (six years ago)

https://www2.b3ta.com/fp-archive/host/8680997-1.jpg

― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Monday, 20 May 2019 19:49 (six years ago)

cute little trucks
anti-dog spray
knowing everyone on your route
friendly card at Christmas

― ☮ (peace, man), Monday, 20 May 2019 19:53 (six years ago)

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ed/00/26/ed00267f0a46a67f277b9ab14b0a8575.jpg

― pomenitul, Monday, 20 May 2019 19:54 (six years ago)

Assange.

― Ned Caligari (Tom D.), Monday, 20 May 2019 19:58 (six years ago)

man bags, bags for men

― daenerys baker (darraghmac), Monday, 20 May 2019 23:14 (six years ago)

saying i'll have to think about that and then not thinking about it

― remy bean, Monday, 20 May 2019 23:15 (six years ago)

implements with which to kill butcher and grill animals in the man bag

― daenerys baker (darraghmac), Monday, 20 May 2019 23:16 (six years ago)

xp yeah, good

but yknow probably meaning it at the time maybe too?

― daenerys baker (darraghmac), Monday, 20 May 2019 23:17 (six years ago)

'i'll have the last slice if nobody else wants it'

― remy bean, Monday, 20 May 2019 23:19 (six years ago)

the fear of missing a turn eating into your ability to behave like a human on any new journey every turn nearer the end destination merely a banked missed disaster raising the stakes turn down the fucking radio i cant think

― daenerys baker (darraghmac), Monday, 20 May 2019 23:19 (six years ago)

to be bought things like slippers that chide you slyly into domesticity but to soothe the disquiet by eating somewhere concrete and wooden

― daenerys baker (darraghmac), Monday, 20 May 2019 23:22 (six years ago)

shorts are tshirt pants

― daenerys baker (darraghmac), Monday, 20 May 2019 23:28 (six years ago)

Cultivating friendliness towards one's spider housemates.

― pomenitul, Tuesday, 21 May 2019 10:58 (six years ago)

....

― daenerys baker (darraghmac), Tuesday, 21 May 2019 12:38 (six years ago)

the way you imagine nixon smelled

finding this post particularly upsetting tbh

― michael keaton IS jim thirlwell IN ‘foetaljuice’ (bizarro gazzara), Tuesday, 21 May 2019 12:45 (six years ago)

A heady comingling of Prep H and pine air fresheners, surely.

― 5 favrite kind of animal. jaguar. giraffe. (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 21 May 2019 12:48 (six years ago)

its a rorschach smell test for sure

― daenerys baker (darraghmac), Tuesday, 21 May 2019 13:04 (six years ago)

Teed that up for you, didn't I.

― 5 favrite kind of animal. jaguar. giraffe. (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 21 May 2019 13:25 (six years ago)

lookit as well criticise newton because relativity was already there waiting to be uncovered

― daenerys baker (darraghmac), Tuesday, 21 May 2019 13:29 (six years ago)

anti-dog spray

hahahaa

― mick signals, Tuesday, 21 May 2019 15:28 (six years ago)

nixon smale culture

― i got bag sauce in my bag (Sufjan Grafton), Tuesday, 21 May 2019 17:12 (six years ago)

TS: smell of Nixon vs. smell of Stone's Nixon back tat

― 5 favrite kind of animal. jaguar. giraffe. (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 21 May 2019 17:23 (six years ago)

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